Wait another minute! The Flying Yankee!!!! Budd/EMC!!!! See now resting (rusting) at Conway, NH.
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I took a minute to check my collection and I only have a 1927, 1958, and a 1969 issue of the Guide...and they of course show nothing.....so I am going to make a guess it to be the B&M's Minute Man, possibly with new RDC cars.
Gathered that by now....so will be checking things out when I get home!
Early on I advised that you would have to think outside of the box to answer this question. Apparently no one has heeded that advice so far. Here's another tip that should help. The train I'm looking for was not a NYC (B&A) train.
Mark
daveklepper That is exactly the train I described, and I said what I would name it. Proabably by the time I rode the overnight sleeper to Buffalo, a lot of trains had been combined. But the time you set is exactly when the train i am referring to did run, and for the specific purpose of giving people from Albany through Worcester most of a day in Boston. I am not even sure the train I rode was called the Berkshire. But you described the late afternoon train I rode.
That is exactly the train I described, and I said what I would name it. Proabably by the time I rode the overnight sleeper to Buffalo, a lot of trains had been combined. But the time you set is exactly when the train i am referring to did run, and for the specific purpose of giving people from Albany through Worcester most of a day in Boston. I am not even sure the train I rode was called the Berkshire. But you described the late afternoon train I rode.
Dave, I commend you for your efforts but that isn't the one, and I seriously doubt that you ever rode the train I'm looking for. You, and Johnny and Henry before you, have made a wrong assumption in attempting to answer this question. Had someone else posed this question, I too would probably have made the same mistake.
I've already given the scheduled running times of the train and I'll add that it was listed in the 1946 OG's as a "Diesel Motor train". That's 2/3 of the answer so it just remains to identify the train.
That is exactly the train I described, and I said what I would name it. Proabably by the time I rode the overnight sleeper to Buffalo, a lot of trains had been combined. But the time you set is exactly when the train i am referring to did run, and for the specific purpose of giving people from Albany through Worcester most of a day in Boston. I am not even sure the train I rode was called the Berkshire. But you described the late afternoon train I rode. That it had a through sleeper was a result of train consolidations, long after the the train was dieselized. And as a coach only train, possibly with a diner-lounge-parlor, or separate parlor and diner, it would have drawn a J2a Hudson. In 1946 it would not have had lightweight equipment, since the postwar refurbishment still consisted of cars on order but not delivered. The New England States at various times left around 2 or 3 pm in the aftenoon. The Buffalo sleeper was on a train that left around 4:30 or 5:30pm., maybe as late as 6pm. When I rode, I suspect that eastbound the sleeper was not on the eastound conterpart of the train, but added either to the New Engnland States or the train still running at the time known as The New England Woverine, much of the time not a separate through train, but part of the Woverine detatched at Albany to run to Boston. I also once did ride the train you are mentioning eastbound, but by that time it was an RDC car, and I do not recall even if it had a name other than the usual Central's "Beeliner.". I think the train-off petition was not approved, but the sleeper was dropped (or possibly moved to the NES), and the train converted to an RDC car or cars for a few more years of operation.. The New England Wolverine was also discontinued, and its through cars shifted to the NES, which quit the lakefront bypass of Cleveland and began stopping at the Terminal. IN 1946 there was probaly a Buffalo Night Expess from Boston, possibly with through cars to Toronto, leaving around 8 or 9 or 10 in the evening, and there would have been no need to put the sleeper on "your" train. I rode the RDC remnant of "your" train from Pittsfield, but I believe it did originate in Albany. I recall now that the engineer was friendly, and I was able to enjoy the Berkshire scenery from the front platform!.
This is the last hint I'll be giving today.
The train ran only between Boston and Albany and did not carry any through cars to or from any other points. It made a daily round trip leaving Boston early in the morning and returning from Albany late in the afternoon/early in the evening.
In 1946, the New England States was the premier train on the route, and it was still heavyweight, all-Pullman, and steam-hauled. Indeed, all the trains I knew at that time were steam-hauled. And I have a hard time believing any steam-hauled train could make the run under four hours, either direction. The first RDC was produced in 1949, and the B&A of the Central did get the first one in regular service. But not as early as 1946! I was unaware of any lightweight diesel train on the B&A in 1946. Obvously, someone with an OG fo 46 can look up the train you want and come up with the correct answer, so I gues I have to defer to someone with the right OG. It may have been a summer-only vacation special out from Boston Friday evenings and returning Sunday evenings for people wishing to spend the weekend in the Berkshires, with Pittsfield being a major destination.
Dave, I enjoy reading your recollections of trips you have taken, however none of the trains you have mentioned are the one that this question refers to.
The following may help you or someone else in coming up with the answer. The scheduled running time between Albany and Boston of the train I'm looking for was 3 hrs - 55 mins. It's time in the opposite direction was 4 hrs - 25 mins.
Recall that by the time I rode it, the Central was operating its own sleepers, not Pullman (except certain interline cars). An E7 or E8 A unit was the power, and all equipment was lightweight except for head end equipment, But in 1946 the power would have been a J2a Hudson or a Mowhawk, and the consist would have been regular heavyweight coaches, a diner, and two or three Pullmans probably through from Toronto and well as Buffalo, and possi bly a parlor car or parlor-obs.
