rdamon Isn't the anti-climber supposed to reduce damage that the lead CSX unit suffered or is the P42 designed differently?
Isn't the anti-climber supposed to reduce damage that the lead CSX unit suffered or is the P42 designed differently?
I would opine that above a certain speed, such features become merely decorative.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
LithoniaOperator In another forum I frequent, most of us use a winking-face emoticon for sarcasm or absurdity. By and large, folks seems to get that. Apparently this site does not have that emoticon. Might be a good addition.
In another forum I frequent, most of us use a winking-face emoticon for sarcasm or absurdity. By and large, folks seems to get that.
Apparently this site does not have that emoticon. Might be a good addition.
oltmanndOr, perhaps that train was put there before the signal suspension, so no record of switch thrown and locked was needed?
Don, you're stretching it too far. Remember that Balt said the suspension he knew about was the previous day. I doubt that train had been sitting there unattended with the switch lined wrong and locked for that length of time. Do you really think so, either?
Emoticons are wonderful things to express meaning that often takes many words to express... unfortunately... they only have the intended meaning to the person that used it. The person (or people) that see it often have no idea what the user intended, or they totally misinterpret it...
Many emoticons are so small that I cannot tell what the meaning is when I send it. On my cell phone i used a particular one to mean "me" being happy, then I found out that it was supposed to mean homosexuality, yet to others it was sarchasm, and to others it was anger. I am now very careful which emoticons I use.
And there are so many emotions that could be represented by emoticons that are not available in most systems. My phone has a "Thumbs Down" meaning "Dissagree" or "Dislike" (I assume) but it does not have a "Thumbs Up" to mean "Agree" or "Like". It has all kinds of Chinese (or possibly Japanese) ideograms that I have no idea what they mean and neither would anyone that I were to send them to. It has both a single Rose emoticon and a single "Wilted" Rose emoticon. I can see using the Rose as an offering of apology, but it could also mean romance... but what does the Wilted Rose mean? Is it a message of "I hate you" or is it a message of "I have apologized and you have not responded and my entreaty is dying on the vine"? Or does it mean, "Here, this is all you are worth!"?
It is hard enough to use words to express meaning because people have differing definitions of many words.
(Insert a grumpy emoticon here!)
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
It has that emoticon (in the top row) and I use it, but not for anything involving sarcasm or absurdity. It's a wink to ask 'do you get it?' in a friendly way. Just used it, in fact, in a reply in the "made contact" thread.
Sarc of course is far better as a meta tag than as any emoticon; that's also much easier to show 'on' and 'off' in comprehensible context (Same as for rant mode). And perhaps we need a range of 'absurd' emoticons, including one where the little guy looks up with a clueless expression as 'whooooosh!' forms and then dissipates over his head. But a wink is not that; a wink indicates complicity, not contempt.
Still in training.
These kinds of events STILL give me nightmares.
Shadow the Cats owner They had ZERO TIME to even think about grabbing the airbrake lever to dump the brakes.
.
Shadow the Cats ownerEuclid this would be about what that crew in the cab had time to do in their last 10 seconds of life. What the F happened and then Holy S when they saw that GE wide nose in front of them. They had ZERO TIME to even think about grabbing the airbrake lever to dump the brakes.
Oh I would not expect that they had a chance of stopping in time. But I would not say that they had ZERO TIME to dump the air. I have not yet seen any confirmation of their speed entering the switch. But it would be interesting to know what the speed of that train would have been after traveling 700 feet beyond an emergency application.
I am revising my earlier estimate of impact speed to around 50 mph based on the appearance of damage. One factor in estimating the impact speed is that the Amtrak locomotive has not traveled more than approximately 100 feet after impact. In rear end collsions at high speeds, the travel of the locomotive is likely to be much further.
But in a head-on collsion when the locomotive strikes an opposing locomotive, a lof of the energy is dissipated in the jacknifing and telescoping of the trailing rolling stock. This is perfectly illustrated in the videos showing staged head-on collisions using steam locomotives pulling trains. The locomotives stop dead in their tracks, ofter having their tenders tossed up in the air as they jacknife vertically from the impact.
cefinkjrYet another example of the need for a font or style expressing sarcasm!
Some folks have been known to use the sarcasm "tag" - [sarcasm] at the beginning and/or [/sarcasm] at the end...
It's not a real tag in HTML or the forum language, so it doesn't screw anything up in that regard.
