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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 12:24 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

The train ran from CUS to Savanna and was locally known as the "City of Savanna" or the "Lone Ranger".  It replaced the prior "City of Portland/City of Denver" schedule within Illinois.

 

As you say.  Most days the crew outnumbered the passengers.  The train was an intrastate remnant of UP/MILW's pre-"City of Everywhere" combinations.  From the late 1950s on the CofP and CofD ran on the CofD's number and timetable from Chicago to Denver with the CofP continuing to Portland via the Borie cutoff.  The CofLa and CofSF were the other combo.  From time to time int othe mid 1960s all of the "City" trains would run as separate trains, though usually as multiple sections.  The last "City" trains ran with the City of LA's numbers 103 and 104.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, May 15, 2021 12:27 PM

CSS owes for this one, too.  Just sayin'

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, May 15, 2021 4:33 PM

I'll throw one out...  This city, known in later years for PCCs, had several double deckers in the early years, both motors and trailers.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, May 16, 2021 9:06 AM

There were several systems that had early double-deckers and then went to PCCs, so this one hinges on the existence of trailers.

As a non-trolley guy I'll toss back Pittsburgh Railways; they certainly ran double-deckers long enough to have flirted with unpowered ones.

I was surprised to find an American system that ran FOUR-WHEEL double-deck equipment.  Who knows where and when?

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, May 17, 2021 6:06 AM

Pittsburgh had a surprising number of double-deck cars, including trailers, all of which were double-trucked.  Except for special events (baseball games and the like) the cars were rarely used anywhere near capacity.  Some of them were cut down to single level, but many were retired early and just scrapped.

 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, May 24, 2021 4:34 AM

Show me a 40' passenger car that seats 106... entirely inside.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, May 24, 2021 9:50 AM

And before you ask: no straphangers, no standees, no one on the outside of the car, and no second or multiple deck.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, May 25, 2021 5:38 AM

Entirely inside, no, because the car you describing can only be an open-bench car, seating six across on 16 benches, and the NYNH&H had some cars of that type for an early 600V DC branch-line electrification, possibly in Rhode Island.

105 passengers, plus the operator-motorman., seated on a front bench with passengers, or just stanidng with the 106tth passenger behind himots.  And lots  of Connecticiut Co. streetcars, other systems as well.

Once you intriduce an interior aisle, insufficient room for 105 0r 106 passengers.

Open-bench cars had running boards outsude for use by the cnductor, with passengers using them as stepa directly to-and-from seats.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, May 25, 2021 6:16 AM

ConnCo was legendary for the use of open cars to handle Yale Bowl crowds for football games.  I have seen photos of 15-bench opens with every seat filled, someone on most laps, assorted hangers-on on the running boards and a few nut cases on the roof.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, May 25, 2021 9:46 AM

I said 'passenger car', not trolley.  The cars I'm thinking of are locomotive-hauled.

Here's a hint: Mr. Klepper isn't right about the seating arrangement.  And another hint: that turns out to be important.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, May 26, 2021 6:00 AM

But Utah's Salt Air had trailer open-banch cars meeting the description.  They were hauled by closed motor cars until dieselization, then by locomotives.

The UK and Isle-of-Man have narrow-gauge 40-foot (approx.) slam-door compartment cars, without aisles, again outside running boards  for steps and for use by the conductor (guard).  All are pulled by steam.  France has one such operation, but most runs are by petroleum rail-buses.

Each compartment has two bench-seats facing each other, six or seven seated on each bench, part of one compartment may be usurped by a conductor/guard's position.

There may be such an operation in the USA.   Where?

Jack May photo, Isle of Man:

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, May 26, 2021 8:15 AM

All the seats face the same way.  Hint: this is important to why the capacity can be so high...

As a hint that will give it away: The number of passengers is exact in the car description I read.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, May 26, 2021 11:16 AM

106 does not permit dividing into X rows with y seats.

105 can mean 15 rows of seven seats each, possible without a center aisle.  Add a cobuctor and you have 106. Or possibly there are 16 rows, and some space is  usurped by a stove.

This might be the Durango and Silverton Silver Vista with individual doors for each row.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, May 26, 2021 12:55 PM

As another hint: at least one other railroad had a train of this kind of car, and regularly ran it in comparable service.  We had a thread involving it a couple of years ago.  But I don't have a specific capacity number for their version of the car...

