Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[Texas Zepher]

The epicenter of "out of many, one".   I presume that since this is used on many seals and coins of the USA this is refering to Washington DC.

If you mean 60 years ago to the date I don't know.  The 1938 "streamlined" Capitol Limited was not really streamlined cars but heavyweights with streamlining....  But the 1939 ACL Champion or the 1939 SAL Silver Meteor were both real streamliners.

If it were May 1941 then I could take the B&O  National Limited.
In June 1941 I could add the RF&P, ACL, FEC Tamiami Champion.
And if it were November 1941  I could add a ride one the Southern's Southerner.
Finally if it was December 1941 one could add the RF&P, SAL Orange Blossom Special. 

?

 

 

[FlyingCrow]

Ok...here's a poser:

60 years ago, what streamliner would take you the epicenter of E Pluribus Unum?

 

 

[ZephyrOverland]

FlyingCrow

I'll take a stab..... seems I read this in an old book named :"Pioneer Railroad" .   You know, one of those published during a railroad's 100th anniversary.

 

CHICAGO & NORTH WESTERN

Buck, you got it.  That phrase was used by the C&NW in the years before WWI as a tag line for their overall passenger service. 

You have the next question.

[FlyingCrow]

I'll take a stab..... seems I read this in an old book named :"Pioneer Railroad" .   You know, one of those published during a railroad's 100th anniversary.

 

CHICAGO & NORTH WESTERN

[ZephyrOverland]

Texas Zepher

 

ZephyrOverland:

Which railroad had "The Best of Everything?"

 

 

Which railroad had it, or which railroad used it as a slogan?   For no particular reason,  I'm guessing the Boston & Maine. 

 

I put that in quotes because it was a slogan used by a railroad.  I am looking for the railroad that used that phrase.  It wasn't the Boston and Maine.

[Texas Zepher]

ZephyrOverland

Which railroad had "The Best of Everything?"

Which railroad had it, or which railroad used it as a slogan?   For no particular reason,  I'm guessing the Boston & Maine. 

[ZephyrOverland]

FlyingCrow

Take it away...your turn.

Which railroad had "The Best of Everything?"

[FlyingCrow]

 

Was it the PRR Trail Blazer?

 

 

Sure was, Zephyr.   I'm sure it was somewhat of a "novelty" until WW2 came along and those who had nowhere else to crash on a crowded train appreciated the convenience of a handy place to stash their stuff.

Take it away...your turn.

 

[wanswheel]

Windy City Whistlers

Excerpt from The Life of James McNeill Whistler by E.R. & J. Pennell (1908)

The American Whistlers are descended directly from John Whistler, of the Irish branch. In his youth, he ran away from home and enlisted in the British army as a private, and the legend is that Sir Kensington Whistler, an English cousin, an officer in the same regiment, objected to having a relative in the ranks. John Whistler, therefore, was transferred to another regiment, in which he was colour-sergeant, just starting for the American colonies to join Burgoyne's army. He arrived in time to surrender at Saratoga, October 17, 1777. After this, he went back to England, received his honourable discharge from the army, and later eloped with Anna, daughter of Sir Edward Bishop, or Bischopp. He liked what he had seen of the colonies and, with his wife, returned and settled at Hagerstown, Maryland. He again enlisted, this time in the United States army. He was wounded in St. Clair's defeat by the Indians, November 4, 1791, rose to be captain in the First U.S. Infantry, with the brevet rank of major and served in the war of 1812 against Great Britain. In 1803 he was stationed at Detroit; later at Fort Dearborn, which he helped to build; and Fort Wayne, in what was then the North-West-Territory, later Indiana. According to Mr. Eddy, Whistler once said to a visitor from Chicago:

"Chicago, dear me, what a wonderful place!  I really ought to visit it some day - for, you know, my grandfather founded the city and my uncle was the last commander of Fort Dearborn!"

Excerpt from The Pictorial History of Fort Wayne, Indiana by B.J. Griswold (1917)

[Captain John] Whistler made the trip from Detroit to the site of Chicago, by way of the Straits of Mackinaw, accompanied by his wife, his son, Lieutenant William Whistler, and bride, and a younger son, George Washington Whistler. Troops marching overland from Detroit to the site of Chicago arrived at their destination at almost the same time that Whistler's schooner reached the end of its journey. After the erection of the stockade and blockhouses, Whistler became the commandant.

