To answer your question. The first UP streamliner was the articulated, rather limited capacity City of Salinas, because the first streamliners, like the Pioneer Zephyr on the Q, were really upgraded and spiffed up doodlebugs. The second UP streamliner was the City fo Denver, with greater capacity, but still basically an articulated single train with dedicated locomotive as part of the train. The same characteristic, with somewhat different styling, was used for the City of Portland. The limited capacity and lack of flexibility of these mid-1930's trains did not severly hinder their use in their intended markets. But the City of Los Angeles and City fo San Francisco were different. The markets were larger, greater capacity was needed, plus flexibility, plus the need to add and drop cars (through service to and from Kansas City). and their inauguration had to await the development of EMD's (EMC at the time) E-series locomotives which were not integral with their trains, and also the development of lightweight non-articulated sleeping cars, coaches, diners, etc.
Al, The UP postwar daily City streamlined trains when they first entered service used an assortment of streamlined and not so streamlined cars including some heavyweights painted to match. Once the first postwar new equipment began arriving from the manufacturers it did not take long for the trains to be truly streamlined. Large RRs like the UP purchased passenger cars from several manufacturers such as Pullman Standard, American Car & Foundry, Budd and St. Louis Car. The Budd cars purchased by the UP were stainless steel under the yellow grey and red paint to match the cars from the other manufacturers. Hope that answers your questions Al.
Al - in - Stockton
FROM PRIOR POST:
Re: To keep things going why did th UP streamline the daily CITY OF PORTLAND
before the CITY OF LOS ANGELES or CITY OF SAN FRANCICO following WW II?
********
-- I think because of competitive reasons - the Empire Builder
was in line to receive streamlined equipment.
That's a great reason and I think we should see if it was indeed a reason or a contributing factor (that is, one of several good reasons that were used to assign the newer equipment to the Portland first. .
Another reason I can think of is pure speculation, but is it possible that the postwar passenger car company(ies) the UP contracted with couldn't at first provide enough passenger rolling stock for all three . . . and possibly early on not for the first to, if they had to use more cars than City of Portland.
Hopefully in UP's case "Streamlined" does not have to mean "fluted stainless steel exterior," but can also mean along the lines of "A+B diesel-electric locomotive(s) followed by new postwar passenger equipment under like livery." Probably at one point UPwith its big 1950s fleet had a few corrugated stainless coaches or sleepers, for run-throughs perhaps, but I always think of their own passenger cars, like the locomotives, decked out in [something] Yellow and Armour Gray.
Can't speak to the 1955 and after period; it's entirely possible that the Domeliners came clad in corrugated, little or none of which required adherence to livery. (I would think they wouldn't mix smooth and fluted cars, but I just don't know.
I do agree that slab-sides (I'm avoiding the term "lightweight" because that is so relative to time and technology) can make up a streamliner; just as I also consider the 20th Century Limited at the time NORTH BY NORTHWEST was made (1959) to be a streamliner -- it may also have to do with level of service as well as new equipment specifically bought for a train.
Naturally I am not trying to exclude UP from consideration because that would defeat the thread's purpose. I just want a heads-up on what "streamlined" meant in Postwar UP context. - al
passengerfanZephyrOverland al-in-chgo ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935. Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s. Just to keep things going why did the UP streamline daily City of Portland first before City of Los Angeles or City of San Francisco following WW II ? al - in - Stockton That's one.... The Portland Rose was the main Chicago-Portland train before the City of Portland was introduced. There are two more trains that existed before the Portland Rose. To keep things going why did th UP streamline the daily CITY OF PORTLAND before the CITY OF LOS ANGELES or CITY OF SAN FRANCICO following WW II?
ZephyrOverland al-in-chgo ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935. Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s. Just to keep things going why did the UP streamline daily City of Portland first before City of Los Angeles or City of San Francisco following WW II ? al - in - Stockton That's one.... The Portland Rose was the main Chicago-Portland train before the City of Portland was introduced. There are two more trains that existed before the Portland Rose.
al-in-chgo ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935. Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s.
ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935.
Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935.
Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s.
al - in - Stockton
That's one....
The Portland Rose was the main Chicago-Portland train before the City of Portland was introduced. There are two more trains that existed before the Portland Rose.
I think because of competitive reasons - the Empire Builder was in line to receive streamlined equipment.
I believe my question is still out there - I'm still looking for two feature Overland Route Chicago-Portland trains that existed before the City of Portland. The Portland Rose was already mentioned. Ill give this question another day.
ZephyrOverland al-in-chgo ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935. Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s. Just to keep things going why did the UP streamline daily City of Prtland first before City of Los Angeles or City of San Francisco following WW II ? al - in - Stockton That's one.... The Portland Rose was the main Chicago-Portland train before the City of Portland was introduced. There are two more trains that existed before the Portland Rose.
al-in-chgoZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935. Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s.
ZephyrOverland It's been quiet here for over a week. I guess KCSfan hasn't been around. So, to restart this thread I'll ask another question. Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935.
