OK,. they didn't change geographical directions, but they changed railroad dirctions from east to west and west to east. So they were an odd number first and an even number second and an even number first and an odd number second. Or perhaps doing exactly the same results but giving a different reason, they ran the railroad like the Briitish with up and down trains, with Macon replacing London.
We're dancing around the answer. So close (particularly the first answer) but not quite.
Bob
Possibly their train numbers were specific to the division or former railroad that they operated on, rather than bening assigned on a system-wide basis.
In contrast, most (all?) Boston-Washington through trains had the same number on both the PRR and the New Haven!
I hear tell you’re doin’ well,Good thing have come to you.I wish I had your happinessAnd you had a do-wacka-do,Wacka do, wacka-do, wacka-do.
They tell me you’re runnin’ free,Your days are never blue.I wish I had your good-luck charmAnd you had a do-wacka-do,Wacka do, wacka-do, wacka-do. (Roger Miller)
http://www.hudsoncity.net/tubesenglish/tubesandphoebesnow.html
http://world.nycsubway.org/us/path/hmhistory.html
Bob, thanks for the prompt answer. -- Mike
They didn't change directions. That's the kicker. They were either southbound or northbound all the way.
It has to do with the Central's peculiar operating practices.
Probably changing direction from westbound to southbound or northbound to eastbound. West and northbound would be odd numbers, east and southbound would be even numbers based on the general direction of the railroad acccording to timetable instruction..
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Actually, McAdoo was a capable manager and administrator. The idea of nationalizing the railroads was, as we have seen, sheer idiocy, however.
In my opinion, the railroads took a bum rap for the car shortages and service snafus that led to their nationalization. In reality, this mess was caused by the military (mainly) and other agencies loading cars and sending them to eastern ports long before ocean transportation was available for this freight, forcing them to use the cars as warehouses until such transportation was available.
Now for my question:
On the Central of Georgia Railway, trains traveling between Atlanta and Albany, GA, (Southland, Flamingo, Dixie Flyer, et al) changed numbers at Macon.
Why?
AWP290 His name was William Gibbs McAdoo and he was also Wilson's Secretary of the Treasury, and his son-in-law as well. He built the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad and was originally from Marietta, GA He was succeeded as Director General of the USRA by Walker S. Hines. Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
His name was William Gibbs McAdoo and he was also Wilson's Secretary of the Treasury, and his son-in-law as well.
He built the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad and was originally from Marietta, GA
He was succeeded as Director General of the USRA by Walker S. Hines.
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
A name that goes down in infamy! Ummm, McAdoo not Hanson!
On Dec. 28, 1917, two days after establishing the USRA, President Wilson appointed somebody to be in charge of it, the Director General of Railroads. What was his name and what railroad had he built?
Mike
wanswheel Reading RR to Manville, NJ. Then, continuing with Reading engines and crews, on Lehigh Valley tracks to West Newark Junction and PRR tracks to Manhattan Transfer.
Reading RR to Manville, NJ. Then, continuing with Reading engines and crews, on Lehigh Valley tracks to West Newark Junction and PRR tracks to Manhattan Transfer.
Bingo! This became effective April 28, 1918 on orders of the USRA on account of overcrowded PRR trains and sparsely patronized B&O trains. Initially, as part of the order, the B&O was allowed to operate only Washington-New York trains to Pennsylvania Station - no through cars for points beyond Washington. Soon afterwards, through cars started to show up on a limited basis to B&O points. By November, the Lehigh Valley was also allowed to operate through trains to Pennsylvania Station as well.
Wanswheel, go ahead and ask the next question.
The Manville and LV connection sounds plausable...and is west of Bound Brook...engine change is confusing unless it was a weight or clearence problem. This is not the Aldene Plan as it is at least 20 miles west of Aldene, it is a RDG-LV connection and does not involve CNJ (Aldene is CNJ connection to LV at Aldene).
