WAG Illinois Central?
Thx IGN
A two parter... Which steam RR got engines from the South Shore, and which steam RR did the South Shore get engines from?
rcdrye Chicago and Indiana Air Line Railway. This is not to be confused with the Chicago and New York Air Line. If my memory serves me most of the original C&IAL was the Indiana Harbor branch, which was discontinued prior to the South Shore era.
Chicago and Indiana Air Line Railway. This is not to be confused with the Chicago and New York Air Line. If my memory serves me most of the original C&IAL was the Indiana Harbor branch, which was discontinued prior to the South Shore era.
We have a winner. I really have to come up with tougher questions. rcdrye, you have the next question.
I will remain true to my avatar. What was the name of the South Shore Line's earliest known predecessor?
All power to you Mr. South Shore, and please let us have your question!
All of North America. U.S. Mexico and Canada. The furthest point west in Mexico by rail is Mexicali, BC if I remember correctly. Most of California and British Columbia is west of Mexicali if I remember correctly.
The furthest west one can go by rail in North America is Prince Rupert, BC. Yes Alaska has rail but one needs to go by barge or boat to get there.
Rgds IGN
narig01 al-in-chgo: Just a guess--Lazaro Cardenas, on the Pacific Coast of Mexico? Al I said North America. Rgds IGN
al-in-chgo: Just a guess--Lazaro Cardenas, on the Pacific Coast of Mexico?
Just a guess--Lazaro Cardenas, on the Pacific Coast of Mexico?
Al I said North America.
Johnny
CSSHEGEWISCH I will go with Prince Rupert, BC on the Canadian National.
I will go with Prince Rupert, BC on the Canadian National.
I was looking and wondering about the BC Rail extension north which if it track is ever put in would be just a little further west in Deese Lake, BC. But alas it is graded but no track.
Anyway you have the next question.
al-in-chgo Just a guess--Lazaro Cardenas, on the Pacific Coast of Mexico?
I think Prince Rupert is correct.
The next question:
Something easy.
On the North American landmass name the western most point of contigous rail service.
IE by rail and not on a barge or car float.
Truth be told I completely forgot about the B&M .
In addition rcdyre is correct that the NYC crossing to Rensselaer is a double track crossing and still is today.
6 Tracks in tunnels to NYC. The 2 PATH tubes and the North River tunnel into Penn Station.
2 Tracks @ Poughkeepsie.
4 Tracks for the NYC Selkirk & Albany.
1 Track @ Mechanicsville D&H. B&M
2 Tracks @ Ft Edward one each for D&H and Rutland
2 tracks for An unknown double track streetcar in Albany to Resselaer. (Albany Southern ?)
I did try to trace any lines that crossed the headwaters of the Hudson in the Adirondacks and could not find any. I may be wrong on this thou as their are several mine operations that I am aware of that have had rail service but I could not find.
I think that makes 17 tracks.
Albany/Rensselaer bridge has two active tracks. The Wye to the former east side line to Troy connects to the north track.
The joint CP/PAS (read that D&H/B&M) bridge near Mechanicville is double track. The D&H line to Troy had a bridge across Green Island just south of Troy that's now gone.
glad that the poughkeepsie bridge question has been resolved, effectively one track at end of WWII and of course none today. The D&H branch well north of Albany is now a short line railroad, and I think the bridge still exists with only one track. As far as I know both NYC bridges across the Hudson in the Albany area had two tracks at the end of WWII. Does the track used by Amtrak have only one operable track today? I do believe there was one and only one pair of streetcar tracks crossing the Hudson in the Albanya rea at the end of WWII. The interurban north of there had long been abandoned. Witht he answes, we should come to a total.
nariq01 should summarize what we know and ask the next question.
From memory and looking up a few things. Rail crossings of the Hudson and North River:
PATH to World Trade Center. 2 tracks
PATH to Christopher St. 2 tracks
Pennslvania RR into Penn Station. 2 tracks
New Haven crossing at Poughkeepsie. Not sure how to count this as this was a gaunlet track on bridge but effectively single track.
1 or 2 tracks
New York Central / Boston and Albany at Selkirk, NY 2 tracks
New York Central at Rensselaer, NY. Currently used by Amtrak? 1 track
Delaware & Hudson at Ft Edward, NY 1 track
Rutland I think also crossed the Hudson at Ft Edward 1 track.