It's been quiet here for over a week. I guess KCSfan hasn't been around. So, to restart this thread I'll ask another question.
ZephyrOverlandMy my, its been quiet here the last couple of days. I'll give this through the weekend and if there are no more responses, I'll reveal the answers that I have on Monday.
My my, its been quiet here the last couple of days. I'll give this through the weekend and if there are no more responses, I'll reveal the answers that I have on Monday.
Maybe this question was a bit too esoteric. Its a fine line between labeling a train service as new and actually using "New" in the train name and using that term in passenger train schedules and consist listings. The following is what I had come up with and all of them utilized the term "New" with the train name, again in consist listings and schedules.
New Alton Limited - C&A - Chicago-St. Louis - ca. 1926New Black Hawk - CBQ - Chicago-Minniapolis - ca. 1930New Chicago Limited - CNW - Chicago-Minniapolis - ca. 1909New Crescent - PRR/SR/WoA/AWP/LN - New York-New Orleans - ca. 1950New Denver Zephyr - CBQ/DRGW - Chicago-Denver-Colorado Springs - ca. 1957New Dixieland - CEI/LN/NCStL/ACL/FEC - Chicago-Miami - ca. 1957New Empire Builder - CBQ/GN/SPS - Chicago-Seattle/Portland - ca. 1948New Georgian - CEI/LN/NCStL - Chicago/St. Louis-Atlanta - ca. 1948New Great Western Limited - CGW - Chicago-Minniapolis - ca. 1900New Overland Limited - CNW/UP/SP - Chicago-San Francisco - ca. 1916New Royal Palm - NYC/SR/FEC - Detroit-Miami - ca. 1949New Southland - LN/CoG/ACL - Cincinnati-St. Petersburg
Mark, since you submitted one of the correct answers, why don't you ask the next question.
Myron
This is not the only Forum that has been quiet.
Maybe most, in the northern hemisphere, are huddled around their fires or pot bellied stoves.
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
DeggestyZephyrOverlandThe Southern named its winter season only Cincy - Florida streamliner the New Royal Palm to distinguish it from the year round Royal Palm. But, the New Royal Palm ran under that name for several winter seasons, and the Royal Palm was still operated between Cincinnati and Jacksonville. It was not a one season train, nor did it replace the Royal Palm. Johnny
ZephyrOverlandThe Southern named its winter season only Cincy - Florida streamliner the New Royal Palm to distinguish it from the year round Royal Palm.
But, the New Royal Palm ran under that name for several winter seasons, and the Royal Palm was still operated between Cincinnati and Jacksonville. It was not a one season train, nor did it replace the Royal Palm.
Johnny
Yes that's true and I am still going to accept the New Royal Palm because the propose of "New" in New Royal Palm was to differentiate it from the regular Royal Palm and I believe the New Royal Palm did not last as long as the regular Royal Palm.
In my research into passenger train names, I have come across 11 trains which had the term "New" appended temporarily to the name in consist listings and schedules. One of the names I uncovered is:
New Chicago Limited - CNW - Minneapolis-Chicago - late 1909.
There are a few from the heavyweight era, but the balance resided in the lightweight era.
KCSfanThe Southern named its winter season only Cincy - Florida streamliner the New Royal Palm to distinguish it from the year round Royal Palm. Mark
The Southern named its winter season only Cincy - Florida streamliner the New Royal Palm to distinguish it from the year round Royal Palm.
Mark
That's one.
Texas Zepher The Northern Pacific used "New North Coast Limited" in 1930. The ones below are all from advertising and I don't know if they made it into the schedules or not. 1949 had "The New Broadway Limited"on the Pennsy1938 had "The New 20th Century Limited" on the NYC.1937 the UP had "the New Streamliner" City of San Fransisco and the "New City of Los Angeles" The SP's "new Shasta Daylight" Do not know the date 1953?Here is the "New Santa Fe Super Chief" from 1951.
The Northern Pacific used "New North Coast Limited" in 1930.
The ones below are all from advertising and I don't know if they made it into the schedules or not.
1949 had "The New Broadway Limited"on the Pennsy
1938 had "The New 20th Century Limited" on the NYC.
1937 the UP had "the New Streamliner" City of San Fransisco and the "New City of Los Angeles"
The SP's "new Shasta Daylight" Do not know the date 1953?
Here is the "New Santa Fe Super Chief" from 1951.
How was the New North Coast Limited used? Was that name used in the schedules and consist listings?
As for the other examples, I have not seen any of them used in Official Guide listings beyond advertising.
A Happy New Year to all on this forum.
Speaking of "New", that's the subject of today's question.
In the history of passenger train naming conventions, railroads would sometimes tack on the word "New" temporarily to an existing passenger train name to highlight a major change, be it new equipment, a new schedule or a way to differentiating it from an older version of the service. Name the trains that had the word "New" added temporarily to the train name. The name had to be used in the railroads passenger train schedules and consist listings, not just in advertising. Names with the word "New" partly referencing a destination (example, New York, New Jersey, New London) do not count.