But the B&O had always used its own engines to Jersey City, so why would they change to Reading engines in Philadelphia just to run to Manhattan Transfer? Besides, is not that esentially the same as the Alden plan?
daveklepper The Reading main to Bound Brook did cross the PRR branch south and west from Trenton, I think to Philipsburg or Northumberland or someplace in northern PA. So if the CofNJ was out completely, that would still leave the Reading and have the B&O run up the PRR main from Trenton north. This PRR branch was served by a doodlebug passenger train as late as 1953. Never rode it but saw the doodlebug (probably by then diesel-electric and not gas-electric as originally built) in Trenton.
The Reading main to Bound Brook did cross the PRR branch south and west from Trenton, I think to Philipsburg or Northumberland or someplace in northern PA. So if the CofNJ was out completely, that would still leave the Reading and have the B&O run up the PRR main from Trenton north. This PRR branch was served by a doodlebug passenger train as late as 1953. Never rode it but saw the doodlebug (probably by then diesel-electric and not gas-electric as originally built) in Trenton.
You're talking about the Bel-Del, Dave, that I mentioned earlier but I can't really see that line having been used because of the track layouts. The Belvedere and Delaware allowed the PRR to offer service to Tobyhanna, PA on the DL&W from Manunka Chunk, NJ junction just above Belvedere. The passenger service later was cut back to Stroudsburg and used a doodlebug; eventually the junction was severed in the early 50's and the service terminated at Phillipsburg, NJ with RDC's until the end in the late 50's. PRR/NYNH&H Federal Express from D.C. to Boston ran this route from Trenton to the L&HR just south of Belvedere thence to Maybrook and the Poughkeepsie Bridge to Danbury to New Haven to Boston for a while before the opening of Penn Sta. in NY (DL&W ran a through connection out of Hoboken to Andover Jct. for NY-Boston sleeper service on this train).
But, this route did not play a role in the Royal Blue scheme as far as I can ascertain.
Ok...I think there was a connection somewhere near Metutchen on the PRR and east of Belle Meade on the RDG...not the RDG Port Reading Branch...which still exists as an industrial track off the Corridor today but does not go all the way to CSX.
daveklepperI finally remembered what may be the correct answer. Using the CofNJ all the way to Newark means going east through Elizabethport and then crossing Newark Bay a second time, a roundabout route. I suspect that during WWI the CNJ-PRR crossing at Elizabeth itself, a crossing that still exists but without passenger service on the old CNJ line, was not grade separated. I think that came with electrication of the PRR main. But in any case logically there was probably a good track connection at that point and it would have been easy for the B&O trains to leave the CofNJ main to use the PRR through Newark to Manhattan Transfer and the DD-1's to take them to Penn Station. The connection probably bypassed the CNJ Elizabeth station, which was normally a stop for most if not all B&O Jersey City trains. But they would have used CNJ tracks from Bound Brook to Elizabeth to reach the PRR. The reason most if not all B&O trains stopped at Elizabeth is that it was an excellent station for suburban Jersey residents to board trains to the south and west, saving lots of time over going into NYC.
I finally remembered what may be the correct answer. Using the CofNJ all the way to Newark means going east through Elizabethport and then crossing Newark Bay a second time, a roundabout route. I suspect that during WWI the CNJ-PRR crossing at Elizabeth itself, a crossing that still exists but without passenger service on the old CNJ line, was not grade separated. I think that came with electrication of the PRR main. But in any case logically there was probably a good track connection at that point and it would have been easy for the B&O trains to leave the CofNJ main to use the PRR through Newark to Manhattan Transfer and the DD-1's to take them to Penn Station.
The connection probably bypassed the CNJ Elizabeth station, which was normally a stop for most if not all B&O Jersey City trains. But they would have used CNJ tracks from Bound Brook to Elizabeth to reach the PRR.
The reason most if not all B&O trains stopped at Elizabeth is that it was an excellent station for suburban Jersey residents to board trains to the south and west, saving lots of time over going into NYC.
Here's a hint: the CofNJ was not involved with the reroute.
henry6Ok, I'm ending the Royal Blue Line at the end of B&O track thus elimnating RDG and CNJ. But to follow your "train of thought" then I would venture E'port to Waverly Yard to PRR either through NEwark or via Hudson Tower and Manhatten Transfer.
