ZephyrOverlandLooks like the car actually was conveyed on the Pacific Limited from Chicago to Oakland, with the Milwaukee Road doing the honors between Chicago and Omaha - the only Overland Route train to be operated this way at the time, not running on the C&NW. I wonder if there was an error in the listings, or was it a case of the car just being switched from the San Francisco Limited to the Pacific Limited or vise versa and the railroads involved had not gotten their information synchronized. I've seen a number of such discrepancies is various issues of the Official Guide.
That's the odd one that I was thinking of. That the Milwaukee had part in an "Overland" train interested me several years ago.
So, you have the honor again.
Johnny
DeggestyZephyrOverland Deggesty ZephyrOverlandJohnny, the next question is yours. In January of 1930, it was possible to board a sleeper in San Luis Obispo and step off the same sleeper in Chicago. What was the routing (roads and trains) of this car? The car did not originate or terminate in San Luis Obispo. You would be on the Chicago-Los Angeles Pullman that ran on the Overland Route's San Francisco Limited between Chicago and Oakland and the Southern Pacific Padre between Oakland and Los Angeles. Since the Padre was an overnight train, you would be getting on or off at San Louis Obispo around 2 and 3 in the morning.That's one--but not the car that I was thinking of. It did travel in the Padre between Oakland and Los Angeles, but a different train, with closer connections, handled it east of Oakland. For some reason, the SP does not show this car in its representation even though the SP shows the train that handled it, and it is shown in the representations of the other roads that handled it.
ZephyrOverland Deggesty ZephyrOverlandJohnny, the next question is yours. In January of 1930, it was possible to board a sleeper in San Luis Obispo and step off the same sleeper in Chicago. What was the routing (roads and trains) of this car? The car did not originate or terminate in San Luis Obispo. You would be on the Chicago-Los Angeles Pullman that ran on the Overland Route's San Francisco Limited between Chicago and Oakland and the Southern Pacific Padre between Oakland and Los Angeles. Since the Padre was an overnight train, you would be getting on or off at San Louis Obispo around 2 and 3 in the morning.
Deggesty ZephyrOverlandJohnny, the next question is yours. In January of 1930, it was possible to board a sleeper in San Luis Obispo and step off the same sleeper in Chicago. What was the routing (roads and trains) of this car? The car did not originate or terminate in San Luis Obispo.
ZephyrOverlandJohnny, the next question is yours.
In January of 1930, it was possible to board a sleeper in San Luis Obispo and step off the same sleeper in Chicago. What was the routing (roads and trains) of this car? The car did not originate or terminate in San Luis Obispo.
You would be on the Chicago-Los Angeles Pullman that ran on the Overland Route's San Francisco Limited between Chicago and Oakland and the Southern Pacific Padre between Oakland and Los Angeles. Since the Padre was an overnight train, you would be getting on or off at San Louis Obispo around 2 and 3 in the morning.
Looks like the car actually was conveyed on the Pacific Limited from Chicago to Oakland, with the Milwaukee Road doing the honors between Chicago and Omaha - the only Overland Route train to be operated this way at the time, not running on the C&NW. I wonder if there was an error in the listings, or was it a case of the car just being switched from the San Francisco Limited to the Pacific Limited or vise versa and the railroads involved had not gotten their information synchronized. I've seen a number of such discrepancies in various issues of the Official Guide.
ZephyrOverland Deggesty ZephyrOverlandJohnny, the next question is yours. In January of 1930, it was possible to board a sleeper in San Luis Obispo and step off the same sleeper in Chicago. What was the routing (roads and trains) of this car? The car did not originate or terminate in San Luis Obispo. You would be on the Chicago-Los Angeles Pullman that ran on the Overland Route's San Francisco Limited between Chicago and Oakland and the Padre between Oakland and Los Angeles. Since the Padre was an overnight train, you would be getting on or off at San Louis Obispo around 2 and 3 in the morning.
You would be on the Chicago-Los Angeles Pullman that ran on the Overland Route's San Francisco Limited between Chicago and Oakland and the Padre between Oakland and Los Angeles. Since the Padre was an overnight train, you would be getting on or off at San Louis Obispo around 2 and 3 in the morning.