I would suspect that their might have been either an interurban or streetcar crossing in the Albany area.
And I'm not sure if any D&H branches crossed the headwaters of the Hudson going into the Adirondacks.
Of course if one really wanted to have fun include all the scheduled maritime crossings of the Hudson River! (I will not be even tempted to try as it is outside my range of knowledge about even where to begin)
And don't forget that the NYC's bridge across the Hudson to Albany Union Station was removed after they started using Albany-Renssalaer station around 1968.
Using the Hudson River crossings 50 and 100 miles from the city shouldn't count here as they don't constitute direct or sole entrance to NYC.
But note Poukeepsie Bridge was double tracked then gauntlet tracked and finally in the late 50's I believe single tracked.
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Wonderful and historic posting and worthy of a separate thread, not really very applicable to this one.
I note that that there were 38 tracks crossing the East River at the close of WWII. The six trolley tracks were removed. Hell Gate Bridge now has three active tracks, although a fourth unused is still in place, but not connected at least at one end. Two remain electrified and are used by Amtrak, and one has the catenary missing, is maintained by CSX, and sees CSX, CP, and P&W freight, to interchange with New York and Atlantic who provide freight service on LIRR.
That represents a loss of seven tracks, with Brooklyn Bridge having zero tracks at the present time.
Two tracks are active in the new 63rd Street tunnel, mamking a net loss of five, gving 33 as the answer.
Two more will be activated for LIRR Grand Central access.
So how many tracks crossed the Hudson at the end of WWII and how many today? Actually, I am not sure of the answer, because I don't remember if Poughkeepsie Bridge was ever reduced from two tracks to one and if so when.
Don't forget, the Hudson River begins quite a bit north of Albany.
narig01 Or as my grandfather the mayor said(the man who kept the nickel subway) on his election to Mayor I'll drink to that!! Thx IGN
Or as my grandfather the mayor said(the man who kept the nickel subway) on his election to Mayor I'll drink to that!!
New York Central Lines Magazine, February 1930.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/magazine/magazine.htm
Mayor Starts New York City's Huge West Side Improvement
Forty years of talk crystallized into action at noon, December 31, 1929, when Mayor Walker and President Crowley in the presence of other officers of the municipality and of the New York Central Railroad formally launched the "West Side Improvement" in New York City.
Briefly summarized, the essential fact about the "West Side Improvement" is that it will, when finished, take the railroad's tracks off of all streets in the metropolis. Incidentally, it will also take street traffic out of the way of the New York Central, though no one except railroad people seems to think about that. As a corollary of the mutual efforts of city and corporation to get out of each other's way, many other important things will be accomplished. Leaving details for discussion hereinafter it may be said that the whole character and appearance of the West Side in New York City will be transformed by this notable improvement. But to get back to the events of December 31.
In response to the joint invitation of Mayor James J. Walker and President Crowley, a notable crowd assembled on Eleventh Avenue near Sixtieth Street to see the ceremony which was to initiate the work of removing the railroad tracks from the surface of this street in the borough of Manhattan while simple, were, nevertheless, of so much current and historic interest that they were recorded in both silent and sound motion pictures. According to the evidence of the latter, Mayor Walker said:
"Mr. Crowley, on this very important occasion, greater than any other in my recollection as a life-long resident in the City of New York, I bring to you as President of the New York Central Railroad Company the congratulations of the City of New York for the very fine spirit in which you have approached the final elimination of what has for years been known as 'Death Avenue' tracks. Your splendid spirit of co-operation has made it possible after forty years of difficult struggle to bring about the elimination of these tracks not only for commercial advantage but for prevention of the destruction of life and limb.
"This is one of the oldest portions of Manhattan Island, one in which I have a sentimental interest, having been born on the West Side of Manhattan Island myself. No longer will we speak of 'Death Avenue' but of the West Side of Manhattan, the greatest avenue of commerce and traffic in the City of New York.
"On behalf of the City I bring you this official and grateful recognition of your very fine attitude and the splendid way in which you have co-operated with the City.
"There is just one sad note in this great undertaking today and it is that the very distinguished and estimable gentleman who so long served the railroad company over which you preside is not present. As long as life remains with me I shall remember that splendid personality, that noble character, that superlative mind that contributed so much to the State of New York and the City of New York, Mr. Ira A. Place.