Ok, I'm ending the Royal Blue Line at the end of B&O track thus elimnating RDG and CNJ. But to follow your "train of thought" then I would venture E'port to Waverly Yard to PRR either through NEwark or via Hudson Tower and Manhatten Transfer.
Here's a hint: the RDG was still involved.
henry6So that would mean getting on PRR rails in Delaware before the B&O got onto RDG rails? Or did they go on to Wayne Junction? East of there there there is no other chance execpt coming down from West Trenton to Trenton on the Bel Del which I don't believe was a feasible connection or route.
So that would mean getting on PRR rails in Delaware before the B&O got onto RDG rails? Or did they go on to Wayne Junction? East of there there there is no other chance execpt coming down from West Trenton to Trenton on the Bel Del which I don't believe was a feasible connection or route.
Your guesses are getting colder. Look at my previous answer. The eastern end of the Royal Blue Line would be around New York.
henry6The CNJ station in Newark was a stub end station on a line from the east, Jersey City, and not connected to the CNJ main line which crossed under the PRR at Elizabeth. The "Aldene" connectin between the CNJ and the LV was not built until the 60's so that, coupled with the Hunter Tower connection, was not viable. The best bet for a PRR/B&O connection lies somewhere down in the City of Brotherly Love (unless you are a Pittsburg Penguin, New York Ranger, Montreal Canadien, or Chicago Blackhawks fan in which case its that place across the Delaware River from Camden).
The CNJ station in Newark was a stub end station on a line from the east, Jersey City, and not connected to the CNJ main line which crossed under the PRR at Elizabeth. The "Aldene" connectin between the CNJ and the LV was not built until the 60's so that, coupled with the Hunter Tower connection, was not viable. The best bet for a PRR/B&O connection lies somewhere down in the City of Brotherly Love (unless you are a Pittsburg Penguin, New York Ranger, Montreal Canadien, or Chicago Blackhawks fan in which case its that place across the Delaware River from Camden).
The route modification was done nearer the eastern end of the Royal Blue Line, instead of the Philadelphia area.
daveklepperAt that time the present Newark Pennsylvania Station did not exist, and there was a track connection between the then surface-level PRR Newark station and the Jersey Central Newark Station, the latter a station that lasted until well after WWII. I believe that was the route and not the route via the Lehigh Valley used by the Aldein Plan and still in use by NJT for the Raritan Valley trains and that would of course also be used by any restoration of passenger service to West Trenton over the Reading line. (Bound Brook being the juction of the Reading and CNJ.) What I am not certain about, is whether these B&O trains used the old PRR or the CofNJ station in Newark. I think they would have had to use the former, because my memory says the CofNJ stration was actually a terminal, stub-end, while the old PRR station was a through station. They exchanged steam for DD-1's at Manhattan Transfer just like the PRR and LV trains did. This probably forced the PRR to run more trains to Exchange Place in Jersey City.
At that time the present Newark Pennsylvania Station did not exist, and there was a track connection between the then surface-level PRR Newark station and the Jersey Central Newark Station, the latter a station that lasted until well after WWII. I believe that was the route and not the route via the Lehigh Valley used by the Aldein Plan and still in use by NJT for the Raritan Valley trains and that would of course also be used by any restoration of passenger service to West Trenton over the Reading line. (Bound Brook being the juction of the Reading and CNJ.)
What I am not certain about, is whether these B&O trains used the old PRR or the CofNJ station in Newark. I think they would have had to use the former, because my memory says the CofNJ stration was actually a terminal, stub-end, while the old PRR station was a through station.
They exchanged steam for DD-1's at Manhattan Transfer just like the PRR and LV trains did.
This probably forced the PRR to run more trains to Exchange Place in Jersey City.
No exactly. Basically, the CofNJ was shut out of the Royal Blue Line during this time period.
daveklepperRight on! Looks like now you are the winner and should ask the next question.
Right on! Looks like now you are the winner and should ask the next question.
Between 1918 and 1926 the B&O was able to operate its New York trains to Pennsylvania Station in Manhattan, instead of Jersey City. What was the routing the B&O trains used to get to Pennsylvania Station?
daveklepperThat is one. Another on the same railroad please?
That is one. Another on the same railroad please?
The Frisco Firefly?
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