You are absolutely correct. They were the Chico, CA Birneys, which had to go to Sacramento for regular overhaul. And they were the last pasenger service on the SN, after Marysville-Yubaville local service was discontinued and the Sacramento local streetcar merged into the Pacific Gas and Electric streetcar system and combined with the Central Califonria Traction local streetcar, also merged, about 1944. Brackerts were temporarly attached to the truck side frames to hold the third rail shoes, with cables on each side runing up the side of the car, outside, to the trolley poles, and the cars operated on their own power over the third rail stretch between Chico and Sacramento. I did not see this in person, but it is sort of the reverse of what the original East Boston Tunnel rapid transit cars did to get to the Harvard Square (Bennet Street) Shops on the Cambridge - Dorchester Tunnel. 62 was one of about five Birneys assigned to Chico. The line was only on the SM main, with no streetcar-only routes, and the line was extended about a mile north during WWII to reach an Army or Air Force base, for both Birney passenger and trolley frieght service. The streetcars were very heavily used during WWII.
The two State of PA trolley and third rail operations were the LVT Liberty Bell over the Philadelphia and Western into the 69th Street Temrinal, mentioned, and the Laural Line between Scranton and Wilksbarre, which was third rail except for trackage within Wilksbarre itself, where all the grade crossings were, and this was trolley wire. Oh, yes, also the South Scranton freight branch, which I walked, not ride, in the snow, winter of 1949-1950.
Other trolley and third rail operations inlcude CRT/CTA Lake Street and Garfield Park (with the trolley only Mannheim branch), the conduit and trolley operatons in Washington, Frendship Heights, Cabin John, NOrth Capitol-Branchville, and Benning, the latter also used by the WB&A, and New York's short-lived Third Avenue service over the Manhattan Bridge to Brooklyn's LIRR Atlantic Avenue and Flatbush Avenue Terminal, their original lines to Yonkers cut back with the changeover unnecessary when the IRT reached Van Courtlandt Park-242 St., Willis Avenue-125th Street, and 149th Street Crosstown. Anyone think of some more? There were some other interurbans that we have not mentioned.
In anay case, IGN, the quesiton is yours to ask.
There were 332 different transit properties worldwide that operated four-wheel (single-truck) Birney Safety cars. Only one ever ran them regularly for a particular reason while equipped with third rail shoes. These cars regularly ran with their trolley poles in ordinary streetcar service but had to reach the shops via third rail trackage. They also were the last nickle fare streetcars in the world. They were also the very last passenger service of the specific interuruban line.
Whose Birney cars were they, where did they regularly run, and where were the shops that maintained them?
WAG The last nickel streetcar was the Sacramento Northern Birney in Chico, Ca. Specifically SN 62. I do not remember specificly were they were maintained(Marysville, CA I think). Also I do not remember having seen any place for third rail shoes on this car. I used to run this car at Rio Vista many many years ago.
Rgds IGN
Narig... is the only winner since he did first identify the New Haven Line of Metro North and the former NYNH&H line out of Grand Central. The old changeover point, from 1910 to just a few years ago was at the Woodlawn Junction where NYNH&H trains entered NYC Harlem Div. tracks, but now the third rail overlaps the catenary into Nt. Vernon Station so the changeover can be made on level relatively straight track.
He also did call up the reference to the Boston Blue LIne. You should have gotten this earlier, since I did write the the newest commuter equpment (the M8 cars currently being delivered to the New Haven Line of Metro North) could (but as yet have not) run to a station within walking distance of the Blue Line. And, indeed, the new M8's can run under Amtrak power, old Pennsy power, as well as Metro North's 60Hz 12,500V. So some day they probably will run to South Station just for testing. And the Aquairium Station is within easy walking distance of South Station.
The changeover point of the Boston's Blue Line was Maverick Station, the old streetcar-rapid transit across-the-platform interchange station, but now it is the Airport Station where there is a shuttle bus to all Logan terminals.
