Thanks, Dave.
In Washington State, there was an interurban in two disconnected segments. The northern segment had a long trestle and was nicknamed "The trolley that went to sea". Name this interurban.
You got them and now total 11.so you do have the next question to ask. And counting rc's we have a total of 17. We can add the upper middle level, the upper underground level, station of the existing Broadway station on the Boston Red Line, which had the City Point - Dudley via Broadway tracks on the surfance, and the Bay View streetcar on the upper undergound station parallel with the Red Line below. The station still exists, although streetcar service through it was abandoned about 2 years after opening. It is well used for fire and emergency response training, with older sample vehicles within. That makes 18. Or 19 if counting DuPont Circle as two. (Each track had its own tunnel and station.)
daveklepperNow can you name the two/three Washington, DC, streetcar tunnels that also had conduit track, each with station?
Dupont Circle Tunnels and Bureau of Engraving Tunnel.
daveklepperBut one very obvious is near by, and visiting the station without transit service today is easy as pie.
Transit Museum (Court Street)?
So far RC has 6 correct and NW 8 correct. Should have noted that the Dorchester tunnel formerly connecting Boylson Sta. on the Green with a portal at Broaway and Tremont and used for about 60 years by the City Pont - N.Station and Eggleston - N. Station subway-surface cars, including PCC's, did not have an intermediate station. And NW, you should have noted that the existing "Park Avenue Vehicular Tunnel had conduit track. Now can you name the two/three Washington, DC, streetcar tunnels that also had conduit track, each with station? The 4th & Madison streetcar line that used this subway was the first to go in the General Motors bustitution of the Green Lines in Manhattan, 1935 or 1936.
YOu may be correct about Kingsbridge Road and station on the "C" streetcar and the Concourse. I'll count that as correct. Also correct about the Queensboro Br.and 2nd Avenue, subway terminal for New York State's very last streetcar line, running into 1957 using ex-Befdord, MA Osgood Bradley "automotive" design cars, similar to Brill Master Units. No crosstown streetcar existed at 170th and Concourse. No station for either the T (for Treemont Avenue), or the subway at Burnside. (There is one on at Jerome which lacks a Treemont Sta.) At Treemont the Z (for Zoo?) 180th crosstown had an arrangement like 167th. The Z, 167th X, Ogdon Avenue, and University Avenue all shared the Washington Bridge to Manhattan and West 181 to a double-crossover double-track stub terminal at B'way. They kept wire on W181 but crossed the conduit T 3rd and Amst at Amsterdam Avenue just west of the Bridge and one could transfer to the conduit K running N-S on Broadway.
Also should note that at Bergen St., Brooklyn, F is on one level and G on the other, both are in use, with the F switching to the local track south of the station. Doesn't count. But one very obvious is near by, and visiting the station without transit service today is easy as pie.
daveklepperThere was a Boston subway tunnel with station abandoned and replaced by a new tunnel without a replacement station.
I believe this is the Adams Square station on the Tremont Street Subway?
daveklepper By 42nd Lower level, I assume you mean 8th Avenue.
Yes.
daveklepper167th Grand Concourse, I assume you mean the streetcar station actually below the subway platforms, and that was connected by stairways to them. The same situation existed at another Concourse Station, one that I used to visit a Bronx friend, going from the subway to a different crosstown streetcar.
I am not sure about the second part of this section, not having much knowledge of TARS. However a combination of Google Earth and current MTA bus routes (many based off TARS lines), I think this could refer to:
1.The "C" at Kingsbridge Road and Grand Concourse.
2.The "T" at Burnside Avenue and Grand Concourse.
I think the latter is more likely. A question for you: At 170th Street and Grand Concourse, The underpass is beneath the subway trackways (visible on the roof, like 167th) and there appears to be wide spaces on the side. Did a streetcar run here?
daveklepper There was another terminal similar to Essex Street for the Williamsburg Bridge, but it was not adjacent to any subway station.
