According to the Classic Trains article on the service, there was, indeed, a set-out sleeper for the use of the Airway passengers and it traveled on the Missionary. Why it isn't shown I don't know, unless it was for the exclusive use of the Airway clientele and therefore the space was not available for sale and therefore would not be shown in the Official Guide or the timetable.
Bob Hanson
Mike, the information concerning the rail-air-rail-air service from New York to Los Angeles is interesting. I am sure that almost everyone noticed that this service took less time than the fastest service ever provided by through cars NY-LA.
By June of 1930, there was no setout sleeper at Waynoka listed by the Santa Fe, so the passengers apparently had to wait until the Missisionary came in before they could get to bed.
Johnny
Lawrenceville is on the ex-SAL (ne GC&N) line from Monroe, NC, to Atlanta and is still very much in service. Loganville, my home town, was on an SAL branch from Lawrenceville. It was abandoned in January 1932 and the rails came up in 1933.
Now for my question:
In the 1930's and 1940's, the Florida East Coast Railway "shuffled and dealt" their excess motive power to a number of roads, peddling its Mountains, Pacifics, and 0-8-0's throughout the nation, but chiefly in the South.
There were ten roads that purchased used power from the FEC. Name them. (Note: 3rd hand owners - and there were a couple - do not count.)
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
AWP290 My source for the 1943 date is Richard Prince's ACL book, which usually quite accurate. I double checked when you questioned the date.
My source for the 1943 date is Richard Prince's ACL book, which usually quite accurate. I double checked when you questioned the date.
I wouldn't question an authority like Prince so I'm sure 1943 is the correct date. One reason I thought it was earlier was a trip I made with an aunt of mine from Tampa to Gary, IN on the Southland. I know one of the ex-DL&W engines was on the point because before boarding at Tampa I walked to the front of the train and chatted briefly with the engineer who told me a good bit about his engine. I thought that trip was in the winter of 1942 but time has dulled my recollection of details like that and it must have been a year later. The trip was especially memorable in part because it was the first time I rode in a Pullman and breakfast the next morning while speeding up the CofG was the first time I ate in a dining car. This was pretty heady stuff for an 11 year old boy.
AWP290 Ask another question, Mark, and I'll stay out of it this time (assuming I know the answer - just lucky the last two times) and let someone get in the game.
Ask another question, Mark, and I'll stay out of it this time (assuming I know the answer - just lucky the last two times) and let someone get in the game.
Thanks Bob but I dont have a decent question at my finger tips and I'd really prefer you to ask the next one. If I know the answer, rather posting a reply on the open Forum, I'll PM my answer to you which will give someone else a chance at it.
By the way I looked up Lawrenceville in a '55 OG and see it is/was on the SAL mainline to Atlanta and Birmingham. The Cotton Blossom stopped there but the Silver Comet sped right on by. Is the line still active today or is it one of the many that were abandoned by the CSX?
Mark
http://www.timetableimages.com/i-t/tat2907i.jpg
http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/tat29/tat29-2.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_0ZwGCeuAbO0/SJ7m-exqCbI/AAAAAAAAN2Y/XYNcRokpfVE/Ford+Colombus+de+la+Transcontinental+(T.A.T.Air+transport+vers+1930.jpg
http://www.nasm.si.edu/exhibitions/gal102/americabyair/abaImage.cfm?webID=202.p5b
http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=12731
http://www.ci.glendale.ca.us/GCATG/pages/photo_album/1920s_3.htm
http://www.ci.glendale.ca.us/GCATG/pages/photo_album/1930s.htm
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1975/1/1975_1_22.shtml
My source for the 1943 date is Richard Prince's ACL book, which usually quite accurate. I double checked when you questioned the date. I have heard elsewhere that the ACL wanted to lease the engines but the DL&W said no dice - there are too many other customers who want to buy them.
As the Trilby-St. Pete section - I don't know. That'd likely be a question for Bro. Larry Goolsby, who literally wrote the book on ACL passenger service.
Bob
A curiosity PS to my last posting:
Do you know if these engines also handled the section of the Southland that ran between St. Pete and Trilby? I think not as this was a much shorter train than was the Tampa section so a Pacific was most likely its motive power.
