OK, its time the wrap this question up. The responses I received were as follows:CSSHEGEWISCH Erie Limited - Erie - New York-Chicago Alton Limited - C&A - Chicago-St. Louis Nickel Plate Limited - NKP - Chicago-Buffalo Pere Marquette - PM - Detroit- Detroit-Grand Rapids; Grand Rapids-Chicago North Western Limited - C&NW - Chicago-MinneapolisHENRY6 Rutland Flyer - Rutland - Wabash Cannon Ball - Wabash- St. Louis-DetroitDAVEKLEPPER Pennsylvania Limited - PRR - New York-Chicago Pere Marquette - PM - Chicago-Grand Rapids Lackawanna Limited - DLW - New York-Buffalo Nickel Plate Limited - NKP - Chicago-Buffalo Katy Flyer - MKT - St. Louis-Texas C&O Express - PRR - New york-Washington C&O Limited - C&O - Washington-ChicagoADKDIVFAN Rio Grande Zephyr - DRGW - Denver-Ogden Erie-Lackwanna Limited - EL - New York-Chicago Pennsylvania Special - PRR - New York-ChicagoThanks to all who participated. I'm going to give the nod to daveklepper through his tenacity even though he and csshegwisch technically were tied - daveklepper had some entries that cssegwisch entered.As for the other possible answers, as mentioned earlier, I have nearly 300 names and variations of names that would have qualified for this question. For the sake of brevity and to move on with this forum, Ill give some of the highlights of my list.The greatest portion of names that qualified were from the PRR in their New York-Washington service. In carrying cars beyond Washington via the C&O, Southern Railway, SAL, ACL and Norfolk and Western, the PRR designated their New York-Washington trains to reflect the extra through cars in various ways:- New York and Washington Express/Washington and New York Express along with the connecting railroad name(s),- After 1932, one of the named trains, such as the President, Legion, Arlington, etc., along with the connecting railroad name(s),- Naming a run utilizing the connecting railroads names exclusively.This practice existed from the 1880's up to the 1950's.
As for trains from other railroads, here's a sample:ACL Express - RFP/ACL - Washington-JacksonvilleAtlantic Coast Line Limited - ACL/RFP/PRR - Jacksonville-New YorkB&A Southwestern - B&A/NYC - Boston-ClevelandB&A Wolveriene - B&A/NYC/MC - Boston-ChicagoB&O Express - LV - New York-BuffaloBig Four Limited - NYC/B4 - New York-St. Louis/CincinnatiC&O Resort Special - PC/CO - New York-White Sulphur SpringsC&O Special - B4/C&O - St. Louis-WashingtonFlorida East Coast Limited - PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC - New York-Jacksonville-Miami-Key WestFrisco Express - CEI - Chicago-St. LouisFrisco Limited - Frisco - Birmingham-Kansas CityFrisco Special - CEI - Chicago-St. LouisGreat Northern Express - CBQ/GN - Kansas City-Billings-SeattleGreat Northern Flyer - St. Paul-SeattleGreat Northern Limited - St. Paul-SeattleGreat Western Daylight - CGW - Chicago-MinneapolisGreat Western Limited - CGW - Chicago-MinneapolisGreat Western Special - CGW - Chicago-MinneapolisKaty Special - MKT - St. Louis-TexasMichigan Central Express - NYC/MC - New York-ChicagoMichigan Central Limited - NYC/MC - New York-ChicagoMichigan Central Special - NYC/MC - New York-ChicagoNew York Central Limited - B4 - St. Louis-clevelandNew York Central Limited - B4/LSMS/NYC - St. Louis/Cincinnati-New YorkNorth Western Mail - C&NW - Chicago-MinneapolisNorth Western Special - C&NW - Chicago-MinneapolisNorthern Pacific Express - CBQ/NP - Chicago-SeattleNorthern Pacific Limited - NP - St. Paul-WinnepegRio Grande Express - DRG - Denve-Grand JunctionSanta Fe Eight - ATSF - Los Angeles-ChicagoSeaboard Fast Mail - SAL - Hamlet-AtlantaSeaboard Air Line Local - SAL - Hamlet-ColumbiaSeaboard Florida Limited - PRR/RFP/SAL - New York-MiamiSeaboard Mail - RFP/SAL - Washington-JacksonvilleSeaboard Passenger, Mail and Express - SAL - Portsmouth-NorlinaSouthern Railway Fast Mail - SR/Plant System - Washington-JacksonvilleWestern Pacific San Francisco Express - DRGW/WP - Denver-Oakland
daveklepper - take it way!
daveklepperYou are probably more right than I am on this subject. On page 103 of the Westing Apex of the Atlantics, the 1914 PRR train No. 56 is identified as the F. F. V. - Southern Railway Express, but on Page 104 it is identified as the C & O - Southern Railway Express, same train number, same year.