I'm not sure on this one...
daveklepperThere is a famous subway in New York City that is now used for private autos and taxis exclusively. It had two underground stations. Remnants of the stations can still be seen from the autos. It had one unusual feature. Name it. It once saw a mixture of steam and horse propulsion.
Park Avenue Tunnel from 33rd St.-40th St. It connected to the tracks at the original Grand Central.
Another: Queensborough Bridge Railway Manhattan Terminal.
As farf as I know, there were no portions of the Orange Line tunnel abandoned, just the ramps up to the elevated structures, which were replaced by extended tunnels. If I am wrong, please give me a detailed description. Did the Broadway tunnel in SF include a station? If so, it does qualify. There was a Boston subway tunnel with station abandoned and replaced by a new tunnel without a replacement station. Checking older and ciurrent maps will tell you what it is. But it is not on the Orange Line. In fact there were two, but the older abandonment is not easy to discover, and is an upper level of an existing station with one-time ramps to surfance on each side. By 42nd Lower level, I assume you mean 8th Avenue. I do have to count that, even though it is not one I considered. 167th Grand Concours, I assume you mean the streetcar station actually below the subway platforms, and that was connected by stairways to them. The same siituation existed at another Concourse Station, one that I used to visit a Bronx friend, going from the subway to a different crosstown streetcar. This other line shared tracks at on point with the "X" crosstown 167th Street line and thus could not use "X". Can you figure out which line it was, which Concourse Station, and what letter was used instead of an "X"? There was another temrinal similar to Essex Street for the Williamsburg Bridge, but it was not adjacent to any subway station. You should know this underground station terminal because the last streetcars that used it were on a line that was very significant in streetcar history.
I rode the streetcar system in Detroit extensively between 1942, age ten, and the closure of the system with PCC's around 1954. I do not remember any trolley subway being in use, downtown or anywhere else..
The Ceder Street subway in Newark that you mentioned going through the old Public Srevice Building temrinal is the subway that was abandoned and now is back in use again. It is used in its entirety for the operating second line from Penn Station to the Lackawanna Newark station. However, I do not think there is a station at the location of the old PS Builidng, cars, run nonstop from Penn Station to the stop at the incline.
There is a famous subway in New York City that is now used for private autos and taxis exclusively. It had two underground stations. Remnants of the stations can still be seen from the autos. It had one unusual feature. Name it. It once saw a mixture of steam and horse propulsion.
This unusual feature was also in the two Washington DC abandoned subways. Which were they?
I am glad someone recalled the Cleveland abandnoned subway. I think it was four-tracked. Is that correct? Detroit Avenue and Madison Avenue were, I think, two of the lines that used it
To add to RCDRYE's post:
New York:
B division:
Bergen Street Lower Level
42nd Street Lower Level
9th Avenue Lower Level
Streetcar:
167St and Grand Concourse
Williamsburg Bridge Railway Terminal (adjacent to Essex St.)
This is far from a comprehensive list since it doesn't include New York City (which I'm sure is where the seven abandoned segments are...) Anyway, ten to start with...
Boston - part of Orange Line
Boston Dorchester tunnel (connected to current green line)
Rochester Subway
Detroit downtown streetcar subway (one station)
Cleveland - Detroit Superior tunnel/bridges
St Louis (Illinois Terminal)
LA (PE subway)
San Francisco Broadway tunnel (shared with street traffic)
Pittsburgh branch to Penn Station (OOS, tracks in place)
Newark NJ to PSNJ building
Chicago had three streetcar tunnels with no stations,
Thanks, no problem! I'll have more time to post later today if no one answers before me.
It certainly does not have to be the entire system. Just a stretch of underground track with one station is sufficient. Good question, and I apologize that the clarification was needed. But in certain cases it was the entire system, and in others a subway in a mostly ground-level or elevated system.
Clarification: do they have to be 100% abandoned, or just partially abandoned, such as a stretch of tunnel and a station while the rest of the network continues operating, like some stations in NYC?