Bob, as usual you've hit the nail on the head but are you quite sure the ACL acquired these engines in 1943? I was thinking the 1930's when the cash strapped Lackawanna no longer needed them due to a decline in their traffic as a result of the Depression but I can't readily lay my hands on a source for this info. I could easily be wrong as I've reached an age where by the time I get to the kitchen from the bedroom I've often forgotten why I was going there in the first place.
I've often wondered if some firebox modifications were'nt necessary since the engines burned anthracite while in service on the DL&W and bituminous on the ACL.
You and I are going back and forth at the speed of the ball in a tennis match and the next question is again yours to ask.
I don't know of any second-hand power acquired in the 1930's by the ACL, but they got five 4-8-2's (1401-1405) from the DL&W in 1943 to handle the Southland (Tr.s 32-33) over the Perry cutoff
They operated between Albany, GA, and Tampa, FL, unless I'm mistaken.
Are these engines the ones you have in mind?
I don't recall the exact year but sometime in the early 1930's the Atlantic Coast Line bought five fairly modern steam locomotives from another railroad for the express purpose of heading one of its passenger trains.
From what railroad were these engines purchased, what was their wheel arrangement, to what ACL train were they assigned and between what cities did they handle this train?
When you're hot, your hot, Mark!
The split-hair correct answer is, the State of Georgia, through the Western & Atlantic Railroad. When passenger service ended (5-1-71), the state promptly razed the station building and leased the very valuable air rights to Cousins Properties, developers of the Omni complex, the Georgia Dome, et al, although the L&N retained possession of the W&A (as does CSXT today.)
I somehow thought this one would take a bit longer to answer, but I underestimated the railroad knowledge of my audience.
Over to you, Mark.
Bob this is just a guess but I think it may have been owned by the state of Georgia's Western and Atlantic RR.
Thank you, Mark. I was just lucky in that I recently re-read a Classic Trains article on this service.
Atlanta, GA, in the heyday of the passenger train, had two major passenger terminals, Terminal Station and Union Station. Terminal Station was owned by the Atlanta Terminal Company and was used by Atlanta & West Point, Central of Georgia, and Southern Railway (owners) and Seaboard Air Line (tenant.) Union Station was used by Atlanta, Birmingham & Coast (later ACL), Georgia Railroad, Louisville & Nashville, and Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis.
The question is: Who owned Atlanta's Union Station?
You're right on the mark Bob and the next question is yours!
The 48 hour Transcontinental Air Transport (TAT) service was begun in July 1929 and was much publicized by the PRR. The first leg of the trip (westbound) was by Pullman on the Pennsy's overnight Airway Ltd. from New York City to Port Columbus, OH. Passengers then boarded a TAT Ford trimotor plane for a daylight flight to Waynoka, OK making intermediate stops at Indianapolis, St. Louis, Kansas City and Wichita. At Waynoka they deplaned and boarded a Santa Fe train for another overnight Pullman journey to Clovis, NM. The final leg of the trip was another daylight flight on a TAT Ford trimotor from Clovis to Los Angeles with intermediate stops at Albuquerque, Winslow and Kingman, AZ.
The service was both pricey and short lived. The Great Depression coupled with the crash of one of the planes in New Mexico led to its demise. I tried unsuccessfully to link images of a PRR ad and timetable promoting the service. For those interested in seeing these items do a Google search on air - rail transcontinental, open the Wikipedia article and click on the references listed.
The train was the Airway Limited and the participants were Pennsylvania Railroad, Transcontinental Air Transport (TAT, later TWA), and Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway.
The train didn't last long, as air transport quickly developed to the point that airplanes could cover the distance alone (albeit with multiple stops) and night flying became safer. (Airplanes covered the daylight hours and trains handled the night transportation, in the Airway arrangement.)
In 1929 a rapid (for the time) transcontintntal passenger service was inaugurated that shaved about 24 hours off the best previous New York - Los Angeles travel time. Describe this service, the route, and the participating railroads.
KCSfanWould the two trains be the Milwaukee Road's and B&O's Columbians? Mark
Would the two trains be the Milwaukee Road's and B&O's Columbians?
Mark - you got it!
I believe the B&O Columbian had a thru Jersey City-Chicago car that was carried on the Capitol Limited to Baltimore or Washington so "technically" you could have went from Jersey City-Baltimore-Washington to Seattle-Tacoma on the Columbian - sort of a makeshift transcontinental "service".