Excerpt from Chicago and the Old Northwest 1673-1835 by Milo Milton Quaife (1913)

The propriety of designating Kinzie the "father of Chicago" is dubious. No one individual can properly claim exclusive right to this title. The event which, more adequately than any other, signalizes the beginning of modern white settlement here was the founding of Fort Dearborn; and the man who with more propriety than any other may be regarded as the "father" of the modern city is Captain John Whistler, who built the first fort and for seven years dominated the life within and around its walls.

[al-in-chgo]

Was it the rear car on the (1955) General Motors Aerotrain? 

[ZephyrOverland]

FlyingCrow

The Next Question

This train featured a lounge observation with luggage racks.   Train Name and Railroad.

Was it the PRR Trail Blazer?

 

 

 

[/quote]

[FlyingCrow]

Deggesty

 

I remember seeing  the interior picture of such an observation car, but I do not remember for certain what road it was. I'll guess the KCS' Southern Belle. I thought the car looked odd with the racks.

 

Nope......try again!!!  

 

It does look odd indeed.    * Years and years ago I was actually part of the KC RR Museum...we obtained KCS Tavern Obs "Hospitality"....no luggage racks there. ****

[Deggesty]

FlyingCrow

Thanks, Dave, and Happy New Year to everyone as well from not so sunny Florida (right now)

 

The Next Question

This train featured a lounge observation with luggage racks.   Train Name and Railroad.

 

 

 

 

I remember seeing  the interior picture of such an observation car, but I do not remember for certain what road it was. I'll guess the KCS' Southern Belle. I thought the car looked odd with the racks.

[FlyingCrow]

Thanks, Dave, and Happy New Year to everyone as well from not so sunny Florida (right now)

 

The Next Question

This train featured a lounge observation with luggage racks.   Train Name and Railroad.

 

 

 

 

[ZephyrOverland]

Just wanted to wish everyone here a healthy, prosperous and

Happy New Year!

Here's to more interesting and engaging classic train questions in 2011!

[daveklepper]

The next question is yours.   I believe George Washington Wistler also engineered the Boston and Albany's route between Springfield and Albany, through the Birkshires.

[FlyingCrow]

Wow...Dave.    That's a good one, but because I took 2 classes in American Art years ago....I remembered it.  And for another reason...I'll mention at the end

ART?  No, not American Refrigerator Transit, but art-art....as in a famous artist and NOT his mother.   While James Whistler painted his mother's portrait and it became an American icon, his FATHER, George Washington Whistler along with William Gibbs McNeill were the primary civil engineers for the B&O.    GW Whistler was so close to his friend McNeill, that James actually has 3 first names, McNeill being the third.

George went to tsarist Russia (and died there) to do the work on the Moscow-St. Petersburg rail line.    

A descendant relation of Wm Gibbs McNeill family, C.W. Gibbs, became chief engineer of the Rio Grande Southern as well as other Mear's lines.   HIS grandson, John Gibbs Engstrom, was or is one of the owners of Athearn, Inc. after Irv Athearn passed away.

While I lived in Phoenix years ago, I became friends with John Engstrom, who was then an Sn3 modeler like myself and Jan Rons, and owner of one of the rare, beautiful silver Otto Mears passes....he showed it to me.

Whew.

 

[daveklepper]

Actually, there were hundreds of possible routings.   Rembember that the NYC allowed side trips to Niagra Falls, and possibly even to Toronto with use the CP from Toronto to (Windsor) Detroit.   Or you could go via Cincinnati or Indianapolis!   The PRR allowed to go via Washington and even via Detroit using the Wabash to Fort Wayne (did this eastbound).   With side trips to Princeton, and Atalntic City!   The B&O also had many options.   And while through LV cars ran on the CN-GTW, the LV would ticket you via the Nickel Plate, and the Lackawanna would ticket you via the CN-GTW if you wanted it.   Then there is the real screwey possibility of using the LV to Willksbarre, the Laural Line interurban (like the North Shore, the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley wrote tickets on any railroad as well connecting bus lines!   One ticket summer of 1952 Wilksbarre - Carbondale, L&WV -  D&H!) to Scranton, and then the Lackwawanna west from there.   And I didn't include the C&O, reachable in Washington via either the B&O-P&R-CRRNJ combination or the PRR, and usually ending up on the NYC Cincinnati - Chicago.   But the C&O did run its own Cincinnati - Hammond, IN local, with through ticketing on the South Shore to Chicago.

