That's a damn good photo.
Looks like a manual throw switch. It surely does look like the CSX crew screwed up bigtime.
I wonder what they were doing away from their locomotive. Aside from surviving.
Is it really such a challenge to remember to re-line the switch to the main?
Ed
Good Photo of the switch ..
https://nypost.com/2018/02/04/feds-investigating-why-amtrak-switch-was-set-in-wrong-position/
knock it off murphM. Some of your cohorts think the same thing.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
Euclid I am just wondering if there is some reason or requirement to lock the switch when using it for the crossover move. What scenario would have the switch lined off of the mainline and into the crossover with the switch locked?
It's not a crossover switch. It is simply the switch into that siding.
If we're talking a two person crew (as I suspect we are) and there was no one else to handle the switch, then the conductor locked the switch while he/she rode the point of the push move into the siding. I've done that a number of times.
This is especially true if the lock isn't somehow secured to the switch stand (as in, with a chain). You have to relock it somewhere (you can't take your key out if the hasp is open), it might as well be where it secures the switchstand.
Pure conjecture on my part - neither crew member remembered to go back and re-line the switch. If the territory was temporarily dark, the dispatcher likely would not see it still reversed on the model board.
This does beg the question as to whether or not the crew signed the SPAF, and if the dispatcher queried them on it. Unless a SPAF is not required there. If CSX runs there like they do in this area, and if the territory was, indeed, dark, then they would have gotten a line 11 on their EC1 (track warrant) to use the switch, and when they cleared the EC1, the dispatcher would have asked about the switch.
The satellite image has too many shadows to tell much about the switch itself.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Euclid My first impression was that impact speed was maybe around 30 mph.
My first impression was that impact speed was maybe around 30 mph.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
BaltACD I might add - ALL radio communications by Train Dispatchers are recorded - radio, telephone - it don't matter. ALL. The CSX crew, the Amtrak crew both would have communicated via radio, most likely. The Amtrak Conductor was on the lead locomotive because the sole occupant of the locomotive is not allowed to recieve and/or repeat verbal mandatory directives - UNLESS the train is stopped. The Track Warrants to operate through a signal suspension are Mandatory Directives as defined in the Rule Book.
I might add - ALL radio communications by Train Dispatchers are recorded - radio, telephone - it don't matter. ALL. The CSX crew, the Amtrak crew both would have communicated via radio, most likely.
The Amtrak Conductor was on the lead locomotive because the sole occupant of the locomotive is not allowed to recieve and/or repeat verbal mandatory directives - UNLESS the train is stopped. The Track Warrants to operate through a signal suspension are Mandatory Directives as defined in the Rule Book.
Johnny
In terms of deceleration, might I add that the Amtrak P42DC is by far the heaviest thing on Amtrak #91, and therefore has the most momentum and energy to dissipate. Lifting it 20' over a CW44AC takes a LOT of energy. Consider me part of the "unfortunate airbag" thesis here, wherein the P42 was an unfortunate sacraficial airbag for the rest of the train.
Unfortunately, it was nowhere near survival. The photos hurt like hell to look at. Thankfully there was no crew aboard the CSX power, or they'd be gone as well.
I think there will soon be major discussions about Signal Suspension prototcol in Washington and railroad headquarters around the country. While it may be no riskier in theory than in normal unsignalled territory, perhaps additional safeguards are needed to protect against misaligned turnouts during signal suspensions, and perhaps, elsewhere as well.
ruderunner Euclid If the freight train pulled through that crossover and failed to re-line the switch off of the main line, would they have left the wrongly lined switch locked? That appears to be what happened. But why?
Euclid If the freight train pulled through that crossover and failed to re-line the switch off of the main line, would they have left the wrongly lined switch locked?
If the freight train pulled through that crossover and failed to re-line the switch off of the main line, would they have left the wrongly lined switch locked?
That appears to be what happened. But why?
I don't know. I am just wondering if there is some reason or requirement to lock the switch when using it for the crossover move. What scenario would have the switch lined off of the mainline and into the crossover with the switch locked?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
firelock, cartwheel? I doubt it, I'd expect much more damage to the Amtrak locomotive. Not to mention it's still more or less inline with the following cars.
I still expect we will find the CSX locomotives got pushed back in the impact, 1 million pouds of passenger train moving at speed hitting stationary 1 million pounds of locomotives means something moved.
BaltACDThis incident has Graniteville, SC written all over it. Crew, after backing the train off, must have reported they were clear of the track segment, without restoring the switch for Main Track movement.
That's what I've been thinking. The line is a single track main, with the siding the auto rack train was on on one side, and the siding used to access the distribution center on the other - hence the three tracks we see in the images.
