the b&o
daveklepper The question of through service in LA was answered by you and also by a posting on the TRAINS general discussion forum about the "continiuation track" in the LAUPT throat layout that was there specifically to allow run arounds and switching for through trains at the stub-end terminal. So, I would say possibly there was a Seattle - Chicago through sleeper at one time or another, The via Portland car was the Pullman that arrived at Seattle at one station and left at another. The reason? There was pool service between Seattle and Portland. When I rode, there were three trains each way each day, spaced conveniently throughout the day. One was GN, one was NP, and one was UP. Tickets were interchangeable. So the through Pullman via Portland went one way via UP and the other way via GN or NP. Even pretty late, without a through Chicago car, there were through Seattle - SF and Seattle - LA cars that were handled this way. The GM Train of Tomorrow was one of the pool trains for a while, I think UP, but I am not sure. The Seattle cars to SF (Oakland) and LA were handled on SP's Cascade, but I am unsure whether the LA car went via San Jose or down the Valley south of Oakland. Do I make up for the real mistake of forgetting that the Olympian Hiawatha ran through Seattle to Tacoma? Next question(s): During WWII there were two through trains between Portland, ME, and Grand Central Terminal, New York City. 1. How did both trains get around the lack of a North Station - South Station Boston passenger train connection? 2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference? 3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical? 4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains? 5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points. 6. Today, which railroads own the tracks that these trains used? Again, be specific as to the junciton points. (As far as I know, all is still in service, some possibly freight only.)
The question of through service in LA was answered by you and also by a posting on the TRAINS general discussion forum about the "continiuation track" in the LAUPT throat layout that was there specifically to allow run arounds and switching for through trains at the stub-end terminal. So, I would say possibly there was a Seattle - Chicago through sleeper at one time or another, The via Portland car was the Pullman that arrived at Seattle at one station and left at another. The reason? There was pool service between Seattle and Portland. When I rode, there were three trains each way each day, spaced conveniently throughout the day. One was GN, one was NP, and one was UP. Tickets were interchangeable. So the through Pullman via Portland went one way via UP and the other way via GN or NP. Even pretty late, without a through Chicago car, there were through Seattle - SF and Seattle - LA cars that were handled this way. The GM Train of Tomorrow was one of the pool trains for a while, I think UP, but I am not sure. The Seattle cars to SF (Oakland) and LA were handled on SP's Cascade, but I am unsure whether the LA car went via San Jose or down the Valley south of Oakland.
Do I make up for the real mistake of forgetting that the Olympian Hiawatha ran through Seattle to Tacoma?
Next question(s): During WWII there were two through trains between Portland, ME, and Grand Central Terminal, New York City.
1. How did both trains get around the lack of a North Station - South Station Boston passenger train connection?
2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference?
3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical?
4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains?
5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points.
6. Today, which railroads own the tracks that these trains used? Again, be specific as to the junciton points. (As far as I know, all is still in service, some possibly freight only.)
First, I was asking about the sleeper carried on the City of Portland. Yes, it went up to Seattle on the UP's train, which used The Train of Tomorrow's equipment, and went into Union Station (UP & MILW), and came back to Portland, from King Street (NP & GN) on Pool 408, which was operated by NP (you can tell which road actually operated a day train by seeing which road operated the parlor car).
None of the old Guides I have (1893, 1916, 1930, many from 1937 on) shows any Chicago-Seattle service via Los Angeles. There was, at least in 1930, a Portland-Chicago sleeper via Klamath Falls and the Modoc route. As to through service Seattle-LA, the 1930 Guide shows such on the West Coast, going through Sacramento and the San Joaquin Valley. It is possible that through service did exist via the Coast Line, but I do not know of any prior to Amtrak's service. Incidentally, in both 1916 and 1930, there were through sleeper between Chicago and LA via Oakland using both Coast Line and San Joaquin Valley line.
Yes, Dave, you have covered your track quite well by explaining the use of the different stations in Seattle.
Johnny
Dae, I should added that you have earned the privilege of asking the next question (despite your though about the Milwaukee).