I mentioned the fast connection to the Empire State Express My memories of the B&A are those of one living in the Boston area, and I have shared my memories of specific trains in the responses given above. But perhaps if I had lived in Albany, rather than just visit occasionally, I would have known of a fast morning train to Boston with a return in the evening, giving people in Albany, Pittsfield, Springfield, and Worcester the opportunity to spend most of a day in Boston on a one-day round trip. It would leave Albany about 6:30 AM, arrive Boston around 10:30AM, leave Boston later than the NES, around 5:30 or 6pm, getting to Albany well before 11pm. If I were to name such a train, my first choice would be The George Washington Whistler, and the second choice The Berkshire. Come to think of it, I think I rode the train westbound once, and it carried a through Buffalo sleeper that I used for traveling to a project in Buffalo. And yes, I think the name was The Berkshire. And there was a train-off petition at the time! I had forgotton all about that trip! I treated myself to a double-bedroom, on the basis of avoiding hotel cost. I had not prepared for the lack of a dining car at the time, found the cafe service food miserable, and ended up using station time in Springfield and Albany to buy snack food to end the hunger pangs. The sleeper was clean and comfortable, but very very threadbare.
The train was definitely listed in OG's of the period.
Given the grades, I cannot imagine a freight running faster than the NES. And in 1946, the fastest freights drew Berkshire power, first generation 2-8-4's that would have done well to make the run in 5-1/2 hours.
Running via Troy and the B&M would have taken even longer, and required adding electric power throught the Hoosack Tunnel.
Question, not that I have access to one, but was this train listed in the OG?
daveklepper I think the NYC tried, immediately after WWII, a morning connection to the Empire State Exoress, with an evening return. It did not last long, because it left too inconveniently early in the morning and got back to Boston too late in the evening. But it was faster than the NES, and that may be the train you are looking for. When RDC's became available, the attempt was made again, with a still faster schedule, thus more convenient departures and arrivals, and this did last for a while. But there was also a solid mail and other head end business train each way that was probably faster than the NES, with fewer stops and less dwell time.
I think the NYC tried, immediately after WWII, a morning connection to the Empire State Exoress, with an evening return. It did not last long, because it left too inconveniently early in the morning and got back to Boston too late in the evening. But it was faster than the NES, and that may be the train you are looking for. When RDC's became available, the attempt was made again, with a still faster schedule, thus more convenient departures and arrivals, and this did last for a while.
But there was also a solid mail and other head end business train each way that was probably faster than the NES, with fewer stops and less dwell time.
Sorry Dave but none of these are the train I'm looking for. You are not thinking outside of the box yet.
I think the NYC tried, immediately after WWII, a morning connection to the Empire State Express, with an evening return. It did not last long, because it left too inconveniently early in the morning and got back to Boston too late in the evening. But it was faster than the NES, and that may be the train you are looking for. When RDC's became available, the attempt was made again, with a still faster schedule, thus more convenient departures and arrivals, and this did last for a while.
henry6 Remember, only B&A-NYC trains went from Albany to Boston, not B&M. So it must have been the New England States and I believe the time was something like 4 hours...definitely under 5 hours...and I would assume it was eastbound, too. 1946 was too early for RDC cars....
Remember, only B&A-NYC trains went from Albany to Boston, not B&M. So it must have been the New England States and I believe the time was something like 4 hours...definitely under 5 hours...and I would assume it was eastbound, too. 1946 was too early for RDC cars....
Not the New England States whose 1946 scheduled run time was 4 hrs - 50 mins. The train I'm looking for ran from Albany to Boston in less time than that but you're going to have to think outside the box to answer this question.
Sorry Johnny but it wasn't the Paul Revere. I need to clarify that I am looking for the scheduled run time between Albany and Boston only.
KCSfan Circa 1946 what train had the shortest scheduled running time between Albany and Boston? Identify the train (name or number), it's end to end run time and motive power. Mark
Circa 1946 what train had the shortest scheduled running time between Albany and Boston? Identify the train (name or number), it's end to end run time and motive power.
Motive power? All I have any idea of is steam, except through Cleveland.
It carried no baggage. I find it interesting that from Chicago to Buffalo it had no sleepers, but coaches and dining service, as well as a Chicago to Cleveland parlor car. There was a Chicago-Boston sleeper, which, along with two Detroit to Boston sleepers, was carried to Buffalo on the Wolverine. The Southwestern Limited gave it two St. Louis to Boston sleepers at Buffalo, and the Ohio State Limited yielded a Cincinnati to Boston sleeper and two Cleveland to Boston sleepers at Albany.
The sleeper from Chicago left at 12:01 p.m.; the sleepers from Detroit left at 7:20 p.m.; the sleeper from St. Louis left at 9:25 a.m.; the one from Cincinnati left at 3:45 p.m.; and those from Cleveland left at 9:20 p.m.
