Was the Penn Texas name ever used by any RR southwest of St. Louis running the through cars from the PRR train?
rcdrye Using a 1960 official guide as a base I come up with: Chicagoan: Dallas-Oklahoma City-Kansas City -Chicago (AT&SF 112-12-12). Chicago-New York (NYC 60). No companion (south)west-bound, as Chicago-KC-OKC-Dallas was the Kansas Cityan. City of St. Louis/Spirit of St. Louis: Los Angeles-Kansas City-St. Louis(UP/WAB 10). St. Louis-New York(PRR 30). This one might be a bit of a reach. I'm assuming "Mail and Express" (several candidates) doesn't cut it.
Using a 1960 official guide as a base I come up with:
Chicagoan: Dallas-Oklahoma City-Kansas City -Chicago (AT&SF 112-12-12). Chicago-New York (NYC 60). No companion (south)west-bound, as Chicago-KC-OKC-Dallas was the Kansas Cityan.
City of St. Louis/Spirit of St. Louis: Los Angeles-Kansas City-St. Louis(UP/WAB 10). St. Louis-New York(PRR 30). This one might be a bit of a reach.
I'm assuming "Mail and Express" (several candidates) doesn't cut it.
You got one - the Chicagoan. There are two others - another clue: The other two was basically one train that went through several renamings in a short period of time.
rcdrye After a lot more thinking I came up with the Blue Arrow/Blue Dart (NKP Cleveland - St. Louis) and the Bluebonnet (Frisco/Katy, St. Louis - various texas cities). If you don't sweat the southwest part you have the B&O's Columbian (J.C. - Washington -Chicago) connecting with the CMSP&P's Columbian (Chicago - Seattle/Tacoma)
After a lot more thinking I came up with the Blue Arrow/Blue Dart (NKP Cleveland - St. Louis) and the Bluebonnet (Frisco/Katy, St. Louis - various texas cities).
If you don't sweat the southwest part you have the B&O's Columbian (J.C. - Washington -Chicago) connecting with the CMSP&P's Columbian (Chicago - Seattle/Tacoma)
You have the right idea of what I'm looking for - focus on southwest-northeast services. Here's a clue: two of the train pairs I'm looking for existed in the in the mid-1940's, the other pair in the 1960's.
I think you get the nod for the toughest questions - at least that tax guys like me who only go back a little more than 50 years...
The only pairing I could come up with was Erie's Atlantic/Pacific Express (Hoboken - Chicago) paired with the Pacific Limited (C&NW or CM&SP (1920's) and UP/SP Chicago - San Francisco. Pretty long wait in Chicago, at least westbound.
I tried to create something with a Southwestern, but could only get NYC-St. Louis (NYC) and Chicago/Milwaukee - Kansas City(MILW). Amtrak ran 3&4 as the Southwest Limited before it got re-Chief-ed.
BTW I had forgotten the Milwaukee-Marquette sleeper, which I'm pretty sure was exchanged at Champion as well, since DSS&A didn't get to Republic. In the last few years of the Copper Country as a DSS&A train, the power choice on DSS&A rails was MILW units (FP7s or GP9s) or DSS&A RS1s. I have to assume any Soo units assigned after 1961 (if any) were GP9s.
Here's the question.....
There were at least three instances where you could have traveled from the southwest to the northeastern part of the U.S. via more or less connecting trains that had the same name. Name the trains, railroads and endpoints.
So, ZO, nest question. Sorry rc.
ZephyrOverland has the correct answer. The Copper Country Limited carried Pullman sleepers for Sault Ste Marie (Pembine WI, MSP&SSM) and Calumet MI (Champion MI, DSS&A). Since the Soo ran its own sleepers, this may have been the only Soo Pullman operation.
So, rc, next question pleased. Glad you provided the answer!
rcdrye As far as I know, the only one of the "fast" Chicago-Twin Cities carriers to handle sleepers for the Soo/CP was the C&NW on the Viking in the 1930s. ...
As far as I know, the only one of the "fast" Chicago-Twin Cities carriers to handle sleepers for the Soo/CP was the C&NW on the Viking in the 1930s. ...
The C&NW did operate through Soo/CP sleepers via the Viking, but the C&NW also operated a through train for the Soo/CP, the summer only Chicago-Vancouver Mountaineer.
rcdrye Now for the question. Which Milwaukee Road train handed off sleeping cars to two different CP subsidiaries at two different places?
Now for the question. Which Milwaukee Road train handed off sleeping cars to two different CP subsidiaries at two different places?
The Copper Country Limited
Chicago-Calumet sleepers were sent via the Duluth, South Shore and Atlantic from Champion, MI and a Milwaukee-Marquette, MI sleeper was also exchanged with the DSS&A at Republic, MI.
There was also a Chicago-Sault Ste. Marie sleeper that ran via the Soo east of Pembine, WI.
I was hoping someone else would come up with the correct answer. I tired exploring CP hiltory on the web, but did not find the specific information. But I still have to take the time to explore CMStP&P history.