Dave Klepper: "....I believe in 1950 The Portland Rose and the City of Portland would have such through sleeprs, then obviously the North Coast Limited, the Mainstreeter. the Olympian Hiawatha, the Empire Builder, the Western Star. I am fairly certain that no such car ran via the AT&SF, or via the Cal Zephyr, but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route..
By 1958 the list had shrunk to just the five through trains listed after "obviously.""
Dave, the UP had no sleepers with the endpoints of Chicago and Seattle in February of 1950. Incidentally, after the City of Portland was inaugurated the Portland Rose became a Kansas City-Portland train (no connections to/from Chicago).
Nor did the Olympian Hiawatha have any sleepers with the same endpoints–Seattle was a waystation between Chicago and Tacoma on the Milwaukee Road.
The Mainstreeter did not exist in 1950; the then secondary train, the Alaskan, did not have an sleepers except St. Paul-Mandan and Billings-Spokane.
Also, the name, Western Star, did not exist in 1950–but the Oriental Limited did have the desired cars. And–the two GN trains had somewhat different routings; the Builder went through New Rockford, and the Limited went through Grand Forks.
Absolutely the, SFe and the Cal Zephyr had none. (When the GN’s line down to Bieber, connecting with the WP, was constructed, there was thought of running a San Francisco section of the premier GN train that way.) Also, the SP contributed in no way to Chicago-Seattle service.
So, you named the three trains (each with different routings) for 1950; should I gig you one for saying that the Olympian Hiawatha began and ended in Seattle?
Now, as to 1958, the Mainstreeter (via Helena) and the North Coast Limited (via Butte), the Empire Builder (same routing), the Western Star (same routing except that for a time, it ran via Great Falls as well), AND the City of Portland! carried Chicago-Seattle cars, for a total of five trains–all running different routings.
Just think! in a time that train service was being reduced, two more trains carried Chicago-Seattle cars.
Another (no points) question: wb, the car carried through Portland arrived in Seattle at Union Station and left from King Street Station. Why?
IGN: "What about the Canadian connections? I recall somewhere that there were connections from Chicago to the Western Canadian provinces. Where there any that continued thru to Seattle?"
I know of none from Chicago, except possibly about 100 years ago. There was through, especially summer, service Chicago-Vancouver before and after WWII.
For many years, the Sunset Limited was a New Orleans-San Francisco train by way of Los Angeles
daveklepper" but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route.. By 1958 the list had shrunk to just the five through trains listed after "obviously."
" but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route..
By 1958 the list had shrunk to just the five through trains listed after "obviously."
Someone stated in one of these threads that for some reason the SP did not really have thru service thru Los Angeles for some reason. So I would kind of doubt that the Golden State Limited had thru sleepers.
What about the Canadian connections? I recall somewhere that there were connections from Chicago to the Western Canadian provinces. Where there any that continued thru to Seattle?
Thx IGN
You are correct: I believe in 1950 The Portland Rose and the City of Portland would have such through sleeprs, then obviously the North Coast Limited, the Mainstreeter. the Olympian Hiawatha, the Empire Builder, the Western Star. I am fairly certain that no such car ran via the AT&SF, or via the Cal Zephyr, but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route..
Deggestydaveklepper The AT&SF is the right railroad, and you probably have the correct answer, but you might also check the initial Super Chief operation when it was first introduced as weekly or every third day operation. And go ahead and ask the next question if you have one! Dave, I looked in the November, 1937, and January, 1941, issues of the Guide, and discovered that the Super Chief made many operational stops between Kansas City and Barstow, but no scheduled stops for passengers, though it was possible to stop at some stations under certain conditions. I wonder if the Chief made operational stops that are not shown in the timetable in 1930. As to a question: in February of 1950, what trains carried sleepers with end points of Chicago and Seattle--and in April of 1958, what trains then carried sleepers with the same end points?
daveklepper The AT&SF is the right railroad, and you probably have the correct answer, but you might also check the initial Super Chief operation when it was first introduced as weekly or every third day operation. And go ahead and ask the next question if you have one!