Johnny
Good work, Mark! The floor plan Ed mentions shows that B & C, an D & E could be used en suite (A was a drawing room), and the side doors were across the aisle from C and D. There were also eight sections in addition to the drawing room and four bedrooms. I wonder if a high level platform in Rochester and in the North Western station were used to facilitate loading the patients on their stretchers.
All:
Kratville, et. all, "Steam, Steel, and Limiteds", page 297 shows a broadside photo of the "Ephram McDowell" and floor plan of both cars.
Ed Burns of Anoka, MN
Lister and McDowell were physicians that were famous for the medical advanc3es they each pioneered.
The two Pullmans that carried their names ran between Chicago and Mankato in Northwestern's No's 514 & 515 which served Rochester where the Mayo Clinic was located. Each car had a side entrance door opposite Rooms C&D to facilitate boarding the litters or stretchers of bed ridden patients bound for Mayo. Rooms C, D and E could be used "en suite".
I don't know why I wrote "six bedroom" instead of "five bedroom," especially since I know that room F in a Manor car is a compartment (we spent two nights in F back in 1997).
Why were the names "Joseph Lister" and "Ephraim McDowell" appropriate names for two cars that Pullman built for use on a certain CNW train in 1929? What were the accommodations? What feature did these cars have that no other Pullmans had?
Johnny is correct except that the cars were 4 sec, 4 rmt, 5 DBR 1 CPT (Johnny had 6 DBR). L&N picked up NC&St L's cars in 1957, C&EI's in 1969. The cars were built for the Dixie Flagler, renamed the Dixieland in 1956. The SAL had 4 cars, usually used on the Silver Comet. All of ACL's and SAL's cars made it as far as SCL, but none were purchased by Amtrak.
Johnny is correct that the SAL cars are very similar (except for minor exterior details) to the CPR's Manor series. VIA rail lists them now with "Three sets of upper/lower berths, 4 single bedrooms, 6 double bedrooms, 2 common washrooms and a common shower". VIA shows 40 of the original 41 in service.
J, I am really impressed, and am certain you must have given the answer.
I had the impression that you are referring to the 4 section, 4 roomette, 6 bedroom, 1 compartment sleepers that were originally built for the Dixieland, but the ACL, C&EI, NC&SL, and FEC each owned two, and the L&N owned one; In 1955, Budd built six for the SAL. In 1957, with the absorption of the NC by the L&N, the L&N owned three. In 1967; with the creation of the SCL, this road owned eight, and with the absorption of part of the C&EI by the L&N in 1969, the L&N owned five.
In 1955, Budd also built forty-two cars with this arrangement for the CP--and most of them are still in service. I, with my wife, have ridden in four of them, and I rode in one of the SAL cars.
In 1956, PS built three 5 bedroom 2 compartment, 2 drawing room cars for the SAL--but this may have been an older design.
This is just a guess but I'll say the sleepers built for the Southern's Crescent. Still guessing I'll say 5 of the 8 cars were owned by the SR, 2 by the L&N and the eighth one by the West Point Route. The cars that had a Master Room were the last ones built with that type of accommodation. The arrangement of these cars was: 2 BR, 1 MR, buffet-lounge.
In 1954, Pullman-Standard built an order of eight cars for one train that ran on five different railroads. The cars had four different kinds of sleeping accomodations, and were the last new design to contain one of them for US use. A year later Budd built four more cars of the same arrangement. The cars room arrangement was listed in Official Guide schedules for at least two of the railroads.
Room arrangement and Railroads. As a huge hint, three of the eight cars belonged to a single railroad by 1957, five of them by 1969, and two of the eight Pullmans and all of the four Budds to another railroad by 1967.
rcdrye daveklepper In an attempt to be have some fun, some names NOT used for sleeping cars: Silver Pajamas, Silver Pillow, Silver Bathrobe, Silver Kamona, Silver blanket, Siklver Sheets, Silver Bedspread, Silver Bedposts I'll post a question later today but Dave's comment reminded me of AT&SF's "Blue" series cars that were used on the Chief and other just-below-the-Super Chief trains. They had 10 roomettes, 3 Double Bedrooms and 2 Compartments. One of the cars was "Blue Moon". I had a roomette on it on Amtrak's Southwest Limited in the mid 1970s.
daveklepper In an attempt to be have some fun, some names NOT used for sleeping cars: Silver Pajamas, Silver Pillow, Silver Bathrobe, Silver Kamona, Silver blanket, Siklver Sheets, Silver Bedspread, Silver Bedposts
In an attempt to be have some fun, some names NOT used for sleeping cars: Silver Pajamas, Silver Pillow, Silver Bathrobe, Silver Kamona, Silver blanket, Siklver Sheets, Silver Bedspread, Silver Bedposts
I'll post a question later today but Dave's comment reminded me of AT&SF's "Blue" series cars that were used on the Chief and other just-below-the-Super Chief trains. They had 10 roomettes, 3 Double Bedrooms and 2 Compartments. One of the cars was "Blue Moon". I had a roomette on it on Amtrak's Southwest Limited in the mid 1970s.
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