Question:   Name the American railroad engineer (design engineer, not locomotive engineer) who designed and oversaw the construction of the original Moscow - St. Petersburg Railroad, and give as much information on his background and biography as you can in say no more than 1000 words.   (Of course he did USA railroad design and construction work as well!) 

[wanswheel]

The Patersonian and Bud from Asbury Park 

http://www.timetableworld.com/mapclick.php?id=3&section_id=645

[henry6]

Flying Crow named the railroads for the most part...NYC was West Shore but NYSW didn't play the game.

And although I was looking mostly at reaching Buffalo, Dave gave good explanations on how to get to the hinterlands.

WS to Albany, NYC to Buffalo

O&W to eithr Sidney, NY then D&H to BInghamton and Erie or Lackawanna west OR

 O&W to Onieda and NYC west.

Erie: direct to Buffalo or Chicago

DL&W direct to Buffalo, NKP and other connections west

LV direct to Buffalo, NKP and other connections West

PRR to Harrisburg with connection to Buffalo or direct to Chicago

CNJ to Allentown and RDG to Harrisburg, PRR to CHi or Buffalo

CNJ to Scranton but change of trains and railroad (DL&W) to Buffalo

B&O to Baltimore to Pittsburgh to BR&P to Buffalo or direct to Chicago

NOT ALL WERE DIRECT CONNECTIONS NOR THROUGH TRAINS, JUST POSSIBLE ROUTINGS; IMAGAINATION AND POURING OVER GUIDES WOULD OF COURSE COME UP WITH MANY OTHER ROUTINGS AND GAMES. (Erie to Salamanca, BR&P to Buffalo;  West Shore all the way to Buffalo and Niagra Falls at one time, and so on.  Even O&W to OSwego and Rome Watertown and Ogdensburg (NYC Hojac) to Niagra Falls...oh, its probably endless!!!  RDG via Harrisburg and Gettysburg to....)

So, Dave, rather than drag this out for minutia and milleniums, take it away.  And Happy New Year everyone!

[daveklepper]

Reply to Henry's question.   1.   West Shore New York Central to Albany from Weehawken (ferry to 42nd St., NYC), Albany to Chicago via Toledo or Detroit via NYC.    2.   NYO&W from Weehawken  to Onianta? then Erie to Chicago direct or via Buffalo and Nickle Plate or CN-GTW or NYC. 3.  Erie from Jersey City direct or via Buffalo and connections. 4.  Jersey Central from Jersey City to Reading to Harrisburg "Queen of the Valley", directly adjacent to PRR station and PRR to Chicago via Fort Wayne or via Richmond.  5.  Jercey Central - Reading - B&O thorugh trains at regular fare to Chicago via Washington and Pittsburgh. 6.  DL&W - NKP through service from Hoboken via Buffalo.  7,  PRR service from Exchange Place, Jersey City with transfer to through trains from Penn Station at Newark or Trrenton. 8.  From Jersey City, train to Willksbarre, Lehigh Valley through cars from Willksbarre via Buffalo and CN-GTW or change to NYC or NKP at Buffalo.

[FlyingCrow]

Henry...I think you asked about 8 ways to get from the NY to Buffalo, but I sort of lost the gist in all the discussion about the Maple Leaf.     A guess for the railroads to start this off.