Name all once-operated subways that had regular service in North America that are now abandoned to regular rail transit service, although possibly used for other purposes. As long as electric railcars ran through it and it included at least one underground station, it counts. There are at least seven in one city alone, so possibly you should wait until you can find 10 before posting the answers. The rail equpiment can be single cars or trains, overhead wire or third rail or whatever.
And name one that was abandoned and has been restored to service.
daveklepperAlco partnered with Westinghouse to build either or both the Virginian and/or the Norfolk and Western box-cabs. because Wesinghours, not GE, was the leader in AC electrification.
This is actually the correct answer, though Alco/GE had built AC/DC units for the New Haven by 1924.
The original N&W boxcabs were built by Baldwin-Westinghouse in 1914. The EL-2 boxcabs of 1924 used exactly the same technology on a rigid frame (1914 boxcabs were 1-B+B-1, 1924 were 1-D-1) but Alco built the carbodies. Virginian ordered what were essentially duplicates in the "Squareheads" of 1925. Each 1-D-1 unit was rated at 2375 horsepower, operating at constant speeds of 14 or 28 MPH with regenerative braking. N&W operated them in pairs, Virginian in singles or groups of three.
Later Virginian electrics were all built by GE - the huge EL-2 2(B+B-B+B) of 1948 and the rectifier EL-C class (NH EF4, PC/CR E33) starting in 1953. N&W's own electrics were all retired after the Elkhorn Tunnel relocation in 1950, giving way to Y6b's and A's. The Virginian electrification was shut down by N&W in 1962.
OK, Alco partnered with Westinghouse to build either or both the Virginian and/or the Norfolk and Western box-cabs. because Wesinghours, not GE, was the leader in AC electrification. One of these may have been the "ongoing project" (although possibly the Great Northern) and the other was for the year mentioned. The diesel was obviously a switcher or a doodlebug, since no heavy mainline freight power was being built at the time. When I have time, I will have to google research on when the earliers Alco diesel switchers were built and whose diesel prime mover was used. But someone will probably know that answer sooner.
daveklepper Ford and Westinghouse, Tex-Mex diesel and Piedmont and Northern or Texas Electric?
Ford and Westinghouse, Tex-Mex diesel and Piedmont and Northern or Texas Electric?
You guys have them pretty well bracketed, at least geographically. Both of the orders supplemented or replaced some of the eras heaviest steam.
henry6 First thoughts were with Westinghouse and Ingersoll Rand. Westinghouse with a box cab electric for one of the Buffalo, NY roads like Niagra Jct.and Ingersoll Rand with box cab diesels for DL&W and CNJ.
First thoughts were with Westinghouse and Ingersoll Rand. Westinghouse with a box cab electric for one of the Buffalo, NY roads like Niagra Jct.and Ingersoll Rand with box cab diesels for DL&W and CNJ.
One of the two manufacturers is correct (Alco was already working with the other on one project). Think bigger and further south.
rcdrye It was the north-south that sent me looking for other Albanys. Once I spotted the Georgia Northern, a known motor car user, looking for Boston GA was the next step. Did the motor trains have a name or just the numbers, KCSFan?
It was the north-south that sent me looking for other Albanys. Once I spotted the Georgia Northern, a known motor car user, looking for Boston GA was the next step. Did the motor trains have a name or just the numbers, KCSFan?
Officially they were un-named but the locals very likely had a nickname for them as was often the case.
Mark
rcdrye It was the north-south that sent me looking for other Albanys. Once I spotted the Georgia Northern, a known motor car user, looking for Boston GA was the next step. Did the motor trains have a name or just the numbers, KCSFan? I usually try to come up with questions involving patterns, so here's a broken pattern: In 1924 and 1925 Alco strayed from its normal partnership with GE for diesel-electric and electric locomotives to deliver two orders to two different railroads. Railroads, type of locomotives, and Alco's temporary partner.