As far as I know, the only one of the "fast" Chicago-Twin Cities carriers to handle sleepers for the Soo/CP was the C&NW on the Viking in the 1930s. I'll give you the Soo as one CP subsidiary, though (but where was the car going?) The Soo connection, which in later years ran less than daily, came off in the late 1950s, the other one hung on until the late 1960s.
I think the overnight Chicago - St. Paul PIoneer Limited had a through sleeper on the SOO that may have continued through to Vancourver or at least to Calgary or Winnipeg. Handed over at St. Paul. If this is correct, I will get to work on the second half of the question.
rcdrye The CA&E cars had fishbelly sides and arched roofs. The fishbelly sides allowed a wider carbody without hitting the El platforms. Like the IT cars and North Shore's Electroliners (which also had fishbelly sides) they came from St. Louis Car.
The CA&E cars had fishbelly sides and arched roofs. The fishbelly sides allowed a wider carbody without hitting the El platforms. Like the IT cars and North Shore's Electroliners (which also had fishbelly sides) they came from St. Louis Car.
First things first, it's called the "L". An El is an elevated rapid transit operation in New York that predated the subways. CTA equipment beginning with the 6000 series has had curved sides or a similar design that allows a wider carbody that still clears the platforms. The width difference is most obvious on the first 130 6000 series cars with flat doors.
The Santa Fe cars had fishbelly underframes. You are correct that the CA&E's postwar cars had curved sides like the Cincinnatis (See Wheeling 639 at the Seashore trolley museum www.trolleymuseum.org ). CTA's 5000 series articulateds had similar sides, often referred to by Chicago area fans as "fishbelly". The Electroliners had them, too.
Ask the next question. YOu do not mean fishbellysides. Fishbelly sides are like the wood Sante Fe cars that were rebuilt as steels with sides extending below the side sills in the area where truss rods were in wood cars to provide addidtional strength. The older IRT subway cars, including the GIbbs cars, that originally did not have center doors, got fishbellies when rebuilt with center doors to restore strength. But the cars originally built with center doors did not need this type of side.
Commonly, the type of side the postwar 1946 C&AE cars had is called curved-side. It was typical of some older horsecars and streetcars, revived with "Cincinnati Curved Side cars," and allowed a thiner side wall with great strength, as well as the additional roominess you mentioned.
The biggest problem I know of with the IT cars was that they wouldn't fit on some of IT's trackage. IT had 55 foot radius curves in the subway wye in St. Louis. The cars could take the curves as singles, but not as a train. There was a similar problem that kept them from operating in Peoria, requiring IT to use an older car as a shuttle from East Peoria to Peoria.
rc, you are correct and listed two groups of real interurban cars, cars that operated across country, and not just within the suburbs of one city. Shure, the NJT River Line is a diesel interurban line, but I think it was pretty obvious that I meant classic interurban, and that means electric power. I would also classify the new St. Louis light rail line to Belleville as a true interurbna line, and the Denver Light Rail line to Boulder, which does replicate the route of a classic interurban, but neither of these operated 50 years ago, the subject of this forum.
rc: Can you describe in detail the problem with the IT cars and why they were not the success the Electroniners were for the North Shore?
What was the distinctive characteristic of the CA&E cars, unlike other CA&E and North Shore steel cars?
The H&M was a separate company and if the PRR had part ownership, it was a minority ownership. The Newark - Hudson Terminal was a jointly operated through service with half PRR crews and half H&M crews. 50 cars were owned by PRR and 50 idejntacle cars by H&M. This applied to both the Gibbs cars and the post WWII air-conditoned K-class. The cab signal and ATC equipent from the 1930's was taken from the Gibbs cars and reinstalled in the K's. All track west of the Journal Sq. yard was PRR-owned, and the yard and all track east H&M-owned.
Illinois Terminal's stramliners should count. CA&E's "St. Looies" (451-460) were delvered in 1946 and could train with the Pullmans and Cincinnatis.
Oh, yes, H&M was owned by the PRR and all their underwire running on 3rd rail was on PRR tracks.
As for the question about last true interurban cars. You have excluded the Pittsburg Ry's cars but where do you place the SEPTA High Speed Norristown line (Phila. and West) or the 101 and 102 Media and Sharon HIll trolley lines and the NJT RIver LIne Camden to Trenton and some of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail over former lines Erie-NYC (WS)-O&W and over CNJ's Newark Branch? There could be good arguements for them being interurbans between towns and over private rights of way. Would you, therfore, consider qualifying "interurban" as performing steam road services and not just passenger?,
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Glad to catch up on an electrication extension that I hqd forgotten. TRAINS had an article on Central Station about 40-50 years ago, which I read, and certainly the whole electrification history must have been included. But I had long forgotton that history.
Again, Henry, the PATH tracks that had the wire were PRR tracks with everything west of JOurnal Sq. yard owned by PRR. And steam, electric freight, diesel, and MP-54's all used the line, inlcuding Lehigh Valley steam and diesel.
Soooooooo........Next question: Name the last two sets of TRUE INTERURBAN CARS built for North American operation, OTHER THAN THE 1700 CLASS PCC'S FOR PITTSBURGH RAILWAYS. (Which provided true interurban service Pittsburgh to and from Charleroi-Roscoe and Washington, PA.
