Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[NP Eddie]

RC has it correctly.  Next one to you.

 

Ed Burns

[Overmod]

Incidentally mine was cars that had 'Maryland' in the name somewhere. In the Southeast only, really, 'by the grace of God' but still...

[SD70Dude]

South of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Overmod]

SD70Dude

South of the Mason-Dixon line.

So is a good chunk of New Jersey. 

(Yeah, yeah, not 'really', but extend the line east and see what happens.

(IIRC there was actually some congressperson who thought there was slavery in south Jersey before the Civil War for this 'reason'...)

[rcdrye]

This small state had at least six Union Stations.  Two railroads shared four of them (with some other railroads).  Name the state and the other two which were not part of that group.

There were other shared stations in the state that were not named as Union Stations. In those cases the stations were operated by one railroad on some kind of shared revenue basis.

[daveklepper]

The State is Vermont. and the Central Vermont and Boston and Maine shared Union Stations at Brattleboro, Bellows Falls, Clairmont Jucnction, and White River Junction.  The Rutland also made an appearance at Bellows Falls and shared a station at Bennington with the Boston and Maine.   The Canadian Pacific shared a station at Wells River Junction with the Boston and Maine.

[rcdrye]

Pretty close.  The station at Claremont Junction is in New Hampshire (the one you're looking for isn't far away, but IS on the Vermont side of the river).  Wells River was a Montpelier & Wells River (later Barre & Chelsea) station serving as an agency for B&M and CP.  The remaining Union Station did not serve the B&M after 1926, though trains with B&M equipment regularly called there.  White River Jct. also served the Woodstock Ry. until 1937.

An interesting variation was the station at Alburgh VT on the Rutland and the Central Vermont Rouses Point sub.  Owned by the Rutland, it had a CV agent in rented space from time to time, or the Rutland agent handled what little CV business there was, including handling train orders for the gantlet (CV/Rutland) bridge to Rouses Point, an arrangement that stemmed from CV being the "senior" railroad.

Once service is restored July 19, four of the six Union Stations will be seeing passenger trains again.

[daveklepper]

You are correct.  Clairmont is in Vermont, but the station, which I actually used ulonce (with about 200 fellow Wah-Kee-Nah campers and our counselors) in August 1945) is in New Hampshire and was Clairmont Junction, not Clairmont.  We exited ex-PRR P-54 B&M coaches pulled by a Mogal from Concord and boarded regular grey-interior New Haven coaches on the souihbound Day White Mountans Express to GCT with a B&M Pacific up front to Springfield.

The correct Vermont station is Windsor.

Also went through Clairmont Junction in Spring 1950 on an NRHS Round-the-Mountains fan-trip.  Photos somewhere (hopefully still somewhere) n this website, but not at Clairmont Jc. specifically.

[daveklepper]

As far as  "after 1926."  recall that the public still regarded them as B&M trains and used B&M, as well as CV, tickets, and were still shown as B&M in the public timetables.  Correct?

[rcdrye]

Windsor is correct.  Claremont Jct. was and is in the city of Claremont NH.  The stub of the B&M/Claremont & Concord still goes to downtown Claremont from "The Junction". Before 1930 streetcars of the Claremont Ry. (Light & Power) also called there.

The other one I'm looking for was served by trains shown in the B&M public timetables, even though the line it was on was sold by B&M in 1926. The line also served one of the non-Union Station stations I mentioned earlier.

[daveklepper]

Not certain about the details:  I believe the B&M sod lines running into Canada.  Possibly the station you are requesting is one in Newport or sherbrook.  Not clear if the station existed as jointly used by CN or Grand Trunk before or after 1926.

[rcdrye]

South of Newport.  Station operated by a local short line, but serving what were then two class Is.  Most passenger equipment some shade of maroon, though green crept in later.

[Overmod]

Would stations at ports for the Fall River and other passenger ship/boat lines qualify as 'Union stations' if served by more than one company?

[daveklepper]

Overmod.  Thid ic Vermont, not Massachusetts or Rhode Island or New Hampshire!

[daveklepper]

St. Johnsberry.

The Short Line had sevweral names, but was known as the St, Johnsberry and Lake Champlain for a time.  Aside from the B&M, CN and/or Grand Trunk.

[rcdrye]

And what railroads (besides the StJ&LC) served St. Johnsbury Union Station?

[Overmod]

daveklepper

Overmod.  This is Vermont, not Massachusetts or Rhode Island or New Hampshire!

I saw Newport and went right to the wrong conclusion.

[daveklepper]

Bangor & Aroostick, anf Maine Central

[rcdrye]

B&M trains from Boston to Montreal called at St Johnsbury.  BAR never quite made it to Vermont...

[daveklepper]

 

I thoough that Wiki's map showed a Bangor & Aroostic branch to St. Johnsbury, b ut was mistaken.   Apologies.