The potential SNAFU by the crew of the train on the siding, possibly combined with the suspended signals, was a disaster in the making.
oltmannd Shades of NS Graniteville, SC. Ugh... All the new rules in place about recording and verifying switch position in dark territory... So, if signal suspension to install PTC... this could be a PTC caused collision? In ABS territory, approaching facing point switch (without circuit controller) while running against the current meant resticting speed, no? Wonder why similar not in place when running during signal suspension.
Shades of NS Graniteville, SC. Ugh... All the new rules in place about recording and verifying switch position in dark territory...
So, if signal suspension to install PTC... this could be a PTC caused collision?
In ABS territory, approaching facing point switch (without circuit controller) while running against the current meant resticting speed, no? Wonder why similar not in place when running during signal suspension.
No, except in yard limits. If authorized to run against the current of traffic where not signalled for both directions maximum speeds can be psgr 59mph, frt 49mph. Just like dark territory. Same with a signal suspension. Unless otherwise advised you would expect all main track switches to be lined for the main track.
All hand throw switches (and maybe hand operated derails) in signalled territory will have circuit controllers. (It's the small box you usually see between the rail and the switchstand. It makes sure the track circuit is shunted when the switch is opened.) Of course running against the current where not signalled for both directions or signals suspended means there is no signal protection.
ruderunner also rather curious as to how the Amtrak locomotive ended up going over the csx unit? Was it partially airborne on impact? What happens when you hit a derail at 60 mph?
also rather curious as to how the Amtrak locomotive ended up going over the csx unit? Was it partially airborne on impact?
What happens when you hit a derail at 60 mph?
Looking at the extent of the damage to the CSX units, to say nothing of the Amtrak locomotive, is it possible the Amtrak unit cartwheeled after impact?
I'm no physicist, hey the only physics I know I learned in high school back in the Pleistocene Era, but I know all that kinetic energy in the locomotive had to dissipate somehow. So I hope the question isn't as foolish as it sounds.
WDGF 7j43k samfp1943 Amtrak President Richard Anderson says the signal system run by a private railroad was down when one of his passenger trains slammed into the rear of a parked freight train carrying automobiles on a side track in South Carolina, killing two workers. Wow, ANOTHER Amtrak wreck. But a rear-ender. The one WE'RE looking at surely looks like a head-on to me. But, then, I'm not a professional in charge of a large railroad organization. So I could be wrong. Ed I’m assuming those CSX locomotives are DPU pushers, but I could be mistaken.
7j43k samfp1943 Amtrak President Richard Anderson says the signal system run by a private railroad was down when one of his passenger trains slammed into the rear of a parked freight train carrying automobiles on a side track in South Carolina, killing two workers. Wow, ANOTHER Amtrak wreck. But a rear-ender. The one WE'RE looking at surely looks like a head-on to me. But, then, I'm not a professional in charge of a large railroad organization. So I could be wrong. Ed
samfp1943 Amtrak President Richard Anderson says the signal system run by a private railroad was down when one of his passenger trains slammed into the rear of a parked freight train carrying automobiles on a side track in South Carolina, killing two workers.
Amtrak President Richard Anderson says the signal system run by a private railroad was down when one of his passenger trains slammed into the rear of a parked freight train carrying automobiles on a side track in South Carolina, killing two workers.
Wow, ANOTHER Amtrak wreck. But a rear-ender.
The one WE'RE looking at surely looks like a head-on to me.
But, then, I'm not a professional in charge of a large railroad organization. So I could be wrong.
I’m assuming those CSX locomotives are DPU pushers, but I could be mistaken.
Mistaken you are.
Cayce Yard is a major automobile distrubution center for CSX. The train in the siding was a cut of empty auto racks that had been pulled from the yard and backed off in the siding, leaving the engines attached.
This incident has Graniteville, SC written all over it. Crew, after backing the train off, must have reported they were clear of the track segment, without restoring the switch for Main Track movement.
BigJimEuclidAn impact speed of 59 mph was reported in a news story.And you would believe a preliminary NEWS reporter!
I did not certify it to be true. I just offered it as having been reported. That's a fact.
for lack of any other information...
That said, the entire front 10-15 feet of the Amtrak locomotive is... Missing. Cab, front truck, etc. You can see the (I think) dynamic brake module impacted out of the carbody. The front truck is seen sitting on the ground in front of the CSX locomotives.
The second car is buckled and track is clearly out of place, quite a ways back from the rear of the train (Balts pic)
The jackknifed cars are indeed two cars off into trees. Chicago Tribune has a good photo of them.
There's no telling right now how far the CSX train moved on impact. Maybe just bunched up the slack in the auto racks couplers?
He was moving right along....
RS
EuclidAn impact speed of 59 mph was reported in a news story.