Railway Co., dates, routes used. Any problems with them should also be mentioned.
Both sets post WWII!
wanswheel's great photos prompted me to look up dates in J.R Thomas Grumley's "Montreal & Southern Counties Railway Co." (Bytown Railwy Society 2004) and William Middleton's "When the Steam Railroads Electrified" (Revised, Second Edition Indiana University Press 2001). The suggestion to use the inbound GT track was made in 1921, prior to the electrification, so the incompatible electrifiation wasn't an obstacle to using the GT's track. The Central Station to Turcot Yard electrification was in place from 1943 to 1958, handling trains from the new Central Station to the Maritimes and Vermont (CV, Rutland) . The M&SC dropped service into Montreal over the victoria Bridge June 1955, and all service October 1956. Serves me right for not checking before offering the quiz. The Adirondack does use the bridge, which has a very interesting detour bridge over the St Lawrence Seaway canals on the east end, probably dating to Seaway construction(and post-electrification.
Montreal & Southern Counties Railway
daveklepper is correct. The Victoria bridge was electrifed to the wye in St. Lambert where CN steam (or in the case of the Green Mountain Flyer, Rutland steam) took over. For a good photo of the changeover see Jim Shaughnessy's "The Rutland Road". The electrification was never used for suburban purposes, only mainline, and was removed after the end of team, or maybe after the opening of Central Station replacing Bonaventure. Today's Adirondack and Ocean use it, and the Montrealer used it from 1972 to 1995. According to my M&SC book, the track connection was only on the east (St. Lambert) end. At some point in the teens, a proposal was floated to make a connection on the Montreal end to allow bidirectional running on the bridge, which is quite long. Between the requirement for left hand running and having incompatible electrical systems, nothing came of it. The GT/CN had the tracks inside the truss, M&SC was single track on the outside.
The CN replaced M&SC service with diesel service in 1955 using FM C-liners and rebuilt heavyweight coaches. M&SC 504 and 610 are on display at the Seashore Trolley Museum (STM also has 621).
daveklepper Henry. I think you are right that the PRR-H&M joint service and the DL&W did not share a bridge. There is a point where their rightofways, today, are adjacent, as you know.
Henry. I think you are right that the PRR-H&M joint service and the DL&W did not share a bridge. There is a point where their rightofways, today, are adjacent, as you know.
I kinda recollect that the PRR and H&M had two Hackensack bridges and shared at least one, the northern most of the two perhaps, probably about a mile west of Journal Sq. complex. And I remember the wire over the 3rd railed H&M track right adjacent to the DL&W at Kearney where the Corridor went overhead...it was a scant couple hundred feed. Saw Tube trains on the track, but never a PRR train under the wire there. The Broker, incidenlty, was always seen on the bridge further south and higher than the rest of the trackage in the area. Smoke or Sharks...loved to pace the Broker!
Thinking North American, you are undoubtadly referring to the CN Bridge leading to Montreal Island, locaton of the City, and used by the old Montrealer-Washingtonian and Ambassador to reach Central Station, possibly used by today's Amtrak Adorondak, but the old Laurentian, Red Wing, and Alloouette, used a different (CP) bridge to Miontreal West and Windsor Station. I believe today's VIA Ocean uses the bridge, plus lots of freight. I was not aware that the existing Deux Montains electrification ever ran south of Central Station, but it you say it did, I have to believe you. The interurban was the Montreal and Southern Counties, which was a CN subsidiary or at least partly owned by CN, and it also handled freight and there definitely was a track connection on the mainland side of the bridge . I ran M&SC No. 9 green wood interurban car at the Branaford Trolley Museum, now the Shore Line TrolleY Museum. I am prettty familiar with that line, even though I never rode it. But the idea that the CN Mt. Royal Tunnel electrification at one time extended south is news for me, and any information you can provide will be welcome. I think the bridge had three tracks, with the interurban only requiring one track.
DL&W and H&M shared a bridge???? Where and when? I can't concieve of where or why of this. Also, H&M could not be considerd interurban but rapid transit. Interurban indicated single or double single car sets but not trains; often just a motorman or motorman and conductor only crews; single track between cities or towns; low station platforms; fare collected on board.. Rapid transit, such as H&M, was train sets, double track, motorman plus conductor and maybe other trainmen, high level platforms at specific stations; fare collected at station turnstyles.
I am wracking my brain and can't think of where the DL&W and H&M would have shared a bridge. At Kearney, in the Meadows, the two come close together with H&M sharing an underpass area at one point. There is no place else the two get close enough to need to share space.
I wasn't aware of the DL&W/H&M bridge, though H&M wasn't really an interurban. Like your previous question about the QRL&P, think "North American". As an added detail, there was a track connection between the interurban and steam road on the east end of the bridge. The bridge is on the edge of a large city, and the home base of the interurban was on the "wrong" end of the bridge. I'm pretty sure the remainder of the 2400 volt DC electrification was changed to AC in the 1990s - in fact the public agency that now runs it shared the work on the AC/diesel design NJT has for former DL&W lines. The bridge in question lost its electrification in the early 50's, and the interurban in 1955.
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