"There is nothing that I would not give because of my admiration and appreciation of Mr. Place to have him present with us today. I well know since 1912 when I introduced in the legislature a bill for the elimination of 'Death Avenue' how Mr. Place labored, how devoted he was to his obligations to the railroad company and the great civic pride that he manifested on all occasions for the City of New York. In his memory, thanks to your generous invitation, we now mark the first step in the elimination of 'Death Avenue' and the creation of the finest avenue of commerce to be found in this broad land."
At this point, Mayor Walker picked up what his aides called a "crowbar," with which he pulled the first spike for the removal of the first rail from Eleventh Avenue. It may be said in confidence in this connection that the Mayor did not use a crowbar to draw the spike but a standard clawbar such as is commonly used on the New York Central and, indeed, on certain other railroads for drawing spikes. Anyway, the spike was drawn. Having accomplished his share of the joint labor, the smiling Mayor turned the clawbar over to President Crowley, who said as he grasped it:
"I thank you for your compliments, Mr. Mayor. For forty years this West Side Improvement has been talked of. Now the time for talk has passed and the time for work is here." Then a gang of laborers drew the other spikes and ripped out a section of rail.
Spikes to Be Gold Plated
That was all there was to it. The camera men ceased operating their cranks and shutters and attendants took charge of the two historic spikes that had just been drawn to be goldplated and preserved as mementos.
With Mayor Walker at the ceremony were Transit Commissioner Charles C. Lockwood, Charles F. Kerrigan, assistant to the Mayor; Charles S. Hand, the Mayor's secretary; Rabbi Nathan Krass, of Temple Emanuel; John F. Curry, Major John F. Sullivan and numerous officials from several branches of the city government.
With President Crowley were R. E. Dougherty, his Engineering Assistant, who will have charge of the elimination work; Vice Presidents R. D. Starbuck, G. H. Ingalls and Charles C. Paulding, General Superintendent F. N. Melius, D. W. Dinan, General Manager, Line East of Buffalo, and two score or more of department chiefs and other officers. Mrs. Ira A. Place and her son, Willard F. Place, were also present. A large crowd of other spectators on the railroad tracks, the street adjacent and in the open windows of tenements in the neighborhood also witnessed the ceremonies.
A police detail of ten sergeants, one hundred patrolmen, four mounted men, two traffic sergeants and ten traffic men were in charge of Deputy Chief Inspector Bolan and several inspectors, captains and lieutenants, while the New York Central police were represented by twenty men in charge of Sergeant Jennings.
Part of the stage setting for this notable event in the history of the City of New York and of the New York Central Railroad was the last locomotive and passenger car to pass over this particular stretch of track. The engine was No. 5283 in charge of Engineman J. H. Lyons of No. 2360 Third Avenue and Fireman W. O. Colbert of 239 West 230th Street. William Williams, Road Foreman of Engines, was also on board the locomotive. In charge of this last train was Conductor William M. Polly of Croton, who has seen twenty-four years of service on the West Side, with R. J. Gray as Brakeman.
The last train backed slowly into the yards. Five minutes later two lengths of track had been removed and engineers were setting up their instruments on the spot.
The aggregate cost, when every detail has been completed, will be approximately $175,000,000. Of this sum about $110,000,000 must be borne by the New York Central, $50,000,000 by the City of New York and $15,000,000 by the State of New York under the terms of the Grade Crossing Elimination Act.
The plan provides for removing the tracks of the railroad company from the surface of the streets on the West Side of the city and placing them south of Fifty-ninth Street in a subway to Thirty-fourth Street and on an elevated structure south of Thirtieth Street.
To Abandon St. John's Park
The tracks are now situated, as they have been for many years, on the surface of Tenth and Eleventh Avenues and West Street, crossing a large number of streets at grade and running at grade from St. John's Park to Sixtieth Street. The agreement provides for the abandonment of St. John's Park as a railroad freight station and the construction of a new freight terminal at Spring and Washington Streets on property purchased by the railroad company for that purpose. From this new freight terminal
north, the tracks will be taken off the streets and carried on a viaduct parallel to Washington Street, on land owned by the railroad company. In order to take trucking off the streets the agreement provides that the New York Central shall build and maintain at its expense an arcade upon the company's property. The viaduct on which the tracks are carried will extend north on an elevated structure built on property belonging to the railroad company east of Tenth Avenue to Sixteenth Street, crossing Tenth Avenue between Sixteenth and Seventeenth Streets, and then north to Thirtieth Street on property one hundred feet west of Tenth Avenue.
