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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, July 16, 2021 10:03 AM

daveklepper
Both, yes, government, not the private industry. And Capitol Transit?   Who?

Congress.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, July 16, 2021 11:01 AM

rcdrye
 
daveklepper
And Capitol Transit?   Who?

Congress.

PL 84-757, DC Transit, Inc. Franchise Act.  Ought to be in the Federal Register in mid-1956.  Quoted in this, which may have quite a bit of incidental detail:

https://books.google.com/books?id=lY5KAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA222&lpg=PA222&dq=public+law+84-757&source=bl&ots=8k-BuptrdI&sig=ACfU3U2FtFf04jl6BfQAOcZHQQpfA1d92A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjxMq2-ufxAhVgVTABHQgfBlYQ6AEwDHoECCwQAg#v=onepage&q=public%20law%2084-757&f=false

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, July 18, 2021 9:28 AM

Again, government, not the tax-paying private enterprise itself.  Bpth are evidences of Government interference in the transportation business, long before subsidies were necessary.

Isn't  there a warning sign there?

In any case, rc of course has the next question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, July 19, 2021 10:00 AM

First time I got it with a one word answer...

Up until the 1920s the Boston and Maine had three routes from Massachusetts to Maine.  The Eastern and Western Routes remained until the 1940s (and remain as names in "T" territory)  Name the third route, whose name always included the middle city, and which became known as the "ghost division" as its seniority roster was merged with the rest of the B&M.  A short piece of it remains as an important part of the current Pan Am Railway.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 19, 2021 11:18 AM

The Western route still exists as the main line used by Amtrak's Downeaster service, and MBTA commuter servicr as far as Haverhill.

The Eastern has been cut back to Newberryport, with MBTA sevice, including a branch to Cloucester.

The Fitchberg Division is what you are looking for, reaching Maine, via a connection from Ayer, still a major freigiht route, and once used by the State-of-Maine Express and the East Wind.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, July 19, 2021 1:32 PM

The Fitchburg Division crossed the line I'm looking for.  Fitchburg runs east-west, this one ran southwest-northeast.

The East wind, State of Maine and Bar Harbor all used the piece of this route that still remains, but used the Stony Brook and Western main line to head for Portland.  Remember, I'm looking for the entire name.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 6:08 AM

Since the Eastern Railroad became the Eastern Division, the Worcesta(Sp?), Nashua and Portland may be the name of the division you are requesting.  But, in any case, that is precisely the track you are looking for, even if the division name is different.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 10:30 AM

Worcester, like part of the sauce, right?

With the section between Ayer and the namesake city being the 'Worcester Main' that is most of what survives?

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 2:26 PM

Possdibly some more survives.  In any case, I think the name has always been pronounced "Wooster."

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 5:28 PM

daveklepper
I think the name has always been pronounced "Wooster."

Almost always...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oJdN7pLBrio

0:40

(I was going to type it but... I didn't renember it in its full splendor.)

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 6:48 PM

Except for the Worcester Main Line (key to the proposed CSX acquisition of Pan Am) very little of the WN&P survives.  The bulk of its route in New Hampshire is now state route 125.  There were some short branches in service until the 1990s.  There are some local pronunciations of Worcester (Wurster, Woostah) as well as the more common Wooster.  The WooSox are the local Red Sox affiliate, formerly in Pawtucket RI as the PawSox.  The WN&P's status as the Ghost Division was an early admission from the railroad unions that mergers, acquisitions and abandonments have to be handled realistically.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:27 PM

Don Ib get to ask the next question?

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, July 21, 2021 6:13 AM

Yes you do.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, July 22, 2021 4:41 AM

1.  The post-WWII streamliners that St. Louis Car Company built for the Illinoois Terninbal Railroaf were not as suvvessful as the pre-WWII Electroliners (one at Illinis Eailroad Museum in Union, Illinois, I believe operational and restored as a Morth Shore Elecroliner, and one at a Pennsylvania musuem and still a Philadelphia and Western/Red Arrow Libertyliner).  What was the major defect?

2.  These were not the very USA interuban cars built.  What were?

Please do the extra, and give as much information and history as you can.  Thanks.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, July 22, 2021 7:35 AM

All of the interurban streamliners (CNS&M,  IT, and PSTCo) were built by St. Louis Car.  The last "interurban" cars were the the 14 built in 1949 for Philadelphia Suburban Transportation (Red Arrow Lines) with double-ended PCC bodies, but non-PCC trucks and motors. IT's PCCs for Granite City service were delivered in 1947 and 1948. Not streamlined but very modern were CA&E's 1945 451-460 series.