But since it took so long for you to answer, and the answer is not complete, I challange you to do the research on the ramifications of the complete answer. The reference is one of the old interurban lines that has been mentioned above but no longer runs.
narig01 daveklepper Yes, and of course the North Shore's Milwaukee Expresses and Limiteds via the Skokie Valley Route switched between trolley poles and third rail at the same poitn that Skolkie Swift did, and long ago there was a local Chicago Rapid Transit Dempster Street service that may have lasted into the CTA era, supllimenting the North SDhor's trains. And the North Shore's Shore Line route trians to Waugeghan and Highland Park did the same thing at the same spot as the CTA Evanston trains did. The Ocean Electric sugsidiary of the PRR use dtrolley poles in Altantic City and Ocean City, but third rail on track shared with first the PRR and then with PRSL freight trains. Hint for the Blue Line? The original service was a trolley tunnel. Around 1926 it was converted to a third rail rapid transit line with the smalles rapid transit cars ever used in a USA rapid transit line. The trolley wire was kept for work equpment. Not having a complete shop of its own, just a small uderground running repair and inspection shop at one end of thel line,. from the other end cars were hauled by work equpment or ran on their own power with a trainman holding a portable trolley pole against the wire while leaning our of the rear car rear train door (I saw this!) late at night to connection over former streetcar tracks to what is now the Red Line where the cars could again run under third rail power to that line's main shop. In 1952 the line was extended considerably, also involving end of streetcar service in the area where the line was extended, and then was extended further, with both extensions using catenary. Part of the first extension and all of the second is on the right of way of an electric railway that went out of business in January 1941, after having been electrified in 1929. After the electrification, one of the old 2-4-4T steam locomotives was kept to probide heat for the shop. Passenger service was with the old wood open platform coaches electrified with two motors in one truck and mu controls. Plus two former streetcar Brill semi-converable WWI era streetcars were purchased and retrucked and used for one-man night service. In WWII most of the cars went to Hawai. some to Alaska and the Yukon Territory. Is this what your looking for? http://world.nycsubway.org/us/boston/blue.html
daveklepper Yes, and of course the North Shore's Milwaukee Expresses and Limiteds via the Skokie Valley Route switched between trolley poles and third rail at the same poitn that Skolkie Swift did, and long ago there was a local Chicago Rapid Transit Dempster Street service that may have lasted into the CTA era, supllimenting the North SDhor's trains. And the North Shore's Shore Line route trians to Waugeghan and Highland Park did the same thing at the same spot as the CTA Evanston trains did. The Ocean Electric sugsidiary of the PRR use dtrolley poles in Altantic City and Ocean City, but third rail on track shared with first the PRR and then with PRSL freight trains. Hint for the Blue Line? The original service was a trolley tunnel. Around 1926 it was converted to a third rail rapid transit line with the smalles rapid transit cars ever used in a USA rapid transit line. The trolley wire was kept for work equpment. Not having a complete shop of its own, just a small uderground running repair and inspection shop at one end of thel line,. from the other end cars were hauled by work equpment or ran on their own power with a trainman holding a portable trolley pole against the wire while leaning our of the rear car rear train door (I saw this!) late at night to connection over former streetcar tracks to what is now the Red Line where the cars could again run under third rail power to that line's main shop. In 1952 the line was extended considerably, also involving end of streetcar service in the area where the line was extended, and then was extended further, with both extensions using catenary. Part of the first extension and all of the second is on the right of way of an electric railway that went out of business in January 1941, after having been electrified in 1929. After the electrification, one of the old 2-4-4T steam locomotives was kept to probide heat for the shop. Passenger service was with the old wood open platform coaches electrified with two motors in one truck and mu controls. Plus two former streetcar Brill semi-converable WWI era streetcars were purchased and retrucked and used for one-man night service. In WWII most of the cars went to Hawai. some to Alaska and the Yukon Territory.
Yes, and of course the North Shore's Milwaukee Expresses and Limiteds via the Skokie Valley Route switched between trolley poles and third rail at the same poitn that Skolkie Swift did, and long ago there was a local Chicago Rapid Transit Dempster Street service that may have lasted into the CTA era, supllimenting the North SDhor's trains. And the North Shore's Shore Line route trians to Waugeghan and Highland Park did the same thing at the same spot as the CTA Evanston trains did. The Ocean Electric sugsidiary of the PRR use dtrolley poles in Altantic City and Ocean City, but third rail on track shared with first the PRR and then with PRSL freight trains.