DeggestyZephyrOverlandJohnny, the next question is yours. In January of 1930, it was possible to board a sleeper in San Luis Obispo and step off the same sleeper in Chicago. What was the routing (roads and trains) of this car? The car did not originate or terminate in San Luis Obispo.
ZephyrOverlandThere were at least two Chicago-West Coast passenger trains that were operated on modified routings for a time in an attempt to gain additional passenger revenue. In one instance, the train was eventually discontinued. In the other instance, the train was rerouted back to its "traditional" routing. Name the trains, endpoints, the normal and modified routing and the approximate year(s) this occurred.===Johnny, you got the right train. From mid-1928 to mid-1930, the Californian was operated from Chicago to Kansas City on the Chicago & Alton, where the Rock Island and Southern Pacific took the train the rest of the way to Los Angeles. I have to admit a faux pas at this point. The clue I gave gives the impression that the train was rerouted. In actuality, the Californian was a Kansas City-Los Angeles train that was extended to Chicago via the Chicago & Alton. I just found this out tonight when I was confirming the facts. But, there was a precedent - the Golden State Limited was rerouted in early 1906 for a short time via the Chicago & Alton, but from Joliet to Kansas City. The Rock Island still took the train from Chicago to Joliet and from Kansas City southward. As for the Californian, the train was discontinued on the RI and SP in late 1930 (leaving the Golden State Limited and Apache on the traditional Golden State Route), but the Chicago & Alton portion remained as a Chicago-Kansas City train for a few months longer. The Californian was restored a few years later on the more well known RI-SP routing.
There were at least two Chicago-West Coast passenger trains that were operated on modified routings for a time in an attempt to gain additional passenger revenue. In one instance, the train was eventually discontinued. In the other instance, the train was rerouted back to its "traditional" routing. Name the trains, endpoints, the normal and modified routing and the approximate year(s) this occurred.
===
Johnny answered the second portion with the Californian. The other train I was looking for was Milwaukee Road's Columbian. In February 1931, the Columbian was rerouted from its usual Chicago-Minneapolis-Pacific Coast routing to its Omaha line from Chicago to Manilla, Iowa. From there the train traveled northwest until it rejoined the Pacific Coast Extension at Aberdeen, South Dakota. I think this was a way for the Milwaukee Road to readjust its passenger offerings in light of the deepening economic downturn - the train was combined with the Olympian between Butte and Seattle-Tacoma and the westbound run was combined with the Pacific Limited between Manilla and Chicago. This lasted only for a few months - by May 1931, the Columbian was gone, but the Manilla-Aberdeen portion remained as a local.
Johnny, the next question is yours.
ZephyrOverlandBut, there was a precedent - the Golden State Limited was rerouted in early 1906 for a short time via the Chicago & Alton, but from Joliet to Kansas City. The Rock Island still took the train from Chicago to Joliet and from Kansas City southward.
That is certainly interesting. If the current arrangement of tracks in Joliet (according to Google Maps) is the same as it was in 1906, the westbound train would come into the station, take on/let off, back out of the station and then move over to the C&A track.
I wonder if the Chicago-Joliet crews worked a suburban service train to make a full day's work.
Deggesty I had never thought of the Chicago and Alton as handling West Coast traffic, so when I was looking through the January, 1930, reprint of the Guide right I after I bought it, I was surprised to find this road handling the Californian between Chicago and Kansas City, where the RI took it on to Tucumcari; I had thought that the RI had always handled it east of Tucumcari. As to the start and stop of this routing, I have no idea.
I had never thought of the Chicago and Alton as handling West Coast traffic, so when I was looking through the January, 1930, reprint of the Guide right I after I bought it, I was surprised to find this road handling the Californian between Chicago and Kansas City, where the RI took it on to Tucumcari; I had thought that the RI had always handled it east of Tucumcari. As to the start and stop of this routing, I have no idea.
Johnny, you got the right train. From mid-1928 to mid-1930, the Californian was operated from Chicago to Kansas City on the Chicago & Alton, where the Rock Island and Southern Pacific took the train the rest of the way to Los Angeles. I have to admit a faux pas at this point. The clue I gave gives the impression that the train was rerouted. In actuality, the Californian was a Kansas City-Los Angeles train that was extended to Chicago via the Chicago & Alton. I just found this out tonight when I was confirming the facts. But, there was a precedent - the Golden State Limited was rerouted in early 1906 for a short time via the Chicago & Alton, but from Joliet to Kansas City. The Rock Island still took the train from Chicago to Joliet and from Kansas City southward. As for the Californian, the train was discontinued on the RI and SP in late 1930 (leaving the Golden State Limited and Apache on the traditional Golden State Route), but the Chicago & Alton portion remained as a Chicago-Kansas City train for a few months longer. The Californian was restored a few years later on the more well known RI-SP routing.