KCSfan I believe the Wabash was another road with two terminals on Chicago. Its Chicago - St. Louis trains used Dearborn Station. Its Chicago - Detroit trains used Union Station which was reached via trackage rights over the Pennsy from Gary, IN 25 miles to the east. The Wabash ran extras from Chicago to Notre Dame football games running the last few miles into South Bend over the NJI&I. Mark
I believe the Wabash was another road with two terminals on Chicago. Its Chicago - St. Louis trains used Dearborn Station. Its Chicago - Detroit trains used Union Station which was reached via trackage rights over the Pennsy from Gary, IN 25 miles to the east. The Wabash ran extras from Chicago to Notre Dame football games running the last few miles into South Bend over the NJI&I.
I do not know what year the Wabash dropped the service Montpelier-Chicago, but through trains, operated by the PRR west of Fort Wayne took their place. These trains were PRR, and not Wabash, into Chicago Union Station.
Happy (and better) New Year to all.
correct except that Howard Street may technically in Chicago, but it is hardly a Chicago terminal, being the border with Evanston. The third and regularly used terminal at the time, 1929-1930, was JACKSON PARK!!!! Where the North Shore shared the CRT ("L") yard and had a commisary to stock the dining cars. Most Milwaukee expresses at the time used Jackson Park and made selected stops on the South Side. Most other trains used Roosevelt Road. Some moring rush hour trains ran all the way around the loop to deliver workers directly to Wabash Avenue and Lake Street Loop addresses, lost their identity at Adams and Wabash, and proceeded to Roosevelt Road or Jackson Park as extras with white flags. I believe this sort of oepration continued to the end of service in 1963. Howard Street was the southern terminal for Waukegan and Highwood Shore Line Locals that provided something like streetcar service, often using wood equipment, some still not modified with tapered ends to operate over the "L" into Chicago. Often these were one-car trains. If no one can provide definite information on other railroads than the North Shore, the New York Central System, and the Illinois Central, yours is the next question.
daveklepperThe give away hints. This class I railroad ran a train schedules and named specifically to connect with the New York bound 20th Century Limited. And actually during the period discussed it could technicalliy and accurately be described as having three Chicago terminals.
The give away hints. This class I railroad ran a train schedules and named specifically to connect with the New York bound 20th Century Limited. And actually during the period discussed it could technicalliy and accurately be described as having three Chicago terminals.
It sounds like the North Shore Line. It's Eastern Limited from Milwaukee was timed to provide a good connection to the Century. And the three Chicago terminals could be:
- Roosevelt Road
- Adams and Wabash
- Howard Street
DO YOU ALL KNOW THE ANSWER PERFECTLY WELL AND ARE JUST PULLING MY LEG?
SOME OF THE ANSWERS WOULD INDICATE JUST THAT!!!
In the period under consideration, all C&AE trains that operated into Chicago operated only into the Well Street Temrinal and did not terminate anywhere else. The cutback you experienced in 1953 was do to the Congress Expressway construction, the abandonment of the Congress elevated structure, and the operation of the CTA trains at ground level with C&AE trinas not acommodated. CA&E quit passenger service altogether shortly afterward.
The South Shore trains that ran into Chicago used only the Randolph Street Terminal. Some service may have turned at Kensington, but I would question whether that could be considered running into Chicago.
I believe that the answer is the Chicago Aurora and Elgin which operated out of Wells Street terminal until 1955; I think. I only rode the CA&E once in November of 1953 out to Wheaton Illinois. We took the CTA to make a connection with the CA&E and did not ride from Wells Street. I did encounter the CA&E in Wheaton a number of times between 1952 and 1956,they often operated only a single coach in the 1950's
South Shore? According to the book Interurban Era Chicago,South Shore, & South Bend had a terminal where they met IC. In addition they also used IC's terminal (Randolf St) ?
Rgds IGN
This is good information if anyone knows exactly when Northwestern's Wells St. Terminal was abandoned.
I am looking for another answer, however. Note that Wells Street was another near-loop terminal, not a suburban part of Chicago. And there was any shared yard there.
Further hint. Ocassionally operated one-coach trains. Also regular ran school extras.
WAG Chicago & North Western. I remember reading somewhere that in addition to Northwestern terminal, C&NW was still using the original Wells St(?) Terminal.
PS If I get it right, I tend to have infrequent net access, whilst I follow the column I don't have the ability to post. So please feel free to continue without me. Thx IGN
Excuse me, I thought Michigan Southern must be the name of the Michigan Central line into Illinois, but apparently you are teaching it was something else. Yes, the Michigan Central used the IC Central Station except for one through train to and from NYC which used Lasall. And yes, the IC through trains used Central Station as terminal but the suburban trains, both before and after electrficaiton, used Randolph Street.
I am still looking for the name of the Class I which had some of its trains terminating in a station reasonably close to the Loop but had almost as many going through Chicago to a suburban community still withing Chicago limits. Hint: At the latter point it shared a yard.
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