Viewing the following video, I stand by my suspicions that the train was going much slower than 59mph. Note that the front of the locomotive only travelled about 100 feet after the collision. It is hard to tell if that is only two cars that have jack-knifed or actually one car that is folded in half. And again, other than the lead CSX locomotive, there appears to be no damage to the rest of the train.[ur]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp36W9L741E&feature=youtu.be[/url]
I think the AMTRAK engineer saw what was about to happen and put the train in emergency, slowing the train down somewhat.
.
The following linked article has just been noted o Druge report: @ https://www.yahoo.com/news/latest-2-killed-south-carolina-crash-amtrak-train-131506605.html
"The Latest: Switch in wrong position key to train crash"
He says the freight train crew took the CSX train from one side track across the main line and back to another side track after unloading automobiles..."
and then there is this comment from same article:"...3:15 p.m.
Anderson said dispatchers at CSX were manually routing trains around 2:45 a.m. Sunday. He says he would defer to National Transportation Safety Board investigators to determine what role that played in the wreck that also sent 116 people to the hospital, most with minor injuries..."
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
DeggestyThis line had CTC years ago. In 1954, it had approach-lit signals (my mother boarded the Palmland in Camden in the summer of 1954, going up to Virginia. While waiting for the train, I looked down the track, expecting to see a lit signal--and was disappointed because nothing was lit. If it is being operated with signal suspension, would it not be considered dark territory--and thus have speed limits of 59 mph and 49 mph?
If it is being operated with signal suspension, would it not be considered dark territory--and thus have speed limits of 59 mph and 49 mph?
To my knowledge, the territory is still operated with CTC today, however, the change over to the signal system handling PTC requires the replacement of both wayside signals and the electronics that support the signals and PTC.
The replacement is done with Signal Rules being suspended between specific points. Within the limits of the Suspension trains are handled on Track Warrant Authority with the limits of the Suspension being defined by a Superintendents Bulletin specifying the limits and the authorities needed to traverse the suspended territory. Where necessary, Switchtenders (in the pre-EHH days) would be stationed to handle any switches required for movement. I have no knowledge if Switchtenders were required or used for this Signal Suspension.
I have no knowledge of who handled the switch that put Amtrak on the track that the CSX train occupied.
This picture from behind the Amtrak train gives evidence of the forces the train applied to the track structure at the time of impact. Notice the Kink,
BigJim Saturnalia Just some observations, to quell any "why didn't they slow down much" seeing as how the reported speed of impact was 59mph, track speed. Has it actually been substantiated that the collision speed was indeed 59 mph or is everyone just repeating what the speed limit is in this area? Because, from what I am seeing, the moving AMTRAK train stopped within an engine length. Looking at the non-existent damage to the standing train behind the lead CSX unit, the minor amount of jack-knifing of the AMTRAK cars and the short distance of stopping, I would say that the collision speed was much less than 59 mph. Although I do have some suspictions, I will politely abstain from any further speculation at this time.
Saturnalia Just some observations, to quell any "why didn't they slow down much" seeing as how the reported speed of impact was 59mph, track speed.
Has it actually been substantiated that the collision speed was indeed 59 mph or is everyone just repeating what the speed limit is in this area? Because, from what I am seeing, the moving AMTRAK train stopped within an engine length. Looking at the non-existent damage to the standing train behind the lead CSX unit, the minor amount of jack-knifing of the AMTRAK cars and the short distance of stopping, I would say that the collision speed was much less than 59 mph. Although I do have some suspictions, I will politely abstain from any further speculation at this time.
Bigjim, after casual viewing of the limited photos so far, i think the rate of deceleration is less than normal. It seems that the Amtrak locomotive ran up over the top of the leading CSX unit giving a cushioning effect to the rest of the train. Sort of like an airbag.
I do have a couple questions about some of the photos. In one where the NTSB yellow jackets are prominent, it looks like the lead truck of the Amtrak locomotive is on the ground almost directly in front of the csx unit. Is that correct?
Second question is referring to the buckle in the second car of the Amtrak train, is the buckle worse across the roof than floor level? Did the car get bent vertically as the locomotive ran up?
This line had CTC years ago. In 1954, it had approach-lit signals (my mother boarded the Palmland in Camden in the summer of 1954, going up to Virginia. While waiting for the train, I looked down the track, expecting to see a lit signal--and was disappointed because nothing was lit.
EuclidAn impact speed of 59 mph was reported in a news story. I would not be surprised if it is actually the speed limit. What is the speed limit at that location for the Amtrak train?
Maximum permitted speed for a passenger train in Unsignalled Territory is 59 MPH. Maximum permitted speed for a freight train in Unsignalled Territory is 49 MPH.
Both those limits are allowed if the track structure is maintained for those limits, ie. if track is restricted to 30 MPH for its own reasons, 30 MPH is the maximum speed for any train.
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