Hint for the Blue Line? The original service was a trolley tunnel. Around 1926 it was converted to a third rail rapid transit line with the smalles rapid transit cars ever used in a USA rapid transit line. The trolley wire was kept for work equpment. Not having a complete shop of its own, just a small uderground running repair and inspection shop at one end of thel line,. from the other end cars were hauled by work equpment or ran on their own power with a trainman holding a portable trolley pole against the wire while leaning our of the rear car rear train door (I saw this!) late at night to connection over former streetcar tracks to what is now the Red Line where the cars could again run under third rail power to that line's main shop. In 1952 the line was extended considerably, also involving end of streetcar service in the area where the line was extended, and then was extended further, with both extensions using catenary. Part of the first extension and all of the second is on the right of way of an electric railway that went out of business in January 1941, after having been electrified in 1929. After the electrification, one of the old 2-4-4T steam locomotives was kept to probide heat for the shop. Passenger service was with the old wood open platform coaches electrified with two motors in one truck and mu controls. Plus two former streetcar Brill semi-converable WWI era streetcars were purchased and retrucked and used for one-man night service. In WWII most of the cars went to Hawai. some to Alaska and the Yukon Territory.
Just a guess on the tunnel origin - extended line hint. Really a WAG:
Philadelphia - Center City - former Reading RR station and possibly connection to "Suburban" (at that time PRR) station, or {how short is short?} possibly all the way west to the WPA-era 30th St. Station, one of the reasons of its building to be (IIRC) so that PRR NY-DC's electrified line didn't have to curve or wye thru Center City. Downstairs at that very elegant station below the NEC platforms is still where you can get one of the "R" lines to the airport and a couple other "R" line, but I can't recal precisely. Line expanded to north and west toward and beyond Norristown in what is now known as SEPTA's R5 line, I think (or rather, WAG). I am also hypothesizing this because the exx-Reading's suburban-electrified-line transmission towers (not the cat works) were (and are) large towers straddling or spanning the tracks. They look a great deal like l-d electric transmission towers of the 1950s or 1960s, left leg and right leg (say) spanning the tracks, then curving gently up to more of a solid tower with crossbars and then "arms" holding power lines Where the insulators go. Structural design (not incl. wires) kind of like the Eiffel Tower in miniature, but not so phallic. That look is still very common in lots of the USA, but I've never seen its like on any electrified suburban line except the exx-Reading segments of SEPTA (not that I've seen 'em all).
One major prob. with this analysis occurs to me -- there may well be others.....SEPTA's suburban heavy-rail commuter lines use "R" plus a number; they are not color-coded that I know of. Nor are the subway and elevated lines, or the lines descended from trolleys or Interurbans. Your reference to Brill made me *** up my ears, though. ;) - al
daveklepperYes, and of course the North Shore's Milwaukee Expresses and Limiteds via the Skokie Valley Route switched between trolley poles and third rail at the same poitn that Skolkie Swift did, and long ago there was a local Chicago Rapid Transit Dempster Street service that may have lasted into the CTA era, supllimenting the North SDhor's trains. And the North Shore's Shore Line route trians to Waugeghan and Highland Park did the same thing at the same spot as the CTA Evanston trains did. The Ocean Electric sugsidiary of the PRR use dtrolley poles in Altantic City and Ocean City, but third rail on track shared with first the PRR and then with PRSL freight trains. Hint for the Blue Line? The original service was a trolley tunnel. Around 1926 it was converted to a third rail rapid transit line with the smalles rapid transit cars ever used in a USA rapid transit line. The trolley wire was kept for work equpment. Not having a complete shop of its own, just a small uderground running repair and inspection shop at one end of thel line,. from the other end cars were hauled by work equpment or ran on their own power with a trainman holding a portable trolley pole against the wire while leaning our of the rear car rear train door (I saw this!) late at night to connection over former streetcar tracks to what is now the Red Line where the cars could again run under third rail power to that line's main shop. In 1952 the line was extended considerably, also involving end of streetcar service in the area where the line was extended, and then was extended further, with both extensions using catenary. Part of the first extension and all of the second is on the right of way of an electric railway that went out of business in January 1941, after having been electrified in 1929. After the electrification, one of the old 2-4-4T steam locomotives was kept to probide heat for the shop. Passenger service was with the old wood open platform coaches electrified with two motors in one truck and mu controls. Plus two former streetcar Brill semi-converable WWI era streetcars were purchased and retrucked and used for one-man night service. In WWII most of the cars went to Hawai. some to Alaska and the Yukon Territory.
daveklepperThwe State of Pennsylvania had at least two cases well after WWII.