Euclid this would be about what that crew in the cab had time to do in their last 10 seconds of life. What the F happened and then Holy S when they saw that GE wide nose in front of them. They had ZERO TIME to even think about grabbing the airbrake lever to dump the brakes. Why the injuries where so bad and I have a brother in law in that area that knows multiple first responders was the passengers were thrown all over the freaking place in the cars. There were several compound fractures of legs and arms in those injuries. The cafe lounge car is scrap metal on site it broke in half like a paper clip.
Deggesty Euclid In a very general sense, it seems to me that there must be around 1,000 feet between the switch and the point of impact. I assume that it would be normal to make an emergency application of brakes no later than at the switch, or just before it. As I stated earlier, 60mph is 88 feet per second...simple math tells you there wasn't much time to dump the train, especially if they didn't get to before lurching into the siding, probably knocking the crew off balance, at the least. " Therefore, there was NOT time to take any action, much less effective action.
Euclid In a very general sense, it seems to me that there must be around 1,000 feet between the switch and the point of impact. I assume that it would be normal to make an emergency application of brakes no later than at the switch, or just before it.
In a very general sense, it seems to me that there must be around 1,000 feet between the switch and the point of impact. I assume that it would be normal to make an emergency application of brakes no later than at the switch, or just before it.
As I stated earlier, 60mph is 88 feet per second...simple math tells you there wasn't much time to dump the train, especially if they didn't get to before lurching into the siding, probably knocking the crew off balance, at the least. "
Therefore, there was NOT time to take any action, much less effective action.
Thanks for that information. It would not have given much time for braking.
Overmod Murphy Siding Am I following this right? The CSX train was parked on the main, through track. The switch was set to send the Amtrak train through the siding to the left of the CSX train? The Amtrak train hit the switch and derailed? As it hit the ground, the locomotive veered to the left so that the right side of the Amtrak locomotive hit the right side of the CSX locomotive? Since I was part of screwing you up, here is the way I currently see this.
Murphy Siding Am I following this right? The CSX train was parked on the main, through track. The switch was set to send the Amtrak train through the siding to the left of the CSX train? The Amtrak train hit the switch and derailed? As it hit the ground, the locomotive veered to the left so that the right side of the Amtrak locomotive hit the right side of the CSX locomotive?
Since I was part of screwing you up, here is the way I currently see this.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Johnny
LithoniaOperator https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/05/us/positive-train-control-explainer/index.html Is it accurate that, according to an NTSB official, PTC would have prevented this accident? Does PTC detect switches aligned the wrong way? (Particularly during a signal supension.) Say the siding was empty: would PTC slow a train knowing that no one would ever intend to enter a siding that fast? Would any switch aligned from a main to a siding always trigger PTC actions? Does PTC "know" that (in this case) a train is in that siding? Etc. Etc.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/05/us/positive-train-control-explainer/index.html
Is it accurate that, according to an NTSB official, PTC would have prevented this accident? Does PTC detect switches aligned the wrong way? (Particularly during a signal supension.) Say the siding was empty: would PTC slow a train knowing that no one would ever intend to enter a siding that fast? Would any switch aligned from a main to a siding always trigger PTC actions? Does PTC "know" that (in this case) a train is in that siding? Etc. Etc.
So, what we have is a hand throw switch that is wired into the signal system. That is, it has a circuit controller so is shunts the track circuit (or equivalent) when reversed.
However, the signal system is temporarily out of service, so the hand throw switch is then covered by the "belt and suspenders" rules governing hand - throws in dark territory. The person doing it has to be double checked and forms have to be filled out, including at the dispatching office.
But, since this isn't standard procedure here, it wouldn't be habit, so maybe a mental slip by those putting the train away and the dispatcher?
Or, perhaps that train was put there before the signal suspension, so no record of switch thrown and locked was needed?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Overmod Firelock76 When I say "...wait for the investigation..." that's strictly in the interest of fairness. ... If you say it's a little ridiculous for an accident report to take two years to finalize I've got no argument with you there. You mistake the gist of my comment, alas! I was merely pointing out that at least one poster in this thread will surely have the thing solved, right down to the engineers' thoughts, motivations, and perhaps alien interference, perhaps in mere days. With or without any we-don't-need-no-steenkin'-NTSB input. IOW the comment was not directed at Wayne in any raptor sense whatsoever (nor would any comment of mine likely ever be). Perhaps I should be more liberal with the emoticons in future.
Firelock76 When I say "...wait for the investigation..." that's strictly in the interest of fairness. ... If you say it's a little ridiculous for an accident report to take two years to finalize I've got no argument with you there.