Ill give the other question one more day.
ZephyrOverland- one train was rerouted via a railroad that was not known for operating Chicago-West Coast trains
At the same time, the Continental Limited had, in addition to the Chicago-Portland cars that were handled all the way west of Omaha by the UP, one Chicago-Portland car that was handled by the SP west of Ogden, traversing the Modoc line between Fernley, Nev., and Klamath Falls, Ore. This route was 1272 miles from Granger, Wy., to Portland against 944 miles over the UP. The West Coast carried the car between Portland and Klamath Falls. This, of course, was not a full train.
al-in-chgoZephyrOverland KCSfan ZO, This is just a guess but could the train to the Pacific northwest have been the North Coast Ltd? Its usual route was between Logan and Garrison via Butte. I think there is a likelyhood possibility it was rerouted through Helena for a time but I'm not at all sure of that. I'll work on the train to California later on when I have more time. Mark Another good guess but thats not it. The train I'm thinking of that went to the Pacific Northwest was rerouted from 35-50% of its original route and this routing was never attempted again after this train was discontinued. Just a WAG and I apologize if this has already been ruled out by inference, but could it have been the old NP's mainline train, (perhaps named) the Northcoast Limited, if it (not sure) were in service by that name early enough that it originally ran over different routing until some of that line's worst grades and one particularly bad trestle had to be engineered around, adding miles but also adding more safety?? If that is the case, the last trains to run over full NP routing (actually BN for about the last year IIRC) would have been the Mainstreeter and the North Coast Limited, because when Amtrak came in (5-1-71) it no longer ran passengers trains over the old NP. And today only a fraction of the route is owned outright by BNSF. Montana Rail Link has part of it, and I think there's another short-line or short-line franchise, and some of it has been just taken up and gone like the old CMStP&P.
ZephyrOverland KCSfan ZO, This is just a guess but could the train to the Pacific northwest have been the North Coast Ltd? Its usual route was between Logan and Garrison via Butte. I think there is a likelyhood possibility it was rerouted through Helena for a time but I'm not at all sure of that. I'll work on the train to California later on when I have more time. Mark Another good guess but thats not it. The train I'm thinking of that went to the Pacific Northwest was rerouted from 35-50% of its original route and this routing was never attempted again after this train was discontinued.
KCSfan ZO, This is just a guess but could the train to the Pacific northwest have been the North Coast Ltd? Its usual route was between Logan and Garrison via Butte. I think there is a likelyhood possibility it was rerouted through Helena for a time but I'm not at all sure of that. I'll work on the train to California later on when I have more time. Mark
ZO,
This is just a guess but could the train to the Pacific northwest have been the North Coast Ltd? Its usual route was between Logan and Garrison via Butte. I think there is a likelyhood possibility it was rerouted through Helena for a time but I'm not at all sure of that.
I'll work on the train to California later on when I have more time.
Mark
Another good guess but thats not it. The train I'm thinking of that went to the Pacific Northwest was rerouted from 35-50% of its original route and this routing was never attempted again after this train was discontinued.
Just a WAG and I apologize if this has already been ruled out by inference, but could it have been the old NP's mainline train, (perhaps named) the Northcoast Limited, if it (not sure) were in service by that name early enough that it originally ran over different routing until some of that line's worst grades and one particularly bad trestle had to be engineered around, adding miles but also adding more safety??
If that is the case, the last trains to run over full NP routing (actually BN for about the last year IIRC) would have been the Mainstreeter and the North Coast Limited, because when Amtrak came in (5-1-71) it no longer ran passengers trains over the old NP. And today only a fraction of the route is owned outright by BNSF. Montana Rail Link has part of it, and I think there's another short-line or short-line franchise, and some of it has been just taken up and gone like the old CMStP&P.
The North Coast Limited was mentioned earlier and that is not one of the answers I am looking for.