One of the Pennsylvania lines , Lehigh Valley Transit(?) From Allentown to Philadelphia. Changed from overhead to 3rd rail at Norristown and ran to 69th st on P&W. (all 600v DC)
Also for thought Third Av Railways in NYC ran in conduit in Manhattan and had overhead in the Bronx. Not sure where they changed
Being on the road I don't have any of my reference books, so I am doing this from memory of what I read and heard.
By the by one of Sacramento's light rail lines is a blue line. I think it was also a Sacramento Northern Line. The SN in its day had numerous stretches of 3rd rail and then went to overhead in towns with street running.
Also in Seattle(forgot the name) there was an interurban line that had both 3rd rail and overhead. In William Middleton's book Interurban Era it describes this line as actually having moved the 3rd rail in sections from one location to another.
Amongst others the Key Route used overhead east of the SF Bay Bridge but used 3rd rail on the Bridge. This was inspite of the fact that there was overhead strung up for the SP's Interuban Electric Ry, that was discontinued in 1940
The Skokie Swift started service in April 1964, the change-over point from third rail to overhead was at East Prairie Rd (Crawford Av). The cars assigned to the service were equipped with pan trolleys (not pantographs) and CTA added an airfoil to maintain an upward pressure on the overhead at speed.
The Evanston line changed over from third rail to overhead at South Blvd Station. The overhead was direct suspension and the cars were equipped with trolley poles.
narig01's message:
The commuter railroad. Metro North / Conn DOT ex New Haven. Pantograph operation @ 12.5Kv 25Hz. Then 3rd rail to Grand Central. The 3rd rail is an underrunning (rail on top, shoe presses up)
I've been waiting all week to have the time and place to throw this answer out there.
Prior Message:
daveklepper OK, now tell us which is the Blue Line rapid transit line that visually does exactly the same thing,, with of course the important difference that both the third rail and the catenary are 600V DC Also where does the New Haven Line perform the change now and where did it perform it orginally. Ditto the Blue Rapid transit line. Now Skokie Swift, the North Shore, the CA&E, the Washington Baltimore and Anapolis, and the PRR subsidiary Atlantic City - Ocean Cioty interuruband (did it twice) have been mentioned. Give as much data as you might know about them, and any other operation, and there are many, that have not been mentnioned and that have existed in the past. For example, the steam railroads that are now the southern portions of the B, D, F, and N subway lines in NY were origibnally on the surface and were originally electrified with overhead trolley wire, often still used by some steam trains, and sometimes with steam, streetcars, and mu elevated trains on the same tracks! (Incidentally, yes South Brooklyn, Fl;atbush, Kings Park, people still say "take the train, not the elevated, not the subway. Friends visiting Brooklyin have reported that fact.) So when the el trains came off the Fulton Street or Fifth Avenue elevated structiure, at some point they changed from third rail to overhead wire. Thwe State of Pennsylvania had at least two cases well after WWII. Lots of other cases, so let's contribute to a master list.
OK, now tell us which is the Blue Line rapid transit line that visually does exactly the same thing,, with of course the important difference that both the third rail and the catenary are 600V DC
Also where does the New Haven Line perform the change now and where did it perform it orginally.
Ditto the Blue Rapid transit line.
Now Skokie Swift, the North Shore, the CA&E, the Washington Baltimore and Anapolis, and the PRR subsidiary Atlantic City - Ocean Cioty interuruband (did it twice) have been mentioned. Give as much data as you might know about them, and any other operation, and there are many, that have not been mentnioned and that have existed in the past.
For example, the steam railroads that are now the southern portions of the B, D, F, and N subway lines in NY were origibnally on the surface and were originally electrified with overhead trolley wire, often still used by some steam trains, and sometimes with steam, streetcars, and mu elevated trains on the same tracks! (Incidentally, yes South Brooklyn, Fl;atbush, Kings Park, people still say "take the train, not the elevated, not the subway. Friends visiting Brooklyin have reported that fact.) So when the el trains came off the Fulton Street or Fifth Avenue elevated structiure, at some point they changed from third rail to overhead wire.
Thwe State of Pennsylvania had at least two cases well after WWII.