I had mentioned the B&M earlieapr and thought you were looking for two more.

[rcdrye]

St. Johnsbury was served by Canadian Pacific and Maine Central.  The StJ&LC operated the station and switched the yard for the other railroads, a legacy of the line's beginning as part of the Portland and Ogdensburgh.  CP bought the line north of Wells River VT in 1926.  B&M and CP had various pool arrangements for freight and passenger power in both steam and diesel eras.  In the diesel era, CP used mostly Alcos built in Schenectady instead of MLWs, and also purchased three E8s (to pool with B&M's only E8) for the Allouette and Red Wing.

[daveklepper]

Pool with B&M’s only E8 and its E7 fleet.  B&M’s only E8 came as the last locomotive delivered as part of an E7 order.  The B&M used E7s and its one E8 in the pool with CP and, as well, for its own Boston – Portland service, on occasion running thru on the Maine Central to Bangor, but no further.  All other B&M passenger service was with F-units, plus the one Flying Yankee, then also Alco and GP-7 road-switchers, until the Budd RDCs arrived.  But the B&M still had some Mogulss and Pacifics on rush-hour Bston commuter runs as late as 1951 or 1952.

The Allouette and Red Wing, when not powered by a CP E8, would more likely have a B&M E7, rather than the one E8, and the E8 on occasion was used to Portland, possibly to Bangor.

The first time I rode the Allouette, it was powered by a CP Pacific and has a CP heavyweight brass-rail observation-parlor at the rear end.  But then I only rode it as far as Concord, NH.  Age 13, 1945. Around 1 July.  (Campers' special non-air-conditioned coach)

Several trips afterward, up to and including the B&M-CP Budd 2-car arrangement at the end via both White  River and Wells River Junctions.

The one time I rode overnight Boston - Montreal on the B&M-CP Red Wing, the CV New Englander was still running.  But this was a separate train only between Concord and White River Jc.  North of White River, I believe it was combined with the Montrealer-Washingtonian, and its green cars stood out against the red B&M and CP Red Wing cars between Boston and Concord.

Of course I should have known CP at St. Johnsberry. Probably was asleep when passing through several times.

[daveklepper]

I also remember my first Boston - Concord, and Concord - Boston trips, age 5, 1937, with parents.  Not the Allouette; insgtead, the typical of the period open-platform coaches, which were in use on the B&M until the Budd's came.  But I enjoyed the end windows of those cars when insisting on riding the lasr car.  But on the return, a box or refrigerator car was attached at the rear at Manchester or Nashua spoiling my fun.

We had used the Boston night-boat from and to New York with dinner on the boat.  Apparently, this was less expensive then Pullman on the Owl.  Ot maybe my parents just enjoyed a boat ride.  Most of my many NY - Concord trips were in a State-of-Maine sleeper.  But Boston = concord om the Allouette.  

Do you wish to ask the next question, since my answer was not 100%?

[rcdrye]

You go ahead.

[daveklepper]

Capitol Transit in Washington, DC, and Third Avenue Transit System in Manhattan, The Bronx, and Westchester Couonty, had in common the use of both overhead wire and conduit current collection.

In addition, the cnversion of Third Avenue Transit System's eight Manhattan  streetcar lines that ran through WWII, and the final closure of Roy Chalk's Capitol Transit streetcar lines for bus replacement, also had smething in common.  What was it?

Can you suggest a  real parallwl in frieght railroading?

[Overmod]

daveklepper

Can you suggest a  real parallel in freight railroading?

If it's what I think it is, one parallel might be the Atglen & Susquehanna.

[daveklepper]

Not the answer I expected.  What was the reason for all three?

[daveklepper]

Again, who deceded TATS' Manhattan streetcars must be replaced by buses?

The decision was made  in 1941, but the conversion was delayed by WWII and began October, 1946, completed (for Manhattan conduit-only lines) June, 1947.  (In passing, from Jack May, Slaughter Huff wanted to save WWII profits to pay for the new buses, but was ousted by stockholders who wished immediate cas.  Under new management, TARS converted all lines  to bus, with the last Yonkers streetcars running in 1952, and TARS went bsankrupt because of continued need for time payments for the buses.)

Unsure about the dates for Capitol Transit, but note that thec Du Pont Circle Underpass was completed in 1948 or 1949, with its new conduit track.  Who deceded that Roy Chalk's excellently-maintained all-PCC streetcar system had to be  replaced by buses?

[rcdrye]

daveklepper

Again, who deceded TATS' Manhattan streetcars must be replaced by buses?

The most commonly heard story says it was Fiorello LaGuardia, though it's far more likely that Robert Moses was involved.

[daveklepper]

Both, yes, government, not the private industry.

And Capitol Transit?   Who?