The AT&SF is the right railroad, and you probably have the correct answer, but you might also check the initial Super Chief operation when it was first introduced as weekly or every third day operation. And go ahead and ask the next question if you have one!
As to a question: in February of 1950, what trains carried sleepers with end points of Chicago and Seattle--and in April of 1958, what trains then carried sleepers with the same end points?
Did UP have thru service here? I would think the City of Portland, Portland Rose the Challenger might have had thru cars as described. (Dream Trains 2 article on the City of St Louis describes thru cars on this train as traveling on the Idahoan. I would think that this would be a connection for other trains as well)
Not having a Guide. These are just WAG's and before I forget what about Soo Line/CP ?(I think) .
daveklepper Again, please check other long distance timetables, and do go back to the 1920's if necessary.
Again, please check other long distance timetables, and do go back to the 1920's if necessary.
al-in-chgoYes, I'm pretty sure that under PRR the DC/Union Station to NYC/Penna was listed at 224 point something miles even though the numbers had not been readjusted when the trains stopped running in and out of Center City Phila. Maybe it just didn't make financial sense to re-order the mileposts? And so many other operations so convenienty used the mileposts as markers to determine elapsed distance. This was particularly true up in N.J. and may still be for all I know.
Well, Al, the mileposts do not run continuously from NYP to DC. Here is a list (from an Employee TT) of the mileposts from NYC to DC: NYP: 0.0; Hudson: 8.6/8.0; West Philadelphia: 89.2/1.5; Washington Union: 136.0. This actually comes out to 225.2 miles. Yet, the PRR showed it as 226.6 miles, as though the trains ran into Broad Street.
Aside: if you really want to see dual mileposts at stations, look at an SP timetable; apparently when track was straightened the new MP at the next station was shown, along with the older MP. The Burlington/NP/GN lines did not even show new mileposts, you have to look at the distance shown between stations to see how far it actually is from division point to division point. Some roads will have notes as to the actual distance between two mile posts when there have been changes in the track, such as a special instruction in ACL/SCL/CSX TT's that tell you that the distance between A768 and A771 (between Winter Park and Sanford) is so many feet.
daveklepper Hint: Can you check some other railroad's timetable, particularly known for long distance fast passenger trains? And Amtrak did at one time schedule a nonstop Washington-Newark-NY Metroliner, with Washington-Newark 218 miles, I believe. Ithink it was 6AM or 6:30AM departure from Washington.
Hint: Can you check some other railroad's timetable, particularly known for long distance fast passenger trains?
And Amtrak did at one time schedule a nonstop Washington-Newark-NY Metroliner, with Washington-Newark 218 miles, I believe. Ithink it was 6AM or 6:30AM departure from Washington.
I agree with the statement about the Washington-Newark-NYC/Penn express, but look for it quick in timetables: that particular run didn't last very long because it annoyed Philadelphians no end to see the Metroliner creep thru 30th St. station knowing that a stop would add only a couple of mins. to the schedule.
Yes, I'm pretty sure that under PRR the DC/Union Station to NYC/Penna was listed at 224 point something miles even though the numbers had not been readjusted when the trains stopped running in and out of Center City Phila. Maybe it just didn't make financial sense to re-order the mileposts? And so many other operations so convenienty used the mileposts as markers to determine elapsed distance. This was particularly true up in N.J. and may still be for all I know.
Western lines, hmmm. I can't tackle that without research. Someone will know, I bet. - al
I was citing the January, 1941, Guide. I did not check all of the issues that I have, but I did look in one from 1948, one from 1950, and one from 1958, and found no listing for any other train that ran non-stop from New York even to Baltimore (roughly 186 miles), much less to Washington. If I could find the time, I would look at all of that I have and see if there was any other train that ran non-stop farther than the train I reported.