You mistake the gist of my comment, alas! I was merely pointing out that at least one poster in this thread will surely have the thing solved, right down to the engineers' thoughts, motivations, and perhaps alien interference, perhaps in mere days. With or without any we-don't-need-no-steenkin'-NTSB input.
IOW the comment was not directed at Wayne in any raptor sense whatsoever (nor would any comment of mine likely ever be). Perhaps I should be more liberal with the emoticons in future.
Yet another example of the need for a font or style expressing sarcasm! Many people (at least 2) have agreed with me that a sarcasm font or style would be nice to have and that a backward slanting italic might do the trick. None, however, apparently have the time, skill, talent, or influence to make it happen.
ChuckAllen, TX
BigJim Deggesty Larry, I have a question: how long has it been necessary to lock the switch before you can take your key out of the lock? Johnny,Well over tewentysome years, maybe even thirty, at least on the NS. I have no idea how long ago on the CSX. However, it makes absolutely no difference if the switch was locked or not. Sadly, it was lined for the siding!
Deggesty Larry, I have a question: how long has it been necessary to lock the switch before you can take your key out of the lock?
Johnny,Well over tewentysome years, maybe even thirty, at least on the NS. I have no idea how long ago on the CSX.
However, it makes absolutely no difference if the switch was locked or not. Sadly, it was lined for the siding!
jeffhergert oltmannd Shades of NS Graniteville, SC. Ugh... All the new rules in place about recording and verifying switch position in dark territory... So, if signal suspension to install PTC... this could be a PTC caused collision? In ABS territory, approaching facing point switch (without circuit controller) while running against the current meant resticting speed, no? Wonder why similar not in place when running during signal suspension. No, except in yard limits. If authorized to run against the current of traffic where not signalled for both directions maximum speeds can be psgr 59mph, frt 49mph. Just like dark territory. Same with a signal suspension. Unless otherwise advised you would expect all main track switches to be lined for the main track. All hand throw switches (and maybe hand operated derails) in signalled territory will have circuit controllers. (It's the small box you usually see between the rail and the switchstand. It makes sure the track circuit is shunted when the switch is opened.) Of course running against the current where not signalled for both directions or signals suspended means there is no signal protection.
oltmannd Shades of NS Graniteville, SC. Ugh... All the new rules in place about recording and verifying switch position in dark territory... So, if signal suspension to install PTC... this could be a PTC caused collision? In ABS territory, approaching facing point switch (without circuit controller) while running against the current meant resticting speed, no? Wonder why similar not in place when running during signal suspension.
Shades of NS Graniteville, SC. Ugh... All the new rules in place about recording and verifying switch position in dark territory...
So, if signal suspension to install PTC... this could be a PTC caused collision?
In ABS territory, approaching facing point switch (without circuit controller) while running against the current meant resticting speed, no? Wonder why similar not in place when running during signal suspension.
No, except in yard limits. If authorized to run against the current of traffic where not signalled for both directions maximum speeds can be psgr 59mph, frt 49mph. Just like dark territory. Same with a signal suspension. Unless otherwise advised you would expect all main track switches to be lined for the main track.
All hand throw switches (and maybe hand operated derails) in signalled territory will have circuit controllers. (It's the small box you usually see between the rail and the switchstand. It makes sure the track circuit is shunted when the switch is opened.) Of course running against the current where not signalled for both directions or signals suspended means there is no signal protection.
Thanks. Great explanation.
Overmod F.S. Adams Does anyone know if this is Yard Limit territory? I believe someone knowledgeable has already commented about this earlier in the thread.
F.S. Adams Does anyone know if this is Yard Limit territory?
I believe someone knowledgeable has already commented about this earlier in the thread.
This section of track is a single-main, CTC-controlled area. It is not a Controlled Point, so it is in the ABS or "block" signal area. The turnout was equipped with an electric lock.
What is currently unknown is to what effect the electric lock was being effective with the signal suspension supposedly in progress. Certainly the train crew was rightfully ignoring lineside indications as they operated under EC1 track authority.
I'm going to dump what CSX Rule 266 read as of the 2010 rulebook - no longer in force but gives you an idea of what to expect in a signal suspension, so long as they haven't changed up this rule much. I'd greatly appreciate it if anybody of knowledge of the newer (2015?) book can confirm that this has changed - or not.
Rule 266. Suspension of Signal System
Block Signals and signal rules may be temporarily remove from service by special instructions, dispatcher message or form EC-1
An alternate method of operation must be established and all trains affected notified.