I note an interesting comment made about their 'comparable' car construction and use that provides insight about the numbers -- the seating is not part of their car design, but adapted to it.

Incidentally, there was a discussion about what would be used to replace these cars in postwar service.  Supposedly that would involve wide-window parlor cars, brought in from logical traffic-generating areas:  a much more comfortable -- and far less useful and suitable -- alternative...

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 27, 2021 3:29 AM

I think it is an instruction car or prison car, again 13 rows of seven each, possibly 11 rows of 9 each (very uncomfortable), standard- or broad-gaoge.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 27, 2021 6:34 AM

No -- these were cars people clamored to get into, and then clamored while riding.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 27, 2021 9:14 AM

Then sightseeing or theater or Bingo or auction. I think auction, accounting for the "clamoring" aftyer seating. And what about my seatimg arrangements?

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 27, 2021 9:47 AM

daveklepper
Then sightseeing or theater or Bingo or auction.

None of the above, really... as you'll agree when you figure out the answer.  Were there ever auctions held from railroad cars?

The clamoring was an integral part of what the cars were used for.  Which was a very specific thing.  Not including conductors taking up tickets, or anything involving ticket sales at intervening stations. 

And what about my seating arrangements?
Colder and colder, as it were.  

The railroad that ran the particular cars referred to had a common destination of sorts with the 'other railroad' I mentioned, for a principal purpose that the 'other railroad' ran their version of the cars -- but to my knowledge the first railroad didn't use their special cars for that purpose.  That other railroad's cars were famous because the seating arrangements had nothing to do with the original car construction.  Much along the lines of adding auto racks to flat cars not built for the purpose.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 27, 2021 3:18 PM

Rolling band, choir, and/or orchestra?

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 27, 2021 5:36 PM

Nope.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, May 28, 2021 7:50 AM

Do all rows have ithe same nomber of seats?

Or the just benches, anf if so, all the same length?

Am I correct that there is no internal aisle?

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, May 28, 2021 8:07 AM

A passenger car for small children?

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, May 28, 2021 2:54 PM

There is no aisle, either longitudinal or transverse, in the picture I saw.  Entry is between pipe rails at the center of only one side of the car.

Children are unlikely to be a major part of the 'clientele'.  People watching their children would be much more likely...

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, May 28, 2021 2:59 PM

Here I thought this was a throwaway question and it would be a feeding frenzy between rcdrye and Mr. Klepper to see who would answer first.  I will drop you all a hint if no one figures this out.

At this point I'd settle for either railroad, if you mention the circumstances where they serve the same place differently.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, May 29, 2021 1:01 PM

One last hint:

All the seats appear to be the same length.  They all face in the same direction.  This was very important for their intended purpose.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, May 29, 2021 1:37 PM

I think you're referring to the cars used for the Harvard Yale regatta trains.  The cars (basically 40 foot Central Vermont flat cars) had tiered benches so observers could watch the races.  There's a postcard view of the cars on this page:

https://mcguirelibrary1998.omeka.net/exhibits/show/postcards/intro/harvard-yale-regatta 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, May 29, 2021 2:19 PM

That's the correct answer, although the two specific references were to New Haven's and New York Central's versions respectively (New Haven's were seen as flatcars in the 17500 series, with a good picture showing the modifications in Swanberg & Staufer's New Haven Power -- where the specific number of seats was given.

The New York Central cars were characterized as having commercial bleacher sections applied to flatcars.  The New Haven cars appear to have a similar approach but with more extensive detail design of the additions, including railings, safety screening, and roofs.

It would be interesting to find documentation whether the New Haven did or did not bring these cars to Poughkeepsie, which is the location both railroads brought an extensive 'clientele' to watch crew races.  The NYC ran trains up and down the river in the usual way -- New Haven had trains up on the Poughkeepsie Bridge to observe the finish line...

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, May 29, 2021 6:22 PM

Central Vermont and New Haven ran down opposite sides of the Thames above New London, so it makes sense for both of them to have had such cars.  I was not aware that New York Central also had them.  It's hard to imagine anyone trying the same setup today.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 30, 2021 7:39 AM

In my time as a NYNH&H passenger, and somewhat involved with the MIT crew team, I was aware that the New Haven continued to run these special trains.  But regular coaches were used, post WWII, mostly "america  Flyers,  300-series/

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 30, 2021 7:43 AM

And  the special cars, 15 rows, seven acress, or 21 rows, five across?

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