The present yard, now extending from Thirtieth to Thirty-seventh Streets is to be entirely reconstructed, not only as to tracks but for the improvement of all facilities. North of the Thirtieth Street yard, that is, from Thirty-sixth Street, the tracks will be located in a subway on property owned by the railroad company, between Tenth and Eleventh Avenues, crossing under all streets with no change in the street grades.
Where the tracks are carried across streets running east and west, south of Thirtieth Street, they will be on a viaduct not less than fourteen feet above the surface of the streets upon a plan which has been approved by the Transit Commission. Construction of the tracks in the method outlined will remove them from the surface of ninety streets and will enable those streets to revert to their proper use as highways.
The railroad owns and operates a railroad yard between Sixtieth Street and Seventy-second Street. North of Seventy-second Street to Spuyten Duyvil the tracks are now at grade with the exception of those grade crossings which have recently been eliminated at Manhattan Street and Dyckman Street where they have been elevated.
Under the agreement with the city the tracks will still remain on grade, excepting at Seventy-ninth, Ninety-sixth and One Hundred and Fifty-eighth Streets, and such streets as now cross the tracks at grade will be carried over on bridges.
This is the general description of the changes to be made in the railroad tracks, and if the story stopped there, it would appear as if all the advantages to the city were summed up in the statement that the tracks will be taken off the streets; but the agreement goes much further and provides for various improvements which are to be made by the city, some at its own expense and some at the expense of both the city and the railroad company.
Twelve city structures are provided for in the agreement, three of which are to be erected at once, coincidentally with the work of changing the railroad tracks, and the remainder at times at which the city wishes to erect them. The entire cost of the twelve structures will be approximately $49,045,000 but this amount will not be spent by the city at once or, perhaps, for many years.
The structures to be built at once are, first an express highway over the Sixtieth Street Yard, a plan which has been in the mind of Borough President Miller for some years, and which was authorized by statute passed by the Legislature some years ago. Work on this has begun. Second, the extension of West Seventieth Street crossing, the Sixtieth Street Yard and, third, carrying the express highway from West Seventy-second Street to West Seventy-ninth Street, with a connection at West Seventy-second Street to Riverside Drive. The total cost for these three improvements is approximately $6,000,000. Provision is made in the agreement for extension of the express highway over the tracks as far north as a point a quarter-mile north of the Harlem Ship Canal, and for the extension of West One Hundred and Forty-fifth Street crossing the tracks on a bridge. It is agreed that the railroad will pay about onehalf of the cost of this last work when it is done.
Reciprocal Advantages
The city gets the tracks off the streets and the cost to the city for this is small in proportion to what it would cost to carry the tracks on viaducts over east- and west-bound streets south of Thirtieth Street. It gets an express highway from Sixtieth Street north over railroad property. It gets the right to extend West Seventieth Street, crossing the railroad property. It gets the right to cover the railroad tracks north of Seventy-second Street as far as Seventy-ninth Street and a substantial contribution by the railroad company toward this work.
The city is to grant to the railroad company for railroad use certain land now owned by the city, chiefly the land which now constitutes parts of streets which under the agreement are to be discontinued and the railroad is to grant to the city, not only a certain option to lands, but is to give up forever the rights and easements which it possesses to the occupancy of a large amount of city property.
Whenever the city wishes, it has the right later under the agreement to cover over the tracks all the way to the Harlem River, including covering the railroad yard at Manhattanville and that, of course, will add the covered portion to the city's park area. When this is done the city's park area will have had eighty acres added to it and the city will be further enabled to develop its park system west of the railroad tracks.
The first contract for the improvement was let on December 16 to the Arthur McMullen Company. This contract provides for the rearrangement of facilities at the southerly end of Sixtieth Street Yard in order to clear the way for subway construction. Here the main tracks will be depressed at the entrance to the yard. A new milk yard and new facilities for handling automobiles will be provided at Sixtieth Street. The milk yard between Twenty-ninth and Thirtieth Streets and Ninth and Tenth Avenues will be abandoned so that erection of the proposed new building for the United States Post Office may proceed.