Lots of other cases, so let's contribute to a master list.
Awwwn, maaan, Al whined. We're so close! Can't you give us a hint about this blue line? Is it possibly in Canada not USA? Looking at the bimodal power collection, was there ever an era during which one portion was operated by a pvt rwy or interurban company while at the same time the other was under municipal or other gov't ownership? Did the two lines have a terminal point in common whereby the traveler / commuter could walk from the end of one line to the beginning of the other? And at some point in the past was it possible (or necessary) for the traveler / commuter to pay two fares? Does this metro area have more than, say, three genuine RT lines? How far back is the oldest (passenger-carrying) route that's part of the line. Is custom equipment necessary, and if so is it "shopped" (in house) or "shipped" (sent to remanufacturer)?
I think any such info you'd be willing to share might nudge us to a better answer. I am dying to research this topic (it isn't hard finding subway maps or RT maps around the world, these days), but I won't.
I can add a little extra background about the Skokie Swift (Yellow Line, though that term is not used as often as "the Swift"). We already know that it runs from the Evanston/Chicago border at Howard Street. It runs non-stop from there to its terminus on Dempster St. in Skokie about 1/2 mile east of the Edens Expy (I-94). It is the last vestige of the old Skokie Valley route of the Chicago North Shore, and as I mentioned, the power came from shoe from Howard to west of McCormick Road in Skokie, where it would "land" at ground level adjacent to the CTA shops, where it switched to pantograph on the fly. That lasted up to about two years ago; and it is all third-rail now.
History: The infrastructure sat unused from 1963 to 1970, when the CTA got ahold of the land, fixed up the infrastructure, put in paid parking at the Skokie end, and christened the service the "Skokie Swift." Then as now, a free across-the-platform transfer was made at the Howard Street station, to what are now called the Purple and Red Lines and to the rush-hour Evanston Express (I'm not sure if it has its very own color). The Swift was very popular though mostly with commuters. In fact, for a long period it didn't run on Saturdays (except possibly during the Taste of Chicago fest).
I'll be lurking around this topic . . . dying to learn more! - al
Al, you know the answer. YOu mind is just blocking on it. First of all, what city has a Blue LIne heavy rapid transit line. What power does it use? Then go through all the commuter operations in the USA and tell us visually, excerpt for such minor details as to what type of pantograph or is a trolleiy pole or is it bow collector, etc, or where the third rail if any may be located, etc, gor through every commuter eperation that you can think of on a specific line basis. The two services, the rapid transit line and the commuter line are both very well known. Further hint: The rapid transit line obviusly just used mu cars, but the railroad commuter line has used in its history both locomotives and mu cars, and for most of its history both types at once.
KCSfan Al, One correction is in order. The North Shore cars drew their power from the overhead by means of trolley poles not pantographs. Mark
Al,
One correction is in order. The North Shore cars drew their power from the overhead by means of trolley poles not pantographs.
Mark
I stand corrected . . . but I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop. - al
daveklepper So, go ahead and answer the question. As thoroughly and completely as you can.
So, go ahead and answer the question. As thoroughly and completely as you can.
Thanks for the encouragement. What I put down is pretty much everything I know, so I'll be satisfied with .5 of an answer and hope that someone soon comes in and completes it -- then it's their prize. I am considering the Swift the last vestige of the old Chicago North Shore so any shoe (L) vs. pantograph (interurban) mixed-mode running, like the Electroliners from Chgo to Milw up to 1963, would not count as a new location or system for me. But sure, if that's what you had in mind I won't mind taking it.
I can think of one example in which diesel (cab) HEP hauls commuter trains over the same lines as the electrified runs under catenary: that's NICTD (former CSS&SB), which resorts to the Metra style cabs (not sure if they're push pull or not, but it would make sense) for some additional rush hour service, primarily Gary to "Millenium" (former IC Electric) station in downtown Chicago. Also when the line's cat comes down, which given high winter's tendency to snow/ice in NW Indiana happens more than "freak" frequency, skeds are truncated and the diesels have to do as much work as possible. That would count as a bimodal power on the same line, but as I believe your question had to do with different ways the electricity gets to the motors my remark doesn't apply. But it is interesting, esp now that NICTD has gone to bilev gallery-style coaches like pretty much of all Metra. NICTD was the last holdout of single-level cars as far as I know, with possibly one of the old privately owned "club" cars the very rare exception. Interesting, but boring too, since any (non-Amtrak) commuter runs involve bilev. gallery coaches and the only main difference in transport is whether the energy comes from wires or diesel-electric cab or locomotive HEP.