Again, I'm looking for two trains that had unusual reroutes.
- both trains were heavyweight runs when this occurred...
- one train went to California, and the other one went to the Pacific Northwest
- one train was discontinued soon after its reroute
- these reroutes were never attempted again
more hints -
- one train was rerouted via a railroad that was not known for operating Chicago-West Coast trains...
- both trains were secondary runs on their routes
CSSHEGEWISCHThe "City of Portland" was originally a reasonably direct Chicago-Portland run. When it was combined with the "City of Denver" (date unknown), it was rerouted to Chicago-Denver-Ogden-Portland. Sometime in the mid to late 1960's, it returned to its original route on UP and the "City of Denver" was separated at Julesburg.
The "City of Portland" was originally a reasonably direct Chicago-Portland run. When it was combined with the "City of Denver" (date unknown), it was rerouted to Chicago-Denver-Ogden-Portland. Sometime in the mid to late 1960's, it returned to its original route on UP and the "City of Denver" was separated at Julesburg.
Another good guess - see my reply for Daveklepper
daveklepperI have been waiting a while, since I hoped someone would provide the definitive answers for both. But I think one was the NP North Coast Limited, rerouted via Butte and then back to the more direct route. Unsure whether this was in the 30's or as a streamliner post-WWII. The NYC-Detroit Red Arrow of the PRR was cut back from NY to Philadelphia and also given a Washington section to increase revenue but then was discontinued. This was done in the late '50's and early ''60's. Wait, you asked for train Chicago - West Coast, and the Red Arrow doesn't meet that description. How about the Portland Rose, the secondary train to the City of Portland streamliner, which I think was rerouted via Denver and then discontinued. This was post WWII. The City of Portland was merged into the City of Everywhere, sort of a combined "Cities" operaton, and rather than switching off at Green River, it probably was switched at Ogden, also a reroute.
I have been waiting a while, since I hoped someone would provide the definitive answers for both. But I think one was the NP North Coast Limited, rerouted via Butte and then back to the more direct route. Unsure whether this was in the 30's or as a streamliner post-WWII.
The NYC-Detroit Red Arrow of the PRR was cut back from NY to Philadelphia and also given a Washington section to increase revenue but then was discontinued. This was done in the late '50's and early ''60's. Wait, you asked for train Chicago - West Coast, and the Red Arrow doesn't meet that description. How about the Portland Rose, the secondary train to the City of Portland streamliner, which I think was rerouted via Denver and then discontinued. This was post WWII. The City of Portland was merged into the City of Everywhere, sort of a combined "Cities" operaton, and rather than switching off at Green River, it probably was switched at Ogden, also a reroute.
Good guesses but they are not the trains I was looking for. The trains I'm looking for had unique reroutings which were not repeated. Yes, the Portland Rose was changed from a Chicago-Portland to a Denver-Portland train, but that train ran as a Denver operation for a number of years until Amtrak.
Some hints: they were heavyweight trains, one train went to California and the other went to the Pacific Northwest.
passengerfanDeggesty DeggestyIt looks as though Zephyr Overland is the winner; a Peace Pipe to him. I hope that the Peace Pipe did not overcome Zephyr Overland. I guess that depends whats being smoked in the Peacepipe. Al - in - Stockton
Deggesty DeggestyIt looks as though Zephyr Overland is the winner; a Peace Pipe to him. I hope that the Peace Pipe did not overcome Zephyr Overland.
DeggestyIt looks as though Zephyr Overland is the winner; a Peace Pipe to him.
I hope that the Peace Pipe did not overcome Zephyr Overland.
I guess that depends whats being smoked in the Peacepipe.
Al - in - Stockton
Well, Im not going to divulge what was in that Peace Pipe.....
Sorry for the delay...
Here's the question -
KCSfan Johnny, Rightly or wrongly I assumed you were asking only for US trains but it's OK by me for ZO to include the several Canadian ones. In any event, unless you are waiting for other respondents, we need you to declare a winner. Mark
Johnny,
Rightly or wrongly I assumed you were asking only for US trains but it's OK by me for ZO to include the several Canadian ones. In any event, unless you are waiting for other respondents, we need you to declare a winner.
I appreciate Mike's giving us the Black Hawk, complete with the Indian chief's autobiography. I hope to be able to read it some time soon--perhaps when we are traveling this spring, and there is nothing excitins, such as passing scenery to take my attention.