Signals may only be removed from service when authorized by the proper authority, under the following conditions:
1. When a signal system is rednered inoperative by storm or flood,
2. When the signal system is disrupted for other cause and prompt restoration cannot be effected, or
3. When construction work necessitate the signals' temporary removal from service.
Unless otherwise specified, trains must:
a. Approach all absolute signals prepared to stop and not pass these signals without permission of the train dispatcher
b. Approach all public grade crossings that are equipped with automatic grade-crossing warning devices prepared to stop. This must be done unless the warning devices are operating. Trains will procees over such crossings only when it is safe to do so
c. Examine switch points to ensure they are lined and secured before making facing point movement over spring switches
d. Operate switches and derails as prescribed by Rule 104-I, and
e. Stop at drawbridges and railroad crossings at grade and will be governed by rules of special instructions in effect for that particular location.
Rule 104-I has some specifics about Power Switches, Derails and Spring Switches. The switch and derail in this case were not powered, and it was also not a spring switch.
Euclid What is the distance from the switch to the point of impact?
What is the distance from the switch to the point of impact?
Point-of-switch to impact was just under 700' as found by the measurement tool on Google Maps, which is reasonably accurate for this purpose.
As I stated earlier, 60mph is 88 feet per second...simple math tells you there wasn't much time to dump the train, especially if they didn't get to before lurching into the siding, probably knocking the crew off balance, at the least.
Murphy SidingAm I following this right? The CSX train was parked on the main, through track. The switch was set to send the Amtrak train through the siding to the left of the CSX train? The Amtrak train hit the switch and derailed? As it hit the ground, the locomotive veered to the left so that the right side of the Amtrak locomotive hit the right side of the CSX locomotive?
There is one main, the 'middle' track. CSX shoved back, off the main, into the siding where the collision occurred, with someone 'on the point of the shove' locking the switch so it wouldn't move under the train, then riding the consist back until it was a considerable distance 'clear' of the switch ... the head end and 'point of impact' then being about the length of 91's consist, roughly, distant from the fouling point of the switch. The CSX train then stopped, and apparently (at this point) no one on the head end went up, unlocked the siding switch, relined it for the main, and locked it again. Sometime before 91 arrived at this site, the folks on the head end left the area.
91 arrives at the switch around what, to the engineer, was a right-hand curve with view across the 'chord' blocked by trees. The switch remained set to direct any traffic into the siding, which I now believe the engine and following cars successfully (and somewhat surprisingly) did. The train then ran down the relatively short length of siding track to a more-or-less bluff collision with the standing train. Some result of crumple zones and kinematics appears to have folded the nose down in a way that directed the locomotive up and then over to the left, causing substantial damage to the structure of the lead CSX motor, coming to rest where you see it; the first following car suffering a clear compression buckle in its structure, and I suspect the following "V" may be the result of a similar buckle, as there is little else that would produce that effect in an otherwise standing train. There was likely no 'derailment' up to the point that the Amtrak motor started lifting as a resultant of impact forces and deformation.
I find it highly likely that the train was doing 59mph right up to the point the engineer recognized the open switch, which very well might have been when the engine veered dramatically to the right. That motion by itself might have delayed application of the brake -- we will have to wait for the release of data from the locomotive EDR, which might not have survived this degree of impact damage, and kinematic reconstructions to see if that might be so. There was certainly considerable shock reflected back through the train, net of all 'crumple zone' protection in the locomotive nose, which argues to me that the train may still have had considerable way on it at the point of impact.
BaltACDNOW - if that is in fact a normal manual switch, was the Dispatcher informed that locomotives were a part of what was shoved off into the 'siding' thus creating a train.
Looks likke an electric lock from the photos. No target, extra boxes at the lever, and even a relay box next to the ROW.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
"Am I following this right? The CSX train was parked on the main, through track. The switch was set to send the Amtrak train through the siding to the left of the CSX train? The Amtrak train hit the switch and derailed? As it hit the ground, the locomotive veered to the left so that the right side of the Amtrak locomotive hit the right side of the CSX locomotive?"
No. The CSX train was in the siding. Amtrak was supposed to hold the main. But the switch was accidentally left lined into the siding, assumedly by the CSX crew.
Does anyone know how long the CSX crew was off-duty before the crash?
I am assuming toxicology test have now been done on those crew; but was it done soon enough to be accurate enough?
Does anyone know if Amtrak or CSX trains have passed through that location yet since the accident? If not, how were they routed?
Am I following this right? The CSX train was parked on the main, through track. The switch was set to send the Amtrak train through the siding to the left of the CSX train? The Amtrak train hit the switch and derailed? As it hit the ground, the locomotive veered to the left so that the right side of the Amtrak locomotive hit the right side of the CSX locomotive?
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