I've racked my brain for bimodal power distribution along the style of the Skokie Swift and can't think of anything in N. America that I'm sure fits. I have a hunch it's somewhere in NY/NJ metro but that's just a hunch born of process-of-elimination. As for SEPTA, those lines stay on wires, even the underground streetcars and the "R" lines that run under the train station (IIRC). PATCO is shoe all the way IIRD. Somebody prove me wrong!
Don't get me wrong, I love wires too! - al
daveklepper More hints necesary for this chacteristic? The South Shore was the one Insull interurban that DID NOT have this characteristic. Neither did Chicago Suface Lines or the IC.
More hints necesary for this chacteristic? The South Shore was the one Insull interurban that DID NOT have this characteristic. Neither did Chicago Suface Lines or the IC.
Does it have something to do with mode of receipt of electrical power?
Until about three years ago, the Skokie Swift (which was the first leg of the North Shore's Skokie Valley Route), ran from Howard St. on the Evanston border to Dempster St. in Skokie. Up to about halfway on its (westward) run, near the shops, where the tracks come down to ground level (everything prior is either elevated or in a culvert), a key change took place. Heading west, the operator would obey the "Pan Up" sign and raise the pantograph to catenary wire, which came into play just after the third-rail came to an end. Mostly this was done on the fly and the interval of switching modes from shoe to pantograph (or vice-versa coming east from Skokie to Evanston) involved at most a second or two of darkness.
I've had the privilege of seeing the "pan" on an opposite-heading train go up or down. Now, the wires have been decomissioned and trains run on "shoe" the entire Skokie Swift route. CTA had to add extra safety gates to protect pedestrians at level crossings (which are numerous), but AFAIK no one has been harmed since the switchover. Now that there are no overhead wires to freeze, get brittle or bogged down and snap during heavy snows or ice storms, service during inclement weather is more reliable. - al
Need another hint? Visually, the Washington Baltimore and Annapolis did the same thing visually (again with technical differences), but not the Baaltimore and Annapolis successor, and so did the Shore Line Electric, the PRR subsidiary interurban between Atlantic City and Ocean City, New Jersey (which shared tracks in Atlantic City with the local streetcar line, also once PRR owned). Lots of other examples in the old days.
But there isn't any rapid transit line that duplicates the power change you are discussing. Amtrak does it several times between NY and Boston.
Again, from the above it is obvious. What separates the Blue Line from all other rapid transit lines in North America? And which commuter line does exactly the same thing visualy, although with technical differences? The Blue line only started this practice in November 1952. Berfore then it didn't need to do so in regular passenger service, although it did do something similar at the other end of the line for shop moves for very major overhaul and repair, which became unnecessary after November 1952.
I know about 18 different lines that did the same thing, visually, during the 1930's, with 16 now gone, and other readers might name more. These are individual lines. In one case four belonged to one system, and two to another.
And today you have NJT's power change at Kearney for Mid Town Direct service from the former DL&W main to the PRR Corridor and again at Matawan on the former NY&LB now NJCoast line.
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Hasn't anyone ridden the Blue Line? There is also a Red Line and and Orange Line. The Blue Line cars could run on the Orange Line, and also, but not in passenger service, on the Red Line. The Green is somewhat different and not really compatable and consists actually of several operating routs and several abandoned. The Purple is very different and may have as many as seventeen services. And the Silver in controversial and very incompatible indeed.