Westbound, you would have had a generous 15 hour layover between the Columbians in Chicago whereas eastbound the layover would have been 8 hours. As I hinted in my last post, this was possible until the Milwaukee Road Columbian name was dropped in late 1954-early 1955 and the train would become an Avery, Idaho-Minneapolis service. By 1957, the remaining portions of the service that approximated the Milwaukee Road Columbian would be gone.
Mark - you have the next question.
I should have added that the Milw Rd Columbian ran between Chicago and Seattle-Tacoma. IIRC the B&O train ran between Chicago and Baltimore but its eastern terminal was cut back to Washington around 1954.
daveklepperFast Mail? SP-UP-C&NW ----- PRR?
Fast Mail? SP-UP-C&NW ----- PRR?
Nope.....
Here's a clue - you could have traveled across the country on these trains that had the same name until 1954.
daveklepperThe Sante Fe had a train "The De Lux" or "De Luxe" if I recall correctly, and I think one eastern railroad also had one, but I don't remember which railroad. Probably also the New York Central. LA-Chicago and Chicago-NYC
The Sante Fe had a train "The De Lux" or "De Luxe" if I recall correctly, and I think one eastern railroad also had one, but I don't remember which railroad. Probably also the New York Central.
LA-Chicago and Chicago-NYC
The Santa Fe did have a train called the Santa Fe De Luxe which ran between Chicago and Los Angeles from 1911 to about 1916. The NYC used several variations of the De Luxe name:
- Day Coach De Luxe - New York-Buffalo - around 1928
- De Luxe Special - Chicago-New York via Detroit/MC - around 1930
- Niagara Falls De Luxe Special - Chicago-Buffalo via NYC - around 1929
Again, the western train and the eastern trains you suggest did not operate at the same time. For the name I have in mind, both trains existed at the same time and it was possible to use both trains, having the same name, in traveling from coast to coast.
daveklepperThe Exposition Flyer was a long-lasting train that lasted long after the Chicago Exposition was over. It was the predecessor of the California Zephyr, even to having some CZ cars in its consist before the CZ was inaugurated and the EF discontinued. Chicago to Oakland via the CB&Q, DRG&W, and Western Pacific (using trackage rights over the AT&SF to reach SP tracks to end at Oakland Mole). But there was also an East Coast "Exposition Flyer" that ran just during the time of the Chicago Exposition. NY and Chicago, of course, and possibly Washington as well, or Philadelphia. My guess is the latter, possibly Erie or LV-CNJ-GTW, or DL&W-NKP? For Philadelphia passengers there probably were just through Pullmans (possibly just one) from Reading Terminal on the Reading, with coach passengers changing.
The Exposition Flyer was a long-lasting train that lasted long after the Chicago Exposition was over. It was the predecessor of the California Zephyr, even to having some CZ cars in its consist before the CZ was inaugurated and the EF discontinued. Chicago to Oakland via the CB&Q, DRG&W, and Western Pacific (using trackage rights over the AT&SF to reach SP tracks to end at Oakland Mole).
But there was also an East Coast "Exposition Flyer" that ran just during the time of the Chicago Exposition. NY and Chicago, of course, and possibly Washington as well, or Philadelphia. My guess is the latter, possibly Erie or LV-CNJ-GTW, or DL&W-NKP? For Philadelphia passengers there probably were just through Pullmans (possibly just one) from Reading Terminal on the Reading, with coach passengers changing.
Dave - good guess but it wasn't the train I was thinking of. The eastern Exposition Flyer existed at least three times on the NYC;
- ca 1893 - New York-Chicago during the 1893 Chicago Worlds Fair via Cleveland and the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern,
- ca 1901 - New York-Buffalo during the 1901 Buffalo Exposition,
- ca 1933 - New York-Chicago during the 1933-34 Chicago Worlds Fair via Detroit and the Michigan Central.
The western Exposition Flyer ran from Chicago to San Francisco via the Burlington, Rio Grande and Western Pacific from 1939-1949. This train was established for the Golden Gate Exposition of 1939-1940, not for any Chicago exposition.
As you can tell from the dates, the eastern and western Flyer did not exist at the same time. The trains I'm thinking of did exist concurrently. With the answer I have in mind, it was possible to go cross country on these trains that had the same name.