NYC

ERIE

LV

DL&W

NYO&W

CNJ - B&O - BR&P

PRR

NYS&W 

[wanswheel]

1952 timetable has the eastbound Maple Leaf at Ithaca.

http://www.timetableworld.com/mapclick.php?id=3&section_id=494

Newspaper articles have the Maple Leaf at Ithaca in certain other years, particularly 1959.

http://files.usgwarchives.org/pa/1pa/xmisc/lvrr02.txt

[henry6]

The Interstate Express in fact did not go to Scranton, at least not the station, but was handed off at the west leg of the Hyde Park Wye I believe.  A freind of mine who worked the railroads at the time use to deadhead on the train out of  Bingahmton for Wilkes Barre or Pittston and has some great stories.  Yes, it is probable that RDG had several trains out of Broad St Shed instead of just one.  The Interstate Express actually had a D.C. connection for U.S. Mail and Express and thus ran seperately than the LV connections.  It also makes sense because the LV and the CNJ interchanges were different, LV at Bethlehem and CNJ at Allentown I think.
 
Well, no takers yet on my question.  I'm chalking that up to the HOliday and will therefore leave it hang until answered or 1/3/11, whichever comes first.

[Deggesty]

henry6

Neither the Maple Leaf nor any of its predecessors ever ran via Ithaca.  But you do bring up the intresting point that Maple Leaf was the name applied apparently when the train was dieselized and "streamlined" after WWII. The RDG did have more Pullman services than this one to Buffalo. I believe the same train dragged a Pullman up to the CNJ for the Interstate Express which was again handed off to the Lackawanna to take to Syracuse.  In my 1958 Guide westbound passenger service to Williamsport was cut back to Shamoken so the sleeper to Newberry shown in the 1927 guide as gone.  And since the sleeper went to Newberry instead of just W'msprt. it might be assumed the car continued west via the NYC north or the PRR west to Erie or Buffalo (more digging needed on that).

Henry, I do not know just when the name was changed to The Maple Leaf, but the November, 1939 Guide shows this name.

As to Pullman service in/out of Reading Terminal, in February, 1950, there were three lines, each one leaving and arriving on a different train--Philadelphia to Toronto, Buffalo, and Syracuse. The timetable with the equipment listing showing the car to Scranton has an interesting note declaring that coach passengers for points on the D.L.&W. will not be received. Perhaps they thought that even though seven minutes (in at 1:11 and out at 1:18) was long enough to switch the sleepr, it was not long enough for coach passengers to move from one train to another.

[henry6]

Neither the Maple Leaf nor any of its predecessors ever ran via Ithaca.  But you do bring up the intresting point that Maple Leaf was the name applied apparently when the train was dieselized and "streamlined" after WWII. The RDG did have more Pullman services than this one to Buffalo. I believe the same train dragged a Pullman up to the CNJ for the Interstate Express which was again handed off to the Lackawanna to take to Syracuse.  In my 1958 Guide westbound passenger service to Williamsport was cut back to Shamoken so the sleeper to Newberry shown in the 1927 guide as gone.  And since the sleeper went to Newberry instead of just W'msprt. it might be assumed the car continued west via the NYC north or the PRR west to Erie or Buffalo (more digging needed on that).

[daveklepper]

You are right, and we all learn from each other, and I said I was happy to let Henry ask the next question.  So I guess it was only in the post-WWII era that the LV Maple Leaf served Ithaca.   Is that correct?   Also, was not the Maple Leaf Pullman the ONLY Pullman operated on the Reading, at least in the post-WWII era, into Reading Terminal.   (Pullmans did of course run over the Reading on B&O, on through trains to the west, but they used the Philly B&O station.)   A Cornel red car among all the dark green/

[Deggesty]

daveklepper

I would also note that I got all the railroads correctly and Henry did not.   I knew the TH&B only handled the through NYC-CP trains and none from the LV and CN.   But I also knew that the LVT had to use NYC trackage rights to serve Buffalo.   The short stretch of NYC track connected the LVT with the CN and was used by freights as well as passenger trains.

I frankly just do not believe that the Maple Leaf NEVER served Ithaca.   I recall a letter or report of a Cornel student traveling to Chicago via a Pullman on the Maple Leaf.   So please check your OG's and posibly you will find that at one time it did serve Ithaca.  And if the train itself did not run through to Chicago, there must have been a through Pullman or several at one time or another.  

Of course it is possible that there was an Ithaca setout and pullout Pullman to Chicago at one time that ran on a connecting train from Ithaca, but that seems unlikely.   Or did it run on a different LV train to connect with the CN's "own" Maple Leaf?

