An impact speed of 59 mph was reported in a news story. I would not be surprised if it is actually the speed limit. What is the speed limit at that location for the Amtrak train?
SaturnaliaJust some observations, to quell any "why didn't they slow down much" seeing as how the reported speed of impact was 59mph, track speed.
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Saturnalia Just some observations, to quell any "why didn't they slow down much" seeing as how the reported speed of impact was 59mph, track speed. From the point-of-switch to impact was about 500', and 60mph is 88fps. That means the Amtrak crew had about 5 seconds of reaction time, let alone time for the brakes to actually setup. Terrible...just terrible. It think this will likely put some focus onto Signal Suspension rules. Engineers will probably also be looking at Amfleet structural integrity, seeing as how one is ripped clean in half farther back in the train.
Just some observations, to quell any "why didn't they slow down much" seeing as how the reported speed of impact was 59mph, track speed.
From the point-of-switch to impact was about 500', and 60mph is 88fps. That means the Amtrak crew had about 5 seconds of reaction time, let alone time for the brakes to actually setup.
Terrible...just terrible.
It think this will likely put some focus onto Signal Suspension rules. Engineers will probably also be looking at Amfleet structural integrity, seeing as how one is ripped clean in half farther back in the train.
What is the method of operation? I'm guessing CTC, but with a 59mph speed limit, it makes me think non-signalled TWC (or CSX's equivalent) operation. That and I'm not seeing any signals, although if the tracks involved aren't sidings (under the rules) they may be hand throw and not part of the CTC. 59mph could also be because of a signal suspension. Balt said he heard of one in the area the previous day but it is unknown if it was still in effect.
It's kind of obvious that a switch wasn't normal. If there was an active signal system, it should have provided warning to trains on the main track. If no signals or they were suspended, there would be no advance warning. (Or it might work as intended and set signals but in a suspension they wouldn't be respected.) We also have the possibility, depending on where and what work to signals was being done, the system gave a false clear. That's happened before.
Getting back to the switch, why was it open? Did a freight crew forget to line it back? Any crew using a main track switch must report switches restored normal after use. In non signalled territory a record of usage must be made. Was the last to use the switch instructed by the dispatcher to leave it open? If instructed by the dispatcher to do so, then the dispatcher must protect the open switch. (The CSX train struck may not have been the last to use it. It could've been a preceeding train that left it open. With or without permission.) If it was known and protected (meaning the Amtrak crew had been instructed to expect to find it open) then it's possible they forgot it.
It's possible someone tampered with the switch. That's happened before, too. Although I'm not expecting this to be the case.
Jeff
From NBC:
"The Amtrak train, according to sources, was given verbal approval by CSX dispatch to proceed down a set of tracks. But the switch on those tracks was on the wrong position, sending the Amtrak train into a CSX train which was sitting still, pulled off to the side."
AP says AMTK engineer and conductor died:
https://apnews.com/7478c3e4083e47ca905f8ca46fc5dc20/2-Amtrak-workers-killed,-116-hurt-in-South-Carolina-crash
Very sad.
Still in training.
Jeff, thanks for the explanation of Signal Suspension.
Signals or not, wouldn't this come down to a CSX dispatching error? Or is it possible that the CSX crew was supposed to have manually lined a switch for the Amtrak train and failed to do so? (This seems unlikely to me.) Maybe they were switching the auto-rack facility, backed in, and forgot to line the switch for the main. With the signals out, this could have gone unnoticed. ???
Electroliner 1935Near as I can determine this is where it occurred.
Actually, no. Based especially on the drone footage of the scene, the location was definitely here: 33.90859 -81.06724. The area appears to be known as Dixiana, and is several miles south of Cayce.
The location is adjacent to an auto handling facility, which would explain the autoracks in the images from the scene. I have no idea if they load or unload there, not that it matters.
I was having trouble finding a location that matched what I was seeing as well. A search on the net did yield a map that gave the location better. I don't know when that was put up.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The drone video shows horrific damage to the front of the AMTK engine.
59MPH seems a little fast to be taking the diverging route on that switch seen at 24 sec in the drone video.
I am suprised they are still allowing road traffic over that bridge.
Sad to hear of the passing of the Amtrak employees. From the pics, I assumed it was CSX crewmen who had died.
Just curious, what CSX engine is now scrap metal after that collision? There doesn't appear to be enough left to read the number.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp36W9L741E&feature=youtu.be
Firelock76 Hey Overmod, at least no-one's blaming this on Islamic terrorists, or alt-right terrorists, or Code Pink, or what ever loon-of-the-week group may be running around loose out there. At least not that we're aware of, anyway.
Hey Overmod, at least no-one's blaming this on Islamic terrorists, or alt-right terrorists, or Code Pink, or what ever loon-of-the-week group may be running around loose out there.
At least not that we're aware of, anyway.
Wayne, Firelock76 , Those very facts, by themselves should lessen the hyper-ventilation by the MSM's, reportage by at least a week(?) The information provided bhy Jeff H. was pretty thorough on the potential aspects of a 'Signal Suspension' ( UPRR and CSX rules on that,one would suspect ,would possibly be similar(?).