You are probably more right than I am on this subject. On page 103 of the Westing Apex of the Atlantics, the 1914 PRR train No. 56 is identified as the F. F. V. - Southern Railway Express, but on Page 104 it is identified as the C & O - Southern Railway Express, same train number, same year.
As I had mentioned in an earlier forum entry, names of passenger trains before the 1920's was a capricious affair and unfortunately, this has crept into rail enthusiast publications..
I will get back to you. It was in the period when E6's were handling the premium NY-DC trains, before the K4's took over.
daveklepperI guess I will have to research that book myself and give you the dates recorded in it.
I guess I will have to research that book myself and give you the dates recorded in it.
Unfortunately, I don't have that book. If you can give me the dates that particular train ran I could appreciate it.
Also, my computer hard drive crashed and as a result I spent the last few days "off line" in getting it back in order. Ill give this question another day and Ill tally the results.
Check Fred Westing's Apex of the Atlantics book on the E-6!
daveklepperThe Southern Railway and FFV Express or the FFV and Southern Railway Express. Cars from one of the Soouthern's trains were combined with cars from the Fast Flying Viginian (C&O) and run both ways as one train. The Southern, not the C&O, diner ran through to NYC.
The Southern Railway and FFV Express or the FFV and Southern Railway Express.
Cars from one of the Soouthern's trains were combined with cars from the Fast Flying Viginian (C&O) and run both ways as one train. The Southern, not the C&O, diner ran through to NYC.
When did this name exist? I don't have this on my list. Based on my research, C&O through cars to and from New York tended to run on a PRR train that was named "C&O" somewhere within its name.
daveklepperThe railroads that ran through cars to New York over the PRR would then have their equipment in trains labeled: The Seabord Express or Seabord LimitedThe Seaboard Air Line name was used on various ways on the PRR:Seaboard Air Line and Atlantic Coast Line ExpressSeaboard Air Line ExpressSeaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line and Washington and New York Express...and others... The Coast Line Express or Coast Line LimitedThe Atlantic Coast Line name was used in various ways on the PRR:Atlantic Coast Line ExpressAtlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line ExpressAtlantic Coast Line and Southern Railway Expressand others... The Chesapeak and Ohio Express or Chesapeak and Ohio Limitedboth yes, The Southern Express or Southern LImitedNope, the SR was always represented as the "Southern Railway" in various names. I think one of these has already been posted. I cannot imagine an RF&P express. Their only fast train that did not run south of Richmond was the Blue and Grey, and any through cars to NY were probably handled on regular PRR trains.There was no RF&P express on the PRR. Train name would include the "Richmond" in the name. Those trains would carry through cars to and from Richmond.
The railroads that ran through cars to New York over the PRR would then have their equipment in trains labeled:
The Seabord Express or Seabord Limited
The Seaboard Air Line name was used on various ways on the PRR:
Seaboard Air Line and Atlantic Coast Line Express
Seaboard Air Line Express
Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line and Washington and New York Express...
and others...
The Coast Line Express or Coast Line Limited
The Atlantic Coast Line name was used in various ways on the PRR:
Atlantic Coast Line Express
Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line Express
Atlantic Coast Line and Southern Railway Express
The Chesapeak and Ohio Express or Chesapeak and Ohio Limited
both yes,
The Southern Express or Southern LImited
Nope, the SR was always represented as the "Southern Railway" in various names.
I think one of these has already been posted.
I cannot imagine an RF&P express. Their only fast train that did not run south of Richmond was the Blue and Grey, and any through cars to NY were probably handled on regular PRR trains.
There was no RF&P express on the PRR. Train name would include the "Richmond" in the name. Those trains would carry through cars to and from Richmond.
There was definetly an Atlanta and New Orleans Express, but that was not the name of a railroad, as far as I know.
daveklepperIn that case, there must also have been a: Fort Worth and Denver City No. 1 Nope Fort Worth and Denver City No. 2 Nope Fort Worth and Denver City Denver Express Nope But a Forth Worth and Denver City Vestibule Express I am not so sure about! Nope Colorad and Southern Limited? Possibly even narrow gauge? Nope South Park Limited Nope South Park Express Nope Rio Grande Southern Express? Nope Virginian Express or Virginian Limited or Virginian Special Nope - I don't think the Virginian ever had a named train.
In that case, there must also have been a:
Fort Worth and Denver City No. 1 Nope
Fort Worth and Denver City No. 2 Nope
Fort Worth and Denver City Denver Express Nope
But a Forth Worth and Denver City Vestibule Express I am not so sure about! Nope
Colorad and Southern Limited? Possibly even narrow gauge? Nope
South Park Limited Nope
South Park Express Nope
Rio Grande Southern Express? Nope
Virginian Express or Virginian Limited or Virginian Special Nope - I don't think the Virginian ever had a named train.