I throw my 2 cents worth in many times from memory(a lot of times fuzzy memories of what I remember being told). So someone with an with a guide answer.
narig01 FYI . Auto Train did make several stops for crew changes, before Amtrak. Since the only stop it makes is in Rocky Mount to change crews & restock. My nomination there was a mail train that ran New York Penn Station to Washington DC non stop overnite. It lasted into the 60's I think. I believe it had a coach or two tacked on the rear. 300 Miles or so? Rgds IGN
FYI . Auto Train did make several stops for crew changes, before Amtrak. Since the only stop it makes is in Rocky Mount to change crews & restock.
My nomination there was a mail train that ran New York Penn Station to Washington DC non stop overnite. It lasted into the 60's I think. I believe it had a coach or two tacked on the rear. 300 Miles or so?
Rgds IGN
The NY-DC distance is more like 224 miles. (PRR included the distance nto Broad Street and back even after 30th Street became the stop for Philadelphia., making it 226.6 miles). In January of 1941, the section of #103 that had nothing but Washington sleepers had no stops scheduled betwenn NYC and DC. The section with Baltimore and Southern sleepers stopped at Baltimore.
Well, if we made it into the late Sixties (pre- and including Amtrak), that would be the Auto Train, Lorton VA to Sanford FL, if one means scheduled stops and not refueling or crew changes.
I am not submitting that, though, because by my interp. of the rules the answers must pertain to the years 1960 or earlier. - al
In the steam era, it would be the "South Wind" on L&N between Nashville and Birmingham, a distance of 205 miles. L&N 295 was equipped with a large tender and was assigned to this run regularly, not too much of a problem since the "South Wind" only ran every third day.
What passenger train had the record for the longest non-stop run between stations. (I know the answer to this one.) And which were the stations. (I forgot the answer to this one and the correct answer will remind me.)
Incidentally,.don't even consider the 20th Century Limited and the New England States. Sure they did not stop at Cleveland, but they did stop at Collingwood for crew change and mail car switching.
John L. Bevan, president of Illinois Central, and Averill Harriman at Vicksburg, Miss. in 1939
Dave, is there anything you don't know?
from Wikipedia:
William Averell Harriman was born in New York City, the son of railroad baron Edward Henry Harriman and Mary Williamson Averell, and brother of E. Roland Harriman. Harriman was a close friend of Hall Roosevelt (brother of Eleanor Roosevelt).
Harriman was a career financier and a versatile yeoman (and donor) to the Democratic Party in the Sixties, and had been Governor of New York in the Fifties. He was also, though his business connections, Chairman of the U.P. from 1932-1936. Sun Valley was his idea, in, part, because it generated traffic for U.P. trains during the Depression (recall that back then, private railroad co's WANTED people to ride their trains!). Also according to Wiki, it was the U.P.'s engineering department in Omaha that invented the first skiing chairlifts! He died in 1986, going on 95 years old.
He was survived by his third wife, Pamela Harriman, who was onetime U.S. ambassador to France and a leading "doyenne" in Washington D.C. social affairs and politics. She died in 1997. She had previously been married to Winston Churchill's newphew Randolph, and Broadway producer Leland Hayward. It doesn't get much more insider than this, guys.
Okay, daveklepper, the next question is yours! - al
Harriman, of UP - SP fame?
OK, the following question is indeed railroad-related, and that's the hint:
Who was the individual inspired to create and develop Sun Valley, Idaho?
Texas Zepher DSO17Cleburne ? Yes, that is the one. Santa Fe's Cleburne Shops. Home of the 233 CF7s. The last major rebuild projects done at Cleburn were apparently the GP38-2 and GP38-3s. The rebuild of the U23Bs to SF30Bs never happened. Source - Santa Fe Locomotive Faciilties - Gulf Lines by Crump. http://www.amazon.com/Santa-Locomotive-Facilities-Russell-Crump/dp/0965189678/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1282154561&sr=1-2-fkmr1 Your turn to ask a question.
DSO17Cleburne ?
Source - Santa Fe Locomotive Faciilties - Gulf Lines by Crump.
http://www.amazon.com/Santa-Locomotive-Facilities-Russell-Crump/dp/0965189678/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1282154561&sr=1-2-fkmr1
Your turn to ask a question.
I don't have a question ready. Somebody else please ask one.
Cleburne ?
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