Looking at the map of the Cayce(SC.) area, and yard seem to indicate possibly a place, maintained to 'yard' local freight traffic; or establish 'meets' between passing trains. The CSX train has been reported as 'parked' or 'standing without a crew'. Whichever it was, that, possibly saved some lives(?).
It would be interesting[IMHO] to know what kind of 'orders' from CSX Dispatch the AMTK #91 was operating under at that time of the morning. If the CSX train was fouling the tracks used by it, how long had it been 'standing' at that location. Did anyone "know' if the CSX train was at that location, if so for how long? Lots of questions and very few answers at this time.
zugmann Firelock76 At least not that we're aware of, anyway. Don't look at facebook comments, then.
Firelock76 At least not that we're aware of, anyway.
Don't look at facebook comments, then.
Don't worry, I never do. I don't do the Facebook. At all. Ever.
Euclid It is reported that the Amtrak train was on the wrong track, and the freight was standing with nobody on board. The track was referred to as a "side track." The Amtrak train collided at 59 mph impact speed.
If the Amtrak train was on the wrong track, who most likely would have been at fault? Also, how likely is it that the engineer knew or should have known that he or she was on the wrong track?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Firelock76At least not that we're aware of, anyway.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
A very great tragedy! The NTSB will do a very thorough investigation.
Ed Burns
It is reported that the Amtrak train was on the wrong track, and the freight was standing with nobody on board. The track was referred to as a "side track." The Amtrak train collided at 59 mph impact speed.
Firelock76When I say "...wait for the investigation..." that's strictly in the interest of fairness. ... If you say it's a little ridiculous for an accident report to take two years to finalize I've got no argument with you there.
You mistake the gist of my comment, alas! I was merely pointing out that at least one poster in this thread will surely have the thing solved, right down to the engineers' thoughts, motivations, and perhaps alien interference, perhaps in mere days. With or without any we-don't-need-no-steenkin'-NTSB input.
IOW the comment was not directed at Wayne in any raptor sense whatsoever (nor would any comment of mine likely ever be). Perhaps I should be more liberal with the emoticons in future.
Near as I can determine this is where it occurred.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9741687,-81.0508551,294m/data=!3m1!1e3
North end of the CSX Cayce yard. Freight was parked on the West track. I first suspected that the freight was fowling the switch from the single track north of here but looking at the view of the area, it appears to be a head on on the west track. If signals not working, bad news. Crew may not have known the freight was there. Wonder what orders they had. Waiting on STB.
Train had just left Columbia SC 25 minutes late.
https://asm.transitdocs.com/train/2018/2/3/91
Goodtiming Easy Overmod; pull in your talons!
Easy Overmod; pull in your talons!
It's OK, I've got a thick skin and don't claim to be a fount of wisdom, plus Overmod and I go back a ways so I don't take anything he says personally. Nor do I have to get the last word in.
We're all pretty angry about this, I've guessed that much. I mean, here we are well into the second decade of the 21st Century and with all the technology available to us why do things like this still happen? I was ready to cut loose with a "Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot" tirade myself this morning over this horror, but took a deep breath and got control of myself before I did.
LithoniaOperator BaltDC, what is a "signal suspension?"
BaltDC, what is a "signal suspension?"
It's when they take signals out of service for a variety of reasons. The size of the suspension depends on what they are doing. It could be as small as a control point or miles long involving multiple blocks. Within the suspension the block signals no longer govern or protect movements. (When we do it, temporary flagmen locations are established by bulletin and a type of manual absolute blocking is used. You can't pass a flagman without permission and the flagman can't grant it until the next flagman has verified any train or engine has cleared his location. The first and last signals in service are specified in the bulletin and trains are to approach the first in service/end of suspension prepared to stop.) Signals out of service may be dark, hooded, or just left on and disregarded. Signals protecting railroad crossings at grade and drawbridges are usually not part of any suspension and remain in service.
Overmod Firelock76 Don't misunderstand, (and maybe you don't) but I wasn't trying to be funny. Nothing about the accident was funny. It was you saying we'd have to wait for the investigation to start being educated here about its causes. Did you really, seriously, think that would be the case?
Firelock76 Don't misunderstand, (and maybe you don't) but I wasn't trying to be funny.
Nothing about the accident was funny. It was you saying we'd have to wait for the investigation to start being educated here about its causes. Did you really, seriously, think that would be the case?
When I say "...wait for the investigation..." that's strictly in the interest of fairness. Remember the old saying about how news reports are merely the "first draft" of history? While it seems pretty oblious to all at this time the cause of the accident may very well be a partially blocked mainline the "Who, what, when, where, why, and how" and apportionment of blame still has to be gotten into.
If you say it's a little ridiculous for an accident report to take two years to finalize I've got no argument with you there. I believe it was Don Phillips in one of his columns who said that air accident investigators get a little nervous if they don't have a good handle on an incident within 48 hours. I would think a rail accident would be a little easier to investigate, but what do I know? It's not my line of work.
2018 off to a wicked start..gremlins and demons.
Firelock76Don't misunderstand, (and maybe you don't) but I wasn't trying to be funny.
I see photos showing that the Amtrak train did ineed jacknife in at least one location where two cars are displaced from the line of the train. That would tend to indicate a higher impact speed than what is evident at the head end.
Yes, CNN now reporting the freight was stationary.
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