The Burlington's Number One and Burlington's Number Two that I previously mentioned were displayed as such - not Burlington's No. 1/Burlington's No. 2.
One RR that used names of other railroads in their composite names was the PRR in their New York-Washington service. Look there for inspiration.
Fort Worth and Denver City No. 1
Fort Worth and Denver City No. 2
Fort Worth and Denver City Denver Express
But a Forth Worth and Denver City Vestibule Express I am not so sure about!
Colorad and Southern Limited? Possibly even narrow gauge?
South Park Limited
South Park Express
Rio Grande Southern Express?
Virginian Express or Virginian Limited or Virginian Special
daveklepperBefore fleet names were adopted for fleets, the first trains of the type were called; The Burlington Zephyr, not just the Zephyr. and The Rock Island Rocket, not just the Rocket. Inclusion of the railroad name in the advertising and promotion as part of the train name identified the product as TRAIN. This lasted only as long as there was only one on each railroad. Then city names replaced the railroad names.
Before fleet names were adopted for fleets, the first trains of the type were called;
The Burlington Zephyr, not just the Zephyr.
and
The Rock Island Rocket, not just the Rocket.
Inclusion of the railroad name in the advertising and promotion as part of the train name identified the product as TRAIN.
This lasted only as long as there was only one on each railroad. Then city names replaced the railroad names.
That may be true, but generally the railroad name was used in conjunction with the train name in promotional and marketing efforts only. The names I have been requesting were actually in the railroad schedule and consist listings. Ironically, one of the railroads you mentioned, the Burlington, did actually name their trains with the railroad name on a consistent basis in the late 1890's-early 1900's.
Examples are:
Burlington's Denver Express
Burlington's Number One
Burlington's Number Two
Burlington's Vestibule Express
adkdivfanJust to add to the confusion, the names "Broadway Ltd" & "Pennsylvania Ltd" were switched to other services late in the game. In the 50's, PRR 1/2, an all-Pullman extra-fare service known as the Pennsylvania Limited, was dropped, and the name was attached to a train previously known as 'The Gotham". The better-known switch occurred in 12/67 when 28/29 were discontinued and the "Broadway" name was applied to the General.
Just to add to the confusion, the names "Broadway Ltd" & "Pennsylvania Ltd" were switched to other services late in the game. In the 50's, PRR 1/2, an all-Pullman extra-fare service known as the Pennsylvania Limited, was dropped, and the name was attached to a train previously known as 'The Gotham". The better-known switch occurred in 12/67 when 28/29 were discontinued and the "Broadway" name was applied to the General.
What you describe was more of the rule rather then the exception. In the Amtrak era there is a false sense of stability as far as passenger train nomenclature is concerned. For better or worse, excepting a few de luxe trains that were more or less stable, the passenger train names here in the US and Canada were more or less a capricious endeavor, with names appearing and disappearing with regularity. It wasn't until the late 1920's that railroads discovered that train names had marketing value and by the time streamliners began appearing, you begin to see branding of passenger train services by the use of fleet names.
Passenger train names has been one of my primary railroad-related interests ever since high school, and at this point I have a database of thousands of train names and variants of names going back to the 1880's. About 300 of those names can answer the current question about passenger train names that contained railroad names in them.
So bring on some more answers!
Thanks. Always willing to learn something new. The dates are important.
daveklepperDo you have a timetable or Official Guide that lists the "Pennsylvania Special"?
Do you have a timetable or Official Guide that lists the "Pennsylvania Special"?
I have plenty of Official Guides that document the Pennsylvania Special. The Pennsylvania Special was the 20-hour train the PRR inaugurated the same day the New York Central and Hudson River RR and the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern began the 20th Century Limited. The Pennsylvania Special did not become the Broadway Limited until 1912. There was also a Pennsylvania Special that ran on the PRR-Lines West in the early 1890's from Pittsburgh to Indianapolis. The following is a 1909 Milwaukee Journal advertisement about the Pennsylvania Special.
adkdivfanA few more: "Rio Grande Zephyr" D&RGW Denver-Ogden: "Soo-Dominion" Soo/CP Twin Cities-Vancouver; "Erie-Lackawanna Limited" EL Hoboken-Chicago (name change after the 1960 merger, later the Phoebe Snow name was used); "Pennsylvania Special" PRR NY-Chicago (the forerunner of the Broadway, & a seperate train from the Pa Ltd). I realize I'm stretching so please consider this a non-competitive entry.
A few more: "Rio Grande Zephyr" D&RGW Denver-Ogden: "Soo-Dominion" Soo/CP Twin Cities-Vancouver; "Erie-Lackawanna Limited" EL Hoboken-Chicago (name change after the 1960 merger, later the Phoebe Snow name was used); "Pennsylvania Special" PRR NY-Chicago (the forerunner of the Broadway, & a seperate train from the Pa Ltd). I realize I'm stretching so please consider this a non-competitive entry.
