My guess is four with two sold to the South Shore, the other two? I think one of the CN's many interurban subsidiaries, but which one? London and Port Stanley? Niagra St. Catherins and Toronto?
I'll continue with this theme. The IC suburban electricification included a limited freight electrification. How many locomotives were purchased for freight service and what was their disposition?
The circa 1949 article in TRAINS stated that some of the trailer cars had been used in steam service (with the Forny el-type locomotives) before electriciation. IC MU cars did have regular air brakes along with electric control airbrakes and could be used outside of electrification as regular coaches. If they don't have airhoses in the photographs, it is because they received special mu couplers and the air line was contained in the rapid-transit-type coupler. (Westinghouse, Tomlinson, Ohio Brass, all had integral air-hose connections with rubber grommets on the coupler face.) Or possibliy an adapter coupler was used, and this was in fact used when these mu cars were used behind steam in special moves. This was also true of most New York City subway cars, for example. I rode D-type subway cars (fan-trip) pulled by a South Brooklyn steeple cap freight motor, and an adapter coupler took care of the air-hose connection from the locomotive. But air hoses were typical of most mu's of the period, including the Pennsy and LIRR MP-54's, the NYC, the New Haven, the South Shore, North Shore (not sure about the Electroliners, but all other mu cars definitely and obviously not their local streetcars), CA&E (all mu cars), Lackawanna, Laural Line, Warterloo Ceder Fall and Northern, Illinois Terminal (again not sure about the post-war streamliners and definitely not the ten double-end PCC's in Granit City serice.) The IC suburban engines already had generators for head-end power and the old open platform coaches had been converted to electric lighting by use of head-end power and not axle generators. This was typical for most Chicago steam suburban operations, and the IC trailer cars obviously initially had their lighting circuits arranged to accept that head-end power. I assume the trail cars were tried out in suburban service behind steam in the later spring, summer, and early autumn when no heating was required, since I doubt the steam locomoties had sufficient head-end power for the heating grids. But maybe a few of the Forney suburban engines were equipped with larger head-end power generators. I hope this answers your question, and others with more specific information can comment. The reason most suburban operators used head-end power for lighting from the start of electric lighting is that in suburban service operation at low speed and dwell time at stations means batteries don't get charged enough by axle-driven generators.
Meanwhile, Paul, I look forward to the next question.
PS: I do believe they were used in solid trains when tried out behind steam, and I recall seing one picture of such a train. They would not have been mixed with the old wood cars, Mark, and you are corect on that point.
I too was thinking of the MU "Wickerliners" of the IC which I rode many times but I ruled them out when you said some of the trailers were used in steam service prior ro electrification. I don't see how that was possible since their couplers and draft gear were incompatible with the earlier steam drawn cars, they had no air brake hoses, and of course lacked steam heating coils.
Mark
You were the first so ask the next queston.
And the almost missing item were steps. No steps or traps except on the inner end of the trailer car. No steps on the motor car and only one pair on the trailer. All Metra Electric stations are high platform stations.
I should have figured this one out since I used to see them regularly when I caught the South Shore at 115th Street for my ride home from high school. The trains were the original equipment of the Illinois Central suburban service, electrified in 1926. As an aside, the cars were also equipped with roll signs to indicate destination.
Hint: The trains that were equipped with both diaphraghms and pantograph gates ran as married pairs, one trailer with one motor car. and atl least some of the trailers were in steam service before electrification although designed for the electrification.
Thanks! Please answer the question! Should be easy as pie. The PRR Owl-faced MP-54 mu's and and Lackawana dc classics had neigther diaphragms nor pantograph gates. All NYC subway cars have pantograph gates but no diaphragms. Prehaps I should have restricted the question to electric mu equipment.
daveklepperI visited Canadaigua several times, having helped with the design of the summer home for the Rochester Philharmonic there, "The Canandaigua Performing Arts Center" or "The Finger Lakes Performing Arts Center," (not sure which was finally chosen). In was (is?) pronounced CANNONDAYGWA
Johnny
daveklepperCan you check if there was also a summertime car to Lake Placid?
Dave, I'm sorry to be so long in respoding to your question. Looking at the maps of the NYC and PRR, I was inclined to say ,"No," for it seemed that there would be much east-west backtracking. A few minutes ago, I thought to check in Peter T. Maiken's Night Trains--and, on page 43, service Philadelphia-Lake Placid, via PRR, is mentioned. There is no discussion of the routing, but I posit that the car was interchanged at Newark, N. Y. going from Philadelphia by way of Harrisburg and Williamsport up to Newark (on PRR's Sodus Point line & NYC's main line) and thence to Utica and north on the Adirondack Divison. By 1950, the line to Sodus Point was freight only, In January of 1930, there was a motor train that connected, in Stanley, with the day train between Canandaigua and Williamsport. The interchange may have been at Rochester, though. You are vindicated.
In June, 1930, there was a through car Rochester-Washington by way of Canandaigua.
The last wood passenger cars in New York Central Passenger service were wood vestibulted cars with steel underframes used in Wst Shore Weehawken - Haverstraw commuter service to the end of WWII and a few years more, until steel equipment released by new lightweight equpment took over this service. Wood cars from the New York Ontarior and Western continued to use these tracks for a few more years afterward. The last wood rolling stock into Grand Central were the 60-foot single-door wood baggage cars of the NYNH&H, which were replaced by second had equipment in 1950.