It looks as though Zephyr Overland is the winner; a Peace Pipe to him.
The Black Hawk, CB&Q train #48 arriving Chicago from Minneapolis on Aug. 10, 1939
Black Hawk (1767-1838) rode the B&O in 1833. Excerpt from his autobiography:
Keokuk and his chiefs, during their stay at the barracks, petitioned our Great Father, the president, to release us, and pledged themselves for our good conduct. I now began to hope I would soon be restored to liberty and the enjoyment of my family and friends, having heard that Keokuk stood high in the estimation of our Great Father, because he did not join me in the war, but I was soon disappointed in my hopes. An order came from our Great Father to the White Beaver to send us on to Washington.
In a little while all were ready and left Jefferson Barracks on board of a steamboat, under charge of a young war chief and one soldier, whom the White Beaver sent along as a guide to Washington. We were accompanied by Keokuk, wife and son, Appanooce, Wapello, Poweshiek, Pashippaho, Nashashuk, Saukee, Musquaukee, and our interpreter. Our principal traders, Col. Geo. Davenport, of Rock Island, and S. S. Phelps and clerk, William Cousland, of the Yellow Banks, also accompanied us. On our way up the Ohio we passed several large villages, the names of which were explained to me. The first is called Louisville, and is a very petty village, situated on the bank of the Ohio River. The next is Cincinnati, which stands on the bank of the same river. This is a large and beautiful village and seemed to be in a thriving condition. The people gathered on the bank as we passed, in great crowds, apparently anxious to see us.
On our arrival at Wheeling the streets and river banks were crowded with people, who flocked from every direction to see us. While we remained here many called upon us and treated us with kindness, no one offering to molest or misuse us. This village is not so large as either of those before mentioned, but is quite a pretty one.
We left the steamboat then, having traveled a long distance on the prettiest river I ever saw (except our Mississippi) and took the stage. Being unaccustomed to this mode of traveling, we soon got tired and wished ourselves seated in a canoe on one of our own rivers, that we might return to our friends. We had traveled but a short distance before our carriage turned over, from which I received a slight injury, and the soldier had one arm broken. I was sorry for this accident, as the young man had behaved well.
We had a rough and mountainous country for several days, but had a good trail for our carriage. It is astonishing what labor and pains the white people have had to make this road, as it passes over several mountains, which are generally covered with rocks and timber, yet it has been made smooth and easy to travel upon.
Rough and mountainous as this country is there are many wigwams and small villages standing on the roadside. I could see nothing in the country to induce the people to live in it, and was astonished to find so many whites living on the hills.
I have often thought of them since my return to my own people, and am happy to think that they prefer living in their own country to coming out to ours and driving us from it, as many of the whites have already done. I think with them, that wherever the Great Spirit places his people they ought to be satisfied to remain, and be thankful for what He has given them, and not drive others from the country He has given them because it happens to be better then theirs. This is contrary to our way of thinking, and from my intercourse with the whites, I have learned that one great principle of their religion is "to do unto others as you wish them to do unto you." Those people in the mountains seem to act upon this principle, but the settlers on our frontiers and on our lands seem never to think of it, if we are to judge by their actions.
The first village of importance that we came to, after leaving the mountains, is called Hagerstown. It is a large village to be so far from a river and is very pretty. The people appear to live well and enjoy themselves much.
We passed through several small villages on the way to Fredericktown, but I have forgotten their names. This last is a large and beautiful village. The people treated us well, as they did at all other villages where we stopped.
Here we came to another road much more wonderful than that through the mountains. They call it a railroad, (the Baltimore and Ohio). I examined it carefully, but need not describe it, as the whites know all about it. It is the most astonishing sight I ever saw. The great road over the mountains will bear no comparison to it, although it has given the white people much trouble to make. I was surprised to see so much money and labor expended to make a good road for easy traveling. I prefer riding horse back, however, to any other way, but suppose these people would not have gone to so much trouble and expense to make a road if they did not prefer riding in their new fashioned carriages, which seem to run without any trouble, being propelled by steam on the same principle that boats are on the river. They certainly deserve great praise for their industry.