Maybe I am too vague on the question. Both the single rapid transit line, no other like it currently in the USA or Canada, although there were several others at one time, and the one commuter line, same thing may be said, have one characteristic in common in that an important change occurs during each trip. And to an observer, the change is the same. However, there is a technical difference. And there were streetcar and interurban lines that featured the same kind of change.
daveklepper The South Shore changed technology during its history, moving from AC to DC IN TIME, BUT NOT AT A LOCATION. Similarly, the IC Suburban went from steam to electric, a change in time but not location. And both are commuter railroads. Regarding Al's question. I could say the commuter railroad and the particular rapid transit line are in different geographical locations. Except for this: It would be possible to actually operate the latest commuter equpment of the commuter line to a station within easy walking distance of a station on the rapid transit line, or one could take the local transit system, using two heavy rail rapid transit lines, to make the connection, or use a local bus, or use heavy rail and light rail. But none of the current and new commuter equipment has made that trip. Maybe someday it will, on a fan trip or for testing if similar commuter equipment were planned for the geographical location of the rapid transit line. (When I was ERA President we did, after all, run ex-PRR MP-54's to New Haven and New Canaan.) And it could provide commuter service there on one line, doing a considerably better job from several points of view than the existing latest equpment. Earlier commuter equipment (possibly defined as interurban or rapid transit equipment, depending on your point of view) did make that trip and served as commuter equpment in the rapid transit line's geographical area until replaced by downgraded six-wheel-truck air-conditioned parlor cars reseated for commuter sevice. But the technology of the relocated equpment was changed, for this essentially temporary new assignement, replacing wood equipment until the downgraded parlor cars were available..
The South Shore changed technology during its history, moving from AC to DC IN TIME, BUT NOT AT A LOCATION. Similarly, the IC Suburban went from steam to electric, a change in time but not location. And both are commuter railroads.
Regarding Al's question. I could say the commuter railroad and the particular rapid transit line are in different geographical locations. Except for this: It would be possible to actually operate the latest commuter equpment of the commuter line to a station within easy walking distance of a station on the rapid transit line, or one could take the local transit system, using two heavy rail rapid transit lines, to make the connection, or use a local bus, or use heavy rail and light rail. But none of the current and new commuter equipment has made that trip. Maybe someday it will, on a fan trip or for testing if similar commuter equipment were planned for the geographical location of the rapid transit line. (When I was ERA President we did, after all, run ex-PRR MP-54's to New Haven and New Canaan.) And it could provide commuter service there on one line, doing a considerably better job from several points of view than the existing latest equpment. Earlier commuter equipment (possibly defined as interurban or rapid transit equipment, depending on your point of view) did make that trip and served as commuter equpment in the rapid transit line's geographical area until replaced by downgraded six-wheel-truck air-conditioned parlor cars reseated for commuter sevice. But the technology of the relocated equpment was changed, for this essentially temporary new assignement, replacing wood equipment until the downgraded parlor cars were available..
Thanks for the clarification, Dave! I was going to point out that the M-series trainsets running on LIRR in the 1970s - 80s looked VERY similar to the cars the old IND division of New York City's subway system was operating at the same time. They both used "shoe," of course, but I think the voltages may have varied. They are both standard-gauge, but there would have been clearance and curve issues that probably would have kept the LIRR stock from negotiating even the IND's relatively spacious statistics.
But I'm not offering this as an answer because there have got to be more succinct matches out there. Therefore I don't want to cite LIRR (orig. PRR) history, or that of the IND.
I'll keep watching and wondering! al
I
Now you've moved me east to Philadelphia and t he Philadelphia and Western (Norristown High Speed Line) vs the PRR parallel (sorta, cross the river like) line. Now both under SEPTA. Third rail and catenary make the difference. So the "new" cars were those brought from Chicago. Details escape me in my morning fog.
I'm going to throw some wood on the fire here because I don't have the full answer but...
...IC and South Shore are the two properties that come to mind and the equipment interchange has to do with car hieghts at stations and couplers. One is/was a railroad the other an interurban. There were other lines, like the North Shore and other Insull properties in Chicago Land.