So I will ask another question What classic railroad commuter equipment had both diaphragms and pantograph gates on the ends of all cars and also lacked (not quite completly) a feature of all other North American railroad commuter equipment of the period? Naming the commuter operaton, the railroad, is suffficient, but you can also give the reason(s).
Aw come on Al, you know I meant steel wheeled vehicles running on tracks in regular trains! But having said that, you aren't way off base. And the other question should also be easy to answer.
I visited Canadaigua several times, having helped with the design of the summer home for the Rochester Philharmonic there, "The Canandaigua Performing Arts Center" or "The Finger Lakes Performing Arts Center," (not sure which was finally chosen). In was (is?) pronounced CANNONDAYGWA. Some time after passenger service ceased. A RPO administrator or one of the architects, Sandler or Russo, would pick me up at either the airport or the Amtrak station in Rochester. Usually the latter.
A hint on the GCT question. The wood equipment was replaced after running in trains with postwar equipment and was replaced entirely by second-hand steel equipment from other railroads, much as most of the wood Boston and Maine open platform coaches were being replaced by second hand steel equipment before the massive move to RDC's. But in this case some of the postwar steel equipment was postwar (Postwar = post WWII)
A hint on the NYC wood equpment. East of Buffalo. Yes, definitely east of Buffalo.
I believe the last wooden equipment used in Grand central terminal were the baggage carts for the checked bags between the baggage room and the trains.
Al - in - Stockton
daveklepperCheck the guides of the 30's if you can. Possibly I should have said Harrisburg or Philadelphia and not Pittsburgh.
Check the guides of the 30's if you can. Possibly I should have said Harrisburg or Philadelphia and not Pittsburgh.
And when did the WP move out of the SP's Oakland Mole? To essentially load and unload like a streetcar on a street?
daveklepperI believe there was on occasion one from Lake Placid to Pittsburgh and one from Rochester to Pittsburgh
I was surprised by the lack of response, but those with Official Guides should know more than i do. In addition to the on and off NY - Chicago via C&O sleeper, I believe there was on occasion one from Lake Placid to Pittsburgh and one from Rochester to Pittsburgh. If I am incorrect then whoever gives the correction should ask the next question. Otherwise I will.
With the lack of response equal to a shout, I will give one away: NY-Chicago via the C&O. Penn Station NY to Central Station Chicago via the Big Four. Anyone know the other one I know? Amd amy others?
I presume this is because until some time during the operation of the CZ, the WP used the SP Oakland Mole ferry terminal and had to use AT&SF trackage to access the SP?
Anyone come up with answers to the NYC-PRR question? I don't claim to know all the answers, just two, and there may be more.
Fuller Road Back to the business at hand. The Golden State and the Exposition Flyer.
passengerfanJust to clear up any confusion Al in Chicago is the one with the sinus infection and Al in Stockton is the one with tax clients.
Sorry, Al. Thanks for setting me (and anyone else) straight.
Deggesty al-in-chgoI'm sorry for the delay; sinus infection. I'm sorry to hear that, Al. I wish you well and trust that you will be able to only to join in again soon, but that you will also be able to take care of your tax clients. Johnny
al-in-chgoI'm sorry for the delay; sinus infection.
I'm sorry to hear that, Al. I wish you well and trust that you will be able to only to join in again soon, but that you will also be able to take care of your tax clients.
Just to clear up any confusion Al in Chicago is the one with the sinus infection and Al in Stockton is the one with tax clients.
By the way Al in Chicago hope you get over the sinus infection soon.
Here it is only February in the central valley and my allergies are bad already. We have had a lot of rain for us and usually don't have allergy problems when it rains.
daveklepperI know some answers. But can someone also tell me: Were there any sleeping car routes that used both the AT&SF and the SP?
Dave, I know of none that used both AT&SF and SP--remember, "Santa Fé all the way," as from Chicago to the West Coast. There was MP-SFe (New Orleans to either Oakland or LA), MP-TP-SP (St. Louis-LA).
Here is one: Name all the 1948 - 1954 era sleeping car routes that used both New York Central System and Pennsylvania Railroad trains.
I know some answers. But can someone also tell me: Were there any sleeping car routes that used both the AT&SF and the SP?
Deggesty ZephyrOverland Al-in-Chgo mentioned the Portland Rose, so he gets to ask the next question. C'mon, on, Al, can you give us a question? Johnny
ZephyrOverland Al-in-Chgo mentioned the Portland Rose, so he gets to ask the next question.
C'mon, on, Al, can you give us a question?
I'm sorry for the delay; sinus infection.
Would someone else like to post a question during my infirmity? Once I'm back on my feet I wouldn't mind offering a question if another gap looms . . . but that can wait.
Thanks,
al-in-chgo
ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935.
Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935.
The Portland Rose was already mentioned. The two Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that preceeded the City of Portland and Portland Rose was the Chicago-Portland Special (or Portland-Chicago Special, as some timetables show), which existed from 1900 to the early teens. It was supplanted and eventually superseded by the Oregon-Washington Limited. Al-in-Chgo mentioned the Portland Rose, so he gets to ask the next question.
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