All of your entries are good.
Despite your request I'm considering this as one of the entries. This question on the surface may seem simple but its going to take a lot of stretching to get all of the answers.
Also keep in mind that the purpose of the Classic Railroad Quiz is ultimately to exchange information and knowledge between like minded individuals who are interested in railroad history. All submissions are good and the more people contribute the more we all learn.
Again, it was the Pennsylvania Limited, not the Pennsylvania Special. Important.
"The Pennsylvania Limited was the PRR flagship before the Broadway was introduced, and should qualify . Actually, so should the Broadway, because it was named after the four-track RofW and not after the street in New York City. Both NYC-Chi, of course."
The Pennsylvania Limited is OK. The Broadway is not - Im looking for passenger train names that had the actual railroad name in it such as the Pennsylvania Limited.
"Pere Marquattes. Several trains, with the destinations then made part of the name." OK
"Lackawanna Limited, Nickel Plate Limited. The Southern Crescent was the Crescent renamed after it got coaches and was rerouted via Birmingham instead of Montgomery."
The first two are fine, but the Southern Crescent name was actually derived from the combination of the Southerner and Crescent then those two trains were combined.
"The stillborn streamliner that never ran, the Chessie." Nope - I'm looking for literal railroad names, not nicknames.
"The Katy Flyer:" OK
So far so good. There are plenty more out there. Also, there are a number of examples of named trains that were named for off line railroads. Two examples:
C&O Special - Big4 - Chicago-Cincinnati
C&O Express - PRR - New York-Washington
The Pennsylvania Limited was the PRR flagship before the Broadway was introduced, and should qualify . Actually, so should the Broadway, because it was named after the four-track RofW and not after the street in New York City. Both NYC-Chi, of course.
Pere Marquattes. Several trains, with the destinations then made part of the name.
Lackawanna Limited, Nickel Plate Limited. The Southern Crescent was the Crescent renamed after it got coaches and was rerouted via Birmingham instead of Montgomery.
The stillborn streamliner that never ran, the Chessie.
The Katy Flyer
henry6 The Sante Fe Chief...was it named for the railroad or the city? Chi-LA The Southern Belle...wasn't it named for the Southern? Rutland Flyer: Rouses Point, NY to NYC via Rutland, Bennington, and the NYC's NY and Harlem. The Wabash Cannonball St. Louis to Detroit but named after the railroad or the river?
The Sante Fe Chief...was it named for the railroad or the city? Chi-LA
The Southern Belle...wasn't it named for the Southern?
Rutland Flyer: Rouses Point, NY to NYC via Rutland, Bennington, and the NYC's NY and Harlem.
The Wabash Cannonball St. Louis to Detroit but named after the railroad or the river?
The Santa Fe Chief was officially named the Chief, not the Sante Fe Chief.
The Southern Belle operated on the Kansas City Southern, not the Southern.
The Rutland Flyer and Wabash Cannonball are OK. The Wabash Cannonball was named after the song which, I assume referred to a train on the Wabash.
Oh, yes, I'm anxiously awaiting all the expected entries.
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henry6Yeah, the problem here is that virtually every road had a "limited" in their own name. .. So lets add: the Rutland Flyer, The Wabash Cannonball, the Sante Fe Chief, et al., The Southern Belle,...but are these not geographic names (too)? Ansewr(s) for this are gonna be fun to watch.
Yeah, the problem here is that virtually every road had a "limited" in their own name. ..
So lets add: the Rutland Flyer, The Wabash Cannonball, the Sante Fe Chief, et al., The Southern Belle,...but are these not geographic names (too)? Ansewr(s) for this are gonna be fun to watch.
Why is it a problem? That means more entries.....
As for your entries, could you also enter the RR and endpoints. Also, I'm not accepting the Chief and Southern Belle. I don't recall any railroads named Chief or Southern Belle.
CSSHEGEWISCHFor openers: Erie Limited - Erie - Jersey City-Chicago Alton Limited - Alton - Chicago-St. Louis Nickel Plate Limited - NKP - Chicago-Buffalo Pere Marquettes - PM - Chicago-Grand Rapids and Detroit-Grand Rapids North Western Limited - C&NW - Chicago - Twin Cities
For openers:
Erie Limited - Erie - Jersey City-Chicago
Alton Limited - Alton - Chicago-St. Louis
Nickel Plate Limited - NKP - Chicago-Buffalo
Pere Marquettes - PM - Chicago-Grand Rapids and Detroit-Grand Rapids
North Western Limited - C&NW - Chicago - Twin Cities
All good...
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