Mosts world's fairs in the US, at least up through the 1964 Fair in Flushing, LI, NY, brought some kind of passenger rail marketing. Trains with special names, schedules, and equipment could be renamed regular trains or, less often, an actual extra train. Having been from the NYC area I did not find out about the "extra" services provided by the local terminating railroads for both 1939/40 and 1964 fairs until much later in my collecting career. Yes, the NYC, NH, and PRR (especially the PRR owning the LIRR) did specials for 1939/40) make a big deal of it. But so did the LV, Erie, LV, and Lackawanna, just not to the gate. From Chicago, from the midwest and South, there were special trains and marketing which might have included transportation to and from the train to the fair, hotel accomodations in the City, and other treats. I do believe Chicago, Philadelphia, St. Louis (Meet Me In St. Loius, Louie!) and San Francisco affairs all had special attention from the railroads in thier time, too.
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DeggestyYour question, ZO
Your question, ZO
This name was used on a couple of trains that departed Chicago - one to the west coast and one to the east coast. Name the train(s), RRs and endpoints.
If an interstate passenger train served only one point in a state, the Interstate Commerce Commission permitted its discontinuance without a public hearing, only official notification to the Commission. This is the loophole that permitted the Southern to discontinue the Royal Palm at Council, GA (its only Florida stop was Jacksonville) and to lop off both ends of the Augusta Special leaving only a Fort Mill-Warrenville, SC run that attracted no patronage. The equipment for the Special moved in other trains, Washington to Charlotte, leaving only one stop for the train in North Carolina (Charlotte) and Georgia (Augusta.)
ZephyrOverland In December of 1968, the Washington-New Orleans Pelican was cut back to a Washington-York, Alabama operation. York was the last stop in Alabama for the train, so service to Mississippi and Louisiana was gone. A few months later, the Bristol-Chattanooga portion was lopped off, leaving the Pelican as a Washington-Bristol train and an unnamed Chattanooga-York unnamed train, keeping the Pelican's numbers and schedule for the latter. Soon after wards, the Chattanooga-York portion was gone, leaving the Washington-Bristol portion left. By November of 1969, the name was gone, and the train itself would be gone in 1970. It looks like a textbook example of how the Southern rationalized its passenger service in the late 1960's, killing one leak link at a time in state-wide lengths.
In December of 1968, the Washington-New Orleans Pelican was cut back to a Washington-York, Alabama operation. York was the last stop in Alabama for the train, so service to Mississippi and Louisiana was gone. A few months later, the Bristol-Chattanooga portion was lopped off, leaving the Pelican as a Washington-Bristol train and an unnamed Chattanooga-York unnamed train, keeping the Pelican's numbers and schedule for the latter. Soon after wards, the Chattanooga-York portion was gone, leaving the Washington-Bristol portion left. By November of 1969, the name was gone, and the train itself would be gone in 1970.
It looks like a textbook example of how the Southern rationalized its passenger service in the late 1960's, killing one leak link at a time in state-wide lengths.
In February of '69, I bought 2 rt tickets in Tuscaloosa, one to Birmingham and back, and one to York and back, and went up to Birmingham. Going back down, the conductor, who knew me, refused to take the Tuscaloosa-York ticket, and he, at my request, asked the engineer to let me ride the engine from York to Tuscaloosa. The next month, I made use of the Tuscaloosa-York ticket when I started one of my trips that added route mileage (Cincinnati-Norfolk & Newport News-Richmond) and a train (Powhatan Arrow).
The Southern employed the same system in the fifties when it discontinued what was left of the Queen & Crescent (43 &44). The train had already been cut off north of Chattanooga several years earlier; by 3/7/54 it was gone north of Brmingham. and by 8/1/54 it was cutoff between Meridian and Pearl River, La. A stub train was operated, leaving New Orleans at 5:30 am, arriving Pearl River at 6:43 am, and leaving Pearl River at 9:10 for New Orleans. By 11/4/54, the La. train was gone, The Birmingham-Meridian operation was gone by 8/7/57.
Pelican ad
http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/images/adaccess/T/T32/T3263/T3263-med.jpeg
Mr. Freerick's photo of the Pelican at Bristol.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=217611
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