On our arrival at Washington, we called to see our Great Father, the President. He looks as if he had seen as many winters as I have, and seems to be a great brave. I had very little talk with him, as he appeared to be busy and did not seem to be much disposed to talk. I think he is a good man; and although he talked but little, he treated us very well. His wigwam is well furnished with every thing good and pretty, and is very strongly built.
He said he wished to know the cause of my going to war against his white children. I thought he ought to have known this before; and consequently said but little to him about it, as I expected he knew as well as I could tell him. He said he wanted us to go to Fortress Monroe and stay awhile with the war chief who commanded it. But having been so long from my people, I told him that I would rather return to my nation; that Keokuk had come here once on a visit to him, as we had done, and he had let him return again, as soon as he wished, and that I expected to be treated in the same manner. He insisted, however, on our going to Fortress Monroe; and as the interpreter then present could not understand enough of our language to interpret a speech, I concluded it was best to obey our Great Father, and say nothing contrary to his wishes.
http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?pageno=6&fk_files=1228084
al-in-chgo [Pretty sure IC had the Illini from Chicago to Champaign-Urbana and perhaps Amtrak still does.
[Pretty sure IC had the Illini from Chicago to Champaign-Urbana and perhaps Amtrak still does.
Al,
Good call. The IC sure did have an Illini. It was a classy little daylight train which ran between Chicago and Carbondale. It ran right past my boyhood home and I saw it many times headed by an 1100 series Pacific usually with 2 head end cars, 3 day coaches and a cafe-lounge car. All were Pullman green heavyweights. Today the Illini is an Amtrak regional financed in part by the state of Illinos which along with its companion train, the Saluki, runs to Carbondale just like its IC predecessor.
DeggestyZephyrOverlandShawnee Amtrak Chicago-CarbondaleI was really thinking of classic trains; does Amtrak really fit in? Otherwise, well done.
ZephyrOverlandShawnee Amtrak Chicago-Carbondale
I was really thinking of classic trains; does Amtrak really fit in? Otherwise, well done.
I took out the "offending" Amtrak names from my list.....
Deggesty What trains were named for Amerindian tribes and people? What road operated each one?
What trains were named for Amerindian tribes and people? What road operated each one?
Here's what I come up with, avoiding duplicates. I also included some Indian derived Canadian trains.
Algonquin CN Toronto-Algonquin ParkCayuga NY New York-Buffalo
Cheyenne Local UP Denver-Cheyenne
Cheyenne Mail UP Denver-Cheyenne
Eskimo CP Calgary-Edmonton
Hopi ATSF Los Angeles-Chicago
Montauk Express LI New York-Montauk
Montauk Special LI New York-Montauk
Omaha CNW Chicago-Omaha
Onondaga NYC Cleveland-Buffalo
Onondaga RDG CNJ DLW Philadelphia-Binghampton
Ottawa Express CN Montreal-Ottawa
Pueblo and Cripple Creek Distrct Express DRG Denver-Pueblo
Spokane UP Portland-Spokane
Seneca NYC New York-Syracuse
Shasta SP Portland-San Francisco
Shawnee Cleveland & Lake Erie Cincinnati-Toledo
Shawnee IC Chicago-Carbondale
Shinnecock Express LI Montauk-New York
Shoshone Flyer Spokane and Inland Empire
Shoshone CBQ Denver-Billings
Tuscarora NYC New York-Buffalo
Ute Colorado Midland/ATSF Denver-Grand Junction
Deggesty ]That's quite a list, Mark. I just looked through the June, 1930 Guide, and found only ten names, some of which are on your list. There's one name you listed, Apache, which was not a SFe train. Some of those trains were still running after WWII.
]That's quite a list, Mark. I just looked through the June, 1930 Guide, and found only ten names, some of which are on your list. There's one name you listed, Apache, which was not a SFe train. Some of those trains were still running after WWII.
I sure did slip up on the Apache which was a Rock Island/SP and not a Santa Fe train. The name Arapaho sticks in my mind but I can't find it listed anywhere I've look thus far hence the ??? I put after listing it. Is it just a figment of my imagination or did a train of that name exist? If so perhaps you or someone else can name the RR(s) over which it ran and its route.
KCSfan These are the names of the trains I know of that ran post WW2. I'm sure ther were others in earlier times. Mark
These are the names of the trains I know of that ran post WW2. I'm sure ther were others in earlier times.
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