Nope--not close. I am looking for a three railroad route between Fargo and Minneapolis.
Keeping checking the pre-WWII O. G.
Ed Burns 763-234-9306
call me and I might give you a clue.
daveklepper I guess that the Mineapolis Northfield and Southern must be one of the four, since it was planed as an electrified interurban. With that in the mix someone else can figure the rest.
I guess that the Mineapolis Northfield and Southern must be one of the four, since it was planed as an electrified interurban. With that in the mix someone else can figure the rest.
Thx IGN
Well--put on your thinking caps and look at a pre-1943 or so "OG".
I will give your two clues:
1. The last railroad had the names of two Minnesota cities in its' name.
2. What is the subject of the newest "Classic Trains"?
Ed Burns
763-234-9306
All:
No even close. Think of he trip as a right triangle.
One clue: Two sides of this right triangle are: Minneapolis-Ortonville-Fargo via MILW.
What are the three railroads from Fargo to Minneapolis?
OK I'll give it a try with a route I've come up with after a bit of OG surfing. And yes I agree with Eddie that it would be quite an adventure!
NP - Mpls-St Cloud
GN - St Cloud-Paynesville
Soo - Paynesville-Fairmount
Milw - Fairmount-Fargo
Mark
rcdrye I can account for: GN direct NP direct CMSP&P via Ortonville SD
I can account for:
GN direct
NP direct
CMSP&P via Ortonville SD
I agree with these three routes and would add GN trains #11&12 between Mpls and Fargo via St. Cloud.
However I think Eddie's latest post indicates he is looking for a way to make a single trip between Mpls and Fargo (and return) using four different railroads and the locations where you'd have to change trains. It's going to take quite a bit of OG browsing to dope this out.
Hi:
Nope--not close.
Look at an "Official Guide". You will being transferring stations four times on your adventure.
I am an ATCS Host in Anoka, MN and can answer most questions about the former BN in the Twin Cities area as I was Roadmaster's Clerk for five years.
My remaining guess would be Soo Line, most likely via Enderlin ND - that would be the one torn up.
I feel honored to be part of this forum.
My previous post about passenger trains between Minneapolis-Fargo-Minneapolis was incorrect.
Prior to 1943 or so, one could take FOUR passenger routes between Minneapolis-Fargo-Minneapolis.
Name all four routes with junction points.
Have fun!
P. S. A small hint--a short part of one railroad's still exists, but as a spur track.
The next question NP Eddie.....
NP Eddie has the correct answer. The NP's contribution to the Cascade's Seattle cars was the two 10-6's. The other cars in the Seattle pool were SP 4-4-2s and 22 Rmt. The 12DBRs were all SP cars (my mistake) and only ran to Portland. The cars actually ran in GN-NP-UP pool trains between Seattle and Portland, oddly enough often southbound in the GN train and northbound in the UP train.
SP was also a bit double-minded about named and numbered cars, but in later years all cars not assigned to the Golden State were numbered.
I am an NP-BN-BNSF Clerk from Northtown (Minneapolis).
To clear up some confusion, I submit the following, based on Wayner's book "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists".
The Northern Pacific did indeed have two (NP 364 and NP 365) 10 and 6 sleeping cars. They were purchased for the joint NP-SP sleeping car pool between Seattle and Oakland. I have seen a picture of one of the cars painted SP colors, but letter "Northern Pacific". After this pool was discontinued, the two cars were repainted NP Loewy green and used in the North Coast Limited sleeping car pool, although this fact was not published in the public timetable. I read that one of the 10 and 6 cars is in BNSF service as a power car/sleeping car for the executive train.
The Slumber Coaches were used both on the Main Streeter and NCL. Two of the NP cars were sold to the CBQ to equalize mileage. Those NCL cars made a Chicago-Seattle-Chicago round trip. I assume those cars were switched in and out of the DZ as per Wayner's book mentions. Those Slumber Coaches were also used on the Blackhawk instead of the regular Pullman's. As far as the Main Streeter was concerned, I would have to do research, but I suspect the westbound Slumber Coach off the BH was added to the Mainstreeter in St. Paul for movement to Seattle and the eastbound Slumber Coach was switched off the eastbound Mainstreeter in Minneapolis for BH movement that evening.
I do know that the Slumber Coaches were used as dormitory cars after about 1967 or 1968 when those cars operated into and out of Seattle due to the speeded up schedule after the mail was removed.
John Straus's Northern Pacific last passenger book (Volume 5) has a more complete explanation of the above.
763-234-9306 and an ATCS host in Anoka, MN
I believe the North Coast Limited began running Slumbercoaches around 1959, and they later showed up on the Mainstreeter. They were pooled with the CB&Q's "Silver" series Slumbercoaches on the Denver Zephyr, so one would see NP cars frequently on the DZ. The Q also used a Slumbercoach on the American Royal Zephyr in 1967-68 before it went coach only, then on the Black Hawk at the end. They were the best bargain in travel and they are missed. Yes, it was unusual NP didn't name its sleepers. SP was another road that used numbers only for many of its cars.
The June 1954 OG doesn't show a single 10-6 or 12 DBR sleeper running on any NP train. Perhaps the NP ran such cars earlier in the 1950's but they sure aren't shown in the forementioned OG.