I usually try to come up with questions involving patterns, so here's a broken pattern:
In 1924 and 1925 Alco strayed from its normal partnership with GE for diesel-electric and electric locomotives to deliver two orders to two different railroads. Railroads, type of locomotives, and Alco's temporary partner.
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KCSfan Henry and Dave, thank you both. I had some reservations about this question and was concerned some might think it a trick question, which I guess in a way it was. I posted lots of hints in my replies to you because I didn't want anyone to be frustrated for long. I'm sure Rob will come up with another good one for us to puzzle over. MArk I guess when NY and New England are so much apart of your box, it is more like smashing an iron curtain than finding your way out of that box!
Henry and Dave, thank you both. I had some reservations about this question and was concerned some might think it a trick question, which I guess in a way it was. I posted lots of hints in my replies to you because I didn't want anyone to be frustrated for long. I'm sure Rob will come up with another good one for us to puzzle over.
MArk
I guess when NY and New England are so much apart of your box, it is more like smashing an iron curtain than finding your way out of that box!
Hats off to both of you! And you did ask for the train with the shortest scheduled running time, not the fastest train!
Bingo - we have a winner. Trains No's 1 & 4 ran the length of Georgia Northern's 68 mile mainline between Boston and Albany. The northbound train, No. 4, covered the distance in the shortest time, but at an average speed of just over 20mph. I'm looking forward to your next question Rob.
Good for you, KCSFAN! Not only was it out of the box it was out of sight!
RC HAS IT. I CAME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION THIS MORNING, THAT IT WAS A DIFFEREN\T BOSTON AND A DIFFERENT ALBANY, AND CAME TO THE COMPUTER TERMINAL TO PULL UP GOOGLE AND SEE WHAT OTHER USA CITIES AND TOWNS WERE NAMED BOSTON AND ALBANY, BUT RC ALEADY CAME TO THAT CONCLUSION. HATS OFF TO YOU RC!!!
How about Boston GA to Albany GA on the Georgia Northern? I don't have a 1940s OG handy but 1957 had a couple of schedules that end-to-end would match your times pretty well. The only timetables I could find with Diesel Motor Trains listed trains 1 and 4. The 1943 listing I found shows through operation with the Albany and Northern from Boston to Cordele via Moultrie and Albany.
This is the same Georgia Northern that was home railroad to Lucius Beebe's private car Gold Coast.
I think it varied from year to year, era to era, timetable to timetable. My 1927 guide shows to Albany in about 5 and a half hours, to Boston in about 5 and the only named train on the card. But the clue of not being an east west train throws me even further. Was it a NYC to Maine train thus perhaps being North-South? Can't find a timetable to help me....I'll be stuck in the dark of Hossick tunnel forever!
Henry, The Flying Yankee did not run to/from Albany. Its route was between Boston and Bangor. I re-checked the schedule of the Minute Man which, eastbound in 1946, was as follows: Lv Albany 12:45pm, Lv Troy 1:00, Arr Boston 5:55pm - total run time 5hrs - 10mins. This was 20 minutes longer than the schedule of the New England States and the times of both trains were longer than the 3hrs - 55mins schedule of the train I'm looking for.
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the Minute Man ran only between Boston and Troy and Albany was served by a connecting train of the NYC.
henry6 I took a minute to check my collection and I only have a 1927, 1958, and a 1969 issue of the Guide...and they of course show nothing.....so I am going to make a guess it to be the B&M's Minute Man, possibly with new RDC cars.
I took a minute to check my collection and I only have a 1927, 1958, and a 1969 issue of the Guide...and they of course show nothing.....so I am going to make a guess it to be the B&M's Minute Man, possibly with new RDC cars.
Not the Minute Man Henry and of course 1946 was prior to the advent of RDC's. While the train still ran in 1958 its route had been truncated and it no longer ran the full distance between Boston and Albany. The train is probably listed in your 1927 OG since I find it in my 1930 Guide but at that time its motive power was steam and not a diesel motor.
Here's another hint that should lead someone to finally identify the train I'm looking for. It did not run in an east - west direction.
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