 

LV trains into Pennsylvania Station had train crews into Pennsyllvania Station, but the GG-1 or R-1 or P-5 locomotive crews were strickly PRR.   When the LV ran into Jersey City via Newark, the LV engine crews did run over the PRR through Newark to Jersey City.

 

If Henry wishes to ask the next question, by all means I'll be glad to defer to him.

Dave, I asked about the situation with the Maple Leaf sixty years ago, which was in 1950. In 1950, the The Maple Leaf did not go into Ithaca. I also asked about a city in New York State that the train bypassed. As I confessed, I should have specified that the bypassed city was served by trains of the same road that operated the Maple Leaf. I am sorry that I was not more specific. I did not ask about trackage rights; I asked about the roads that operated the train with their crews; the Guide and public timetables do not mention trackage rights, nor do they mention the situation in which an engine change, with an engine crew of a different road, is necessary; in this situation., the train was still a Lehigh Valley train, even though a PRR engine crew was necessary to enter Manhattan.

In 1930, #3, The Toronto-Chicago Express and #2, The Philadelphia-New York Express did carry a NYC-Chicago car, and they did not go through Ithaca; these trains were not called The Maple Leaf.

It is true that not everybody has the same specific information about train operation, and if one does not have the specific information that is requested, he can guess--and should not be disturbed if he guesses wrong and should be happy if he guesses right.

 

[Deggesty]

daveklepper

I would also note that I got all the railroads correctly and Henry did not.   I knew the TH&B only handled the through NYC-CP trains and none from the LV and CN.   But I also knew that the LVT had to use NYC trackage rights to serve Buffalo.   The short stretch of NYC track connected the LVT with the CN and was used by freights as well as passenger trains.

I frankly just do not believe that the Maple Leaf NEVER served Ithaca.   I recall a letter or report of a Cornel student traveling to Chicago via a Pullman on the Maple Leaf.   So please check your OG's and posibly you will find that at one time it did serve Ithaca.  And if the train itself did not run through to Chicago, there must have been a through Pullman or several at one time or another.  

Of course it is possible that there was an Ithaca setout and pullout Pullman to Chicago at one time that ran on a connecting train from Ithaca, but that seems unlikely.   Or did it run on a different LV train to connect with the CN's "own" Maple Leaf?

 

LV trains into Pennsylvania Station had train crews into Pennsyllvania Station, but the GG-1 or R-1 or P-5 locomotive crews were strickly PRR.   When the LV ran into Jersey City via Newark, the LV engine crews did run over the PRR through Newark to Jersey City.

 

If Henry wishes to ask the next question, by all means I'll be glad to defer to him.

Dave, I asked about the situation with the Maple Leaf sixty years ago, which was in 1950. In 1950, the The Maple Leaf did not go into Ithaca. I also asked about a city in New York State that the train bypassed. As I confessed, I should have specified that the bypassed city was served by trains of the same road that operated the Maple Leaf. I am sorry that I was not more specific. I did not ask about trackage rights; I asked about the roads that operated the train with their crews; the Guide and public timetables do not mention trackage rights, nor do they mention the situation in which an engine change, with an engine crew of a different road, is necessary; in this situation., the train was still a Lehigh Valley train, even though a PRR engine crew was necessary to enter Manhattan.

In 1930, #3, The Toronto-Chicago Express and #2, The Philadelphia-New York Express did carry a NYC-Chicago car, and they did not go through Ithaca; these trains were not called The Maple Leaf.

It is true that not everybody has the same specific information about train operation, and if one does not have the specific information that is requested, he can guess--and should not be disturbed if he guesses wrong and should be happy if he guesses right.

 

[henry6]

I alrady have pose the next question.   But at your behest, Dave, I rechecked my 1958 guide to confirm that the Maple Leaf did not run via Ithaca.  I also dug back to my July 1927 guide which of course does not show a "Maple Leaf" but does show a "Lehigh Limited" on virtually the same schedule with an additiona through car to Rochester; it also did not serve Ithaca but rather picked up passengers at Geneva from a connecting train.  If my memory serves via public and employee timetables, trains on this schedule never served Ithaca.  No where is there mentions of the Maple Leaf or the Lehigh  Limited having through cars to Chicago but only those cities we've stated and by CN connections only to or via Detroit.