A considerable amount of work in connection with electrification has been in progress for some time, for no more steam trains will be operated on the West Side after improvements have been completed. This work includes construction of new shops and engine terminal facilities at Harmon for the accommodation of the new equipment to be used on the West Side. Orders were placed some time ago for thirty-five new oil-electric and forty-two electric locomotives.
The West Side work will be in charge of J. M. Doorly, under the supervision of F. B. Freeman, Chief Engineer, New York Central, Buffalo and East.
The data is all there and all you need to do is do the simple addition and subtraction. Or should I ask another question?
So you have the correct data, freight "track." So go and answer the question!
Again I'm doing this from memory.
The 60th st was opened I thought in either the late 1950's or early 1960's. The thing I remember about this connection is the cut across from the Astoria line to the tunnel was patched into the subway trackage on the Queensboro Bridge.
As to the Hells Gate Bridge. If I remember correctly CSX has what is now the freight track. I am not sure what kind of arrangement is enforce for this setup.
Also on another subject the CSX has donated the last segment of the Highline has now been donated to NYC all the way to 34th St.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-24/nyc-to-extend-high-line-park-after-donation-of-rail-yards.html
Apparently a hint is needed. What tunnel was opened after 1962 and how many usable tracks does it have NOW. (Not in the future,) How many tracks in my review above were streetcar and when was New York City's very last streetcar line abandoned? Iin 1962 there were four electrified tracks on the Held Gate Bridge, all owned by New York Connecting Railroad and operated and maintained by the NYNH&H. Now Amtrak owns and maintains two electrified tracks for passenger service. What about freight service? Now you should be able to answer.
You are close, for end of WWII
Hell Gate Bridge: 4
60th Street BMT tunnel 2
Queensboro Bridge streetcar 2 (not 1) (underground term. at 2nd Ave)
53rd St. E, F tunnel 2
42nd St. "Steinway" tunnel, "7" 2
LIRR-PRR 4
14th St. BMT "L" 2
Williamsburg Bridge BMT subway 2
Williamsburg Bridge streetcar 2 (underground terminal at Delancy-Essex)
IND "F" Essex St. tunnel 2
Manhattan Bridge BMT 4
IRT West Side line 2
Brooklyn Bridge streetcar on old elevated r/w 2
IND "A" Fulton St. tunnel 2
IRT East side line 2
BMT tunnel and Nassau Cut 2
Earlier in the war there would have been 42, with the addition of the 2nd Av elevated on the Queensboro Bridge, and both elevated trains and streetcars on the Brooklyn Bridge on s eparate tracks.
Total 38 at the end of WWII. Now take a look at what was added since WWII and what has been removed, and whoever comes up with the right answer for current operations wins.
Guess: 43...don't forget the 4 on Hell Gate and the single trolley track on the Queesnboro Bridge.
OK. here is the math: Current oprations: 3 between CI and DeKalb, 2 between DeKalb and Bway Manhattan (tunnel & Man.br.), 60th St and 63st tunnels to Queens, exp and local in Queens, 3x2x2x2=24
1 Dekalb - W4th, 2 W4th 53rd St tunnel (6th&8th Avs), Exp and local in Queens, 3x2X2=12
1 Dekalb-W4, 1 W4th - 63rd St tunnel, exp and local in Queens 3X2=6 (6th Avenue)
2 CI-"F" Jay St (exp & lcl between Church and 9th St., 2 Jay-W4th (F&A), 2 W4th-53rd+1W4th-63rd,3, 2 in Queens, 2x2x3x2=24 *8th Av connects only to 53rd to Queens, 6th to both 53rd and 63rd
2 CI - Smith 9th (exp and local). 1 via G to Queens, exp and local in Queens 2x2=4
1 DeKalb - Willliamsburg Br.-Jamaica =3. So, 24+12+6+24+4+3 = 73 OK?
Going back to 1962, we loose all 63rd St possibilities and the connection betwen DeKalb and W4th
Subtract 12, 6, 8 (via J Street, 2x2x2), 73-26=47 During the time the switch was in to the Culver shuttle to 9th Avenue, we would add another CI-DeKlb connection, tunnel and Bridge to Manhattan, 60th St tunnel, locdal and exp in Queens, adding 2x2 = 4 for 51 possibilities,. OK?
How usable tracks crossed the East River at the end of WWII (tunnel and bridge, trolley, rapid transit, rail) and how many now?
Yes please.
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