Incidentally, it seems unusual that the NP named their slumbercoaches but not their sleepers. I would expect just the opposite.
The cars do appear in Wayner's book, but not in the NP section. These were NP's only cars with these accomodations.
According to Robert J. Wayner's Car Names Numbers and Consists, there was also B&O's Sleepland, which became Loch Long.
I cannot find in either Wayner's book or in From Zephyr to Amtrak mention of the NP's having 10-6 or 12 bedroom cars. I cannot, right now, get to my Guides of that period (I just moved, and many of my boxes are blocked by others), but I do not believe that the NP operated cars with those accommodations. The SP did have cars with several different accommodations that lost their names in the period 1949-1951.
Johnny
All of the NPs slumbercoaches were named in the Loch series, including the ones that Budd had formerly leased to the NYC, MP and B&O. The names were applied for Pullman operation, but the cars were primarily identified in Pullman list by number, like the NYC&St.L's "City" sleepers. Info below from an NRHS bulletin.
325 Loch Sloy
326 Loch Sleven
327 Loch Lomind
328 Loch Ness
330 Loch Katrine (MP Southland)
331 Loch Long (B&O Sleepland)
332 Loch Lochy (B&O Thriftland)
333 Loch Tay (NYC 10800)
334 Loch Rannoch (NYC 10801)
335 Loch Arkaig (NYC 10802)
336 Loch Awe (NYC 10803)
This is just an aside note, not an answer to Rob's question. Yesterday I read an article in a back issue of Classic Trains which includes a narration of the author's 1967 trip on the North Coast Ltd. He reports that the sleepers on the train were all numbered but un-named but the single slumbercoach in the NCL consist was named the Loch Ness. I wonder if all NP slumbercoaches were named.
During the Pullman Company's long service the vast majority of non-tourist sleepers were identified by name. One of the companies that had lightweight sleepers identified by number only was Northern Pacific. Around 1950 NP put names on most of their Pullmans, but placed into service some new 10&6 and 12 DBR cars with numbers only. What train were these cars assigned to?
NP reverted to numbers pretty quickly with the 1954 dome 4-4-4 cars.
Johnny has really put me to the test answering his questions so I don't have a new one in mind at the moment. I also have another question working on the Part Deux thread so I'll pass the baton. Anyone having a question they're dying to post please step up and take over for me.
Mark, you pass, magna *** laude. Even though Jonathan Wainwright was a general officer, in charge of the American forces in the Philippines. he received no better treatment than the men under him, and, when he was freed, he was little more than skin and bones. I do not remember seeing any positive staement as to why he wanted the Emperor's horse, but I believe that what you have said is very close to his reason.
Colonel Elliot Springs (USA, not Kentucky) was something of a character. He was the head of Springs Mills, which processed cotton into many items, particularly Springmaid Sheets. I believe that at one time the L&C did operate passenger trains, but it never had a diner, so the menu was absolutely fanciful.
If you have had time to come up with a question (you had to spend some time in answering mine), please shoot it out.
Deggesty Very good, Mark. Can you expound upon General Wainwright's request for the Emperor of Japan's horse? Why was he interested in obtaining the horse?
Very good, Mark. Can you expound upon General Wainwright's request for the Emperor of Japan's horse? Why was he interested in obtaining the horse?
I can only guess why he wanted the horse. After surrendering at Corregidor Gen. Wainwright and his wounded, diseased and mal-nourished troops were forced to march through the streets of Manila as a show of the Japanese superiority. He then spent three years of brutal confinement in a Japanese prison camp and was only freed when the war ended in 1945. I think he may have wanted that horse to ride it through the streets of Tokyo as retribution and to show that the Allied troops were really superior to those of Japan.
Deggesty Mark, you are exactly right. However, since you are the one who answered correctly, you must tell us what the white horse was (no, it was not a supply of White Horse Whisky) that Admiral "Bull" Halsey was vice president in charge of supplying, what was his credential that put him in charge of it, and who (if possible, expand upon his requesting it) requested the white horse?
Johnny, I was not aware of the Springmaid line's whimsical menu but when you mentioned VP of Unveiling I remembered Gypsy Rose Lee had been one of the roads honorary VP's. After a bit of Googling I found that Adm. "Bull" Halsey had been VP in charge of White Horse Supply. The white horse he was to supply was Emperor Hirohito's horse which Gen. Johnathan Wainright expressed a desire for and Halsey was selected for this task because of the role he played in defeating Japan and was present at the signing of their surrender on board the USS Missouri in 1945.
Johnny, that would be the Lancaster & Chester RR and Gypsy Rose Lee was the burlesque queen who was one of its VP's.
Sense of humor? Yes, the president of the road had quite a sense of humor; one of the surgeons lived in Wyoming, as I recall, and the road was entirely within one of the southern states. There was a vice president in charge of unveiling (well-known at the time for personal unveiling); she pulled the veil off the new office building when it was ready to be used.
Most difficult. I am trying to think of railroaders who might own and operate railroads and still have a sense of humor!
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No, the road was subject to the ICC, but not to the FCC.
I never saw such items on a Southern diner menu.
I regret that I did not obtain a copy of the menu, even though I asked an employee of the road if he could get one for me; perhaps I should have walked into the office building and asked for one (I thought about doing so, but did not).
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