IT and StLCC did not take into account that IT still had some very sharp curves, both vertical and horizontal, on its lines.  The streamlined trains had to be separated into single cars to loop in St. Louis.  Only one trip was made into Peoria over the street trackage, where both grade change and curve issues were found.  All revenue trips ended in East Peoria with a shuttle car handling the trip to IT's downtown station.  IT soon pulled out of Peoria altogether, using the East Peoria station until the end of IT passenger service.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, July 22, 2021 8:20 AM

100 percent.   But I don't consider either the Red Arrow or the IT cars as interurban cars, because both were built for suburban service.   This is a matter of opinion, not fact.

But you did mention the CA&E cars, which were the ones I indeed had in mind.  Look forward to your question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, July 22, 2021 5:28 PM

In the same postwar era, one interurban sold several wooden cars to another, making these the last wooden interurbans sold for continued service.  Name both railroads.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, July 23, 2021 8:35 AM

Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee and Chicago Aurora and Elgine.

Not sure, can look it up Sunday evening, but not until then.

I think CA&E was the buyer, and CNS&M the seller, but uncertain.

 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, July 24, 2021 7:32 AM

Correct. CA&E leased the "North Shore woods" during WWII.  Though similar to CA&E's wood cars, they didn't run well in trains with them, so they were kept together, usually in local or shuttle service.  In 1946, CA&E returned the cars to the North Shore, and then bought them at a near-scrap price.  Most if not all of them were taken out of service after September 1953 when direct service to the Loop ended.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, July 24, 2021 10:10 AM

1953 was probably the first time that CA&E actually had a surplus of equipment.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, July 24, 2021 3:54 PM

Three large USA transit systems, both operating buses, as well as electric rail vehicles, have a feature regarding their rail systems that is common to these three, that the other transit systems definitely do not have.  It is not a positive feature fr any rail operation, electric, steam, diesel, or whatever, and in one of the systems can be considerred an impedement to  improved service.

Outside the USA, there are many systems with this characteristic, possibly between 50 and 100.   And there were many more in the USA at one time.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 28, 2021 7:39 AM

Giveawy hint:

A characteristic not limited to transit systems.  There were a number of USA Class-1s with this characterisitic, with one lasting through WWII and beyond.  As far as I know, none now.

One interurban line had this characterisric, even conecring its own lines aside from the need to use other companies facilities for city access.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, August 3, 2021 5:07 AM

I thpught the hint of only one Class I with this characteristic through WWII and after, and that the  characteristic prevents thru service, would at least give away the characteristic.

So, another hint.  The Class I wast the last USA Class I to use steam regularly; they certainly used lots of  diesels, the steam hauled passengers, and the Class I never replaced them.

If you know two-out-of-the-three USA  transit systems that have this charecteristic, I'll accept you as the winner.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, August 6, 2021 4:17 AM

The passenger service that was hauled by steam was (and is) isolated.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, August 14, 2021 2:21 PM

Two metfropolitan areas with transir systems having this characteristic are in the same USa eState.  The third is far away and has more forms of public transportation than any other USA or North American city, probably more than any in the World.  And it will always have this characteristic.  A fourth city, not terribly far from one of the two in the same state, could be said to have this characteristic, but only if you include a museum operation.

And one Canadian city has this characteristic.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 16, 2021 7:54 AM

Do RC or Overmod bother to read this?   The answers should be obvious by now.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, August 16, 2021 2:42 PM

It is, regrettably, not obvious to me.  And that's including the hint about all the different kinds of transportation.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 16, 2021 10:43 PM

OK, if it is truly not obvious, with all the hints, herewith all the answers.:

A hint was that only one Class I Railroad had this characyrtistic after WWII, that it was the last in the USA  to use steam , and steam was used to haul passengers isolated from the rest of ots system,  The D&RGW used steam on the isolated Durango - Silverton operation until that line was sold to Bradshaw, and only then did D&RGW become all-diesel.  And it was the only Class I to have more than one gauge after WWII.

San Fransisco handles commuters with diesel buses, trolley-buses, streetcars, light-rail, heavy rapid=transit, commuter trains, cable-cars, and ferry boats.  That's more types of public transit than any other city.  It also has more than one track gauge, with cable-cars narriower, and BART wider.

Pittsburgh and Philadelpia are both in Pennsylvania.  The gauge of Pittsburgh's inclined railways, funiculars, is different from the light rail system.

Philadelphia has standard gauge for commuter rail, the Norristown line, the Broad Street Subway, and PATCo.  Wide gauge for Market Street rapid-trasnsit, streetcars using the center-city subway, and the two remaining Red Arrow lines, Media and Sharon Hill.

No othe USA City has currently more than one track gauge.

Comments?

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, August 17, 2021 7:29 AM

That was a bit too obvious.  I was looking for something esoteric...

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, August 17, 2021 7:30 AM

That was a bit too obvious.  I was looking for something esoteric... outthunk myself.

Ask another one.

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