daveklepper Interestingly, after I posted my reply (and left the hotel where I used the computer with an internet connection, since I still don't have one of my own and am using one at the Hebrew U at the present time). I realized the National Limited was a B&O train, not a PRR, and that I had meant the Liberty Limited. I also wanted to ask the question of whether the Spirit of St, Louis had been introduced with the Fleet of Modernism or had ever existed as a heavyweight all-Pullman train? You have answered that question for me, so that is the right answer of course. The 7th Day of Passover and the preparations for it prevented returning before now. I hope everyone had a fine Easter. Jerusalem was very very crowded with Christian pilgrims, and I am glad they found things peaceful and under control. In walking in Jerusalem, I had to detour because some narrow Old City streets were jammed with Christian pilgrims and other areas were closed except for people headed for a particular church or shrine. I hope they all got to pray where they wanted to pray! My question: There is one commuter USA railroad and one USA so-called "heavy-rail" rapid transit line that have one characteristic in common. And this characteristic is not shared by any other railroad, commuter railroad, rapid transit, or light rail line in the USA or Canada, just these two. But there used to be possibly over 40 throughout the USA! 1. What is the technical characterstic. (And both are standard gauge, but don't try running one line's equipment on the other under power!) 2. Which are the two lines. Who owns them now, who built them, give as much history as you can. 3. At what point on each line does the technical characteristic best manifest itself, both now and originally. 4. What is different technically about the two lines that prevents them from ever thinking of interchanging equipment. 5. Name similar operations that used to exist, including system name, specific lines, and locations for the "point" discussed above. Hint: There are examples in all types of rail operations, including on-street streetcars if you stretch a point just a little. 1 through 4 are necessary for a right answer. 5 is optional, but do what you can!
Interestingly, after I posted my reply (and left the hotel where I used the computer with an internet connection, since I still don't have one of my own and am using one at the Hebrew U at the present time). I realized the National Limited was a B&O train, not a PRR, and that I had meant the Liberty Limited. I also wanted to ask the question of whether the Spirit of St, Louis had been introduced with the Fleet of Modernism or had ever existed as a heavyweight all-Pullman train? You have answered that question for me, so that is the right answer of course. The 7th Day of Passover and the preparations for it prevented returning before now. I hope everyone had a fine Easter. Jerusalem was very very crowded with Christian pilgrims, and I am glad they found things peaceful and under control. In walking in Jerusalem, I had to detour because some narrow Old City streets were jammed with Christian pilgrims and other areas were closed except for people headed for a particular church or shrine. I hope they all got to pray where they wanted to pray!
My question: There is one commuter USA railroad and one USA so-called "heavy-rail" rapid transit line that have one characteristic in common. And this characteristic is not shared by any other railroad, commuter railroad, rapid transit, or light rail line in the USA or Canada, just these two. But there used to be possibly over 40 throughout the USA!
1. What is the technical characterstic. (And both are standard gauge, but don't try running one line's equipment on the other under power!)
2. Which are the two lines. Who owns them now, who built them, give as much history as you can.
3. At what point on each line does the technical characteristic best manifest itself, both now and originally.
4. What is different technically about the two lines that prevents them from ever thinking of interchanging equipment.
5. Name similar operations that used to exist, including system name, specific lines, and locations for the "point" discussed above. Hint: There are examples in all types of rail operations, including on-street streetcars if you stretch a point just a little.
1 through 4 are necessary for a right answer. 5 is optional, but do what you can!
Intriguing question, dk! May I ask for a clarification: are that one commuter-rail line and that one heavy-rail line located in the same metro area? -- Speaking broadly, such as Southern California, NW Indiana/Chicago or NY/NJ, that sort of thing...?
daveklepperI am guessing: The National Limited or the Spirit of St. Louis, In addition to carrying cars from New York, cars from Washington via Baltimore and the Baltimore Northern route were added at Harrisburgh, and at Pittsburgh, cars were dropped for St. Louis and posibly Cincninnati. The introduction of the streamlined version in 1938 obviously put and end to this practice.
I am guessing: The National Limited or the Spirit of St. Louis, In addition to carrying cars from New York, cars from Washington via Baltimore and the Baltimore Northern route were added at Harrisburgh, and at Pittsburgh, cars were dropped for St. Louis and posibly Cincninnati.
The introduction of the streamlined version in 1938 obviously put and end to this practice.
My guess would be the Liberty Limited as it was accorded almost equal status to the Broadway and the two joined at Harrisburg for the trip to Chicago. I would also think it ended in the 1938 streamlining of the Broadway and the introduction of the Fleet of Modernism. What year they were combined would probably be about 1931 or 32 when the depression was at its worst.Al - in - Stockton
Actually you and Passengerfan got all three parts of the question in your responses.
First off, the National Limited was a B&O train.
The Broadway was combined with the Spirit of St. Louis between New York and Pittsburgh.
This was done briefly from February through April 1932, at which time the Spirit of St. Louis received coaches and lost its extra-fare and the Broadway became independent again and kept its all-Pullman status.
Daveklepper, since you got two of the three parts of the question, the next question is yours.
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