Correction, it was a 22 roomette sleeper replacing a 16 section heavywieght, and later it ran only between Florence and Jacksonville.
Not having access to timetables, I am happy to get three, almost four, out of the ten. But I rode the Everglades a number of times, in its last days. I never dreamt that it was once a deluxe all-Pullman train, because in the end it was the all-stops Washington - Jackson local that took all day, about 14 or 16 hours, to make the run. For a while it was overnight between Richmond and Savanna, with a 14-roomette sleeper replacing a 14-section, no-room sleeper. It was the slowest train on the ACL main and had the oldest hand-me-down cars. It also made all the local stops on the RF&P. It was the last use of a heavyweight Pullman on the ACL and RF&P, and occasionally had heavywieght coaches afterward. Still, it occasionally fit my work-and-visiting-friends schedule, so I used it both as a sleeper passenger and as a coach passenger. No food service on board. Meal stop in Florence.
ZephyrOverland, you have them all! (When I was counting them up this morning, I missed the Everglades.)
You coukl call the Floridan an IC train, since the IC handled it farther (Chicago-Birmingham) than the ACL did north of Jacksonville (Albany-Jacksonville); the cars were switched in Jacksonville to the FEC train (all-Pullman) that also carried the Dixie Limited's and Flamingo's East Coast cars, and to the two ACL West Coast trains. And, the Dixie Limited could be called a "Dixie Route" (C&EI-L&N-NCSL-CG) train for the same reason (ACL Albany-Jacksonville). The Flamingo was, of course, coach and Pullman Cincinnati-Jacksonville (it also carried a Chicago-Louisville-Corbin-Jacksonville car).
Also of note is that these trains that ran overnight Jacksonville-Miami had cars to/fromPalm Beach, which were switched at West Palm Beach; sb they left WPB at 0700, and could be occupied in Palm Beach until 0730; nb they were opened at 2200, and left for WPB at 0001 (except for the Everglades car, which left in time to leave WPB at 2255.
You're up!
Johnny
Deggesty In the 1930 winter season, how many all-Pullman trains were operated to/from Florida? (Don't worry about what went on south of Jacksonville, since quite a bit of shifting took place there.) Name the roads and, if you can, name the trains.
In the 1930 winter season, how many all-Pullman trains were operated to/from Florida? (Don't worry about what went on south of Jacksonville, since quite a bit of shifting took place there.) Name the roads and, if you can, name the trains.
ACL
Havana Special
Everglades
Miamian
Gulf Coast Limited
Second The Miamian
Florida Special
Dixie Limited
Floridan
SAL
Orange Blossom Special
Seaboard Florida Limited
SR
Royal Palm DeLuxe
daveklepper The Royal Palm (Sou?), the Florida Special (ACL), the Orange Blossom Special (SAL). Possibly the Havana Special or Havana Limited was all-Pullman at the time, also. (ACL) I knew that the 20th Century Limited had a Boston Section operated by the Boston and Albany, with locomotives prior to the J2a's having Boston and Albany on their tenders. T his section was replaced by the heavyweight New England States Limited, all Pullman, in 1938 when the lightweight 20th Century was introduced. Around 1948 or 1949, the heavyweight all-Pullman New England States was replaced by the mostly Budd lightweight coach and Pullman train. I did not know about the Cleveland - Cincinnati train.
The Royal Palm (Sou?), the Florida Special (ACL), the Orange Blossom Special (SAL).
Possibly the Havana Special or Havana Limited was all-Pullman at the time, also. (ACL)
I knew that the 20th Century Limited had a Boston Section operated by the Boston and Albany, with locomotives prior to the J2a's having Boston and Albany on their tenders. T his section was replaced by the heavyweight New England States Limited, all Pullman, in 1938 when the lightweight 20th Century was introduced. Around 1948 or 1949, the heavyweight all-Pullman New England States was replaced by the mostly Budd lightweight coach and Pullman train.
I did not know about the Cleveland - Cincinnati train.
Now, to call for some head scratching (or timetable/Guide searching), I will give the number of all-Pullman (at least north of Jacksonville) trains to Florida that year: ten.
Deggesty ZephyrOverland: wanswheel: Myron, yes your turn. http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm New York Central/Lake Shore and Michigan Southern's 20th Century Limited was primarily a New York-Chicago train, but two of NYC's subsidiaries also fielded trains using the same name. Name the RR and destinations for these annex runs. I have a memory of having seen mention of a Boston-Chicago 20th Century Limited, operated by the Boston and Albany east of Albany. I do not recall seeing any other, but there may have been a NY-St. Louis train that was operated by the Big 4 west of Cleveland. Also possible was a NY-Detroit train that was operated by the Michigan Central west of Buffalo.
ZephyrOverland: wanswheel: Myron, yes your turn. http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm New York Central/Lake Shore and Michigan Southern's 20th Century Limited was primarily a New York-Chicago train, but two of NYC's subsidiaries also fielded trains using the same name. Name the RR and destinations for these annex runs.
wanswheel: Myron, yes your turn. http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm
Myron, yes your turn.
http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm
New York Central/Lake Shore and Michigan Southern's 20th Century Limited was primarily a New York-Chicago train, but two of NYC's subsidiaries also fielded trains using the same name. Name the RR and destinations for these annex runs.
I have a memory of having seen mention of a Boston-Chicago 20th Century Limited, operated by the Boston and Albany east of Albany. I do not recall seeing any other, but there may have been a NY-St. Louis train that was operated by the Big 4 west of Cleveland. Also possible was a NY-Detroit train that was operated by the Michigan Central west of Buffalo.
Yes, there was a Boston section which transferred Boston cars to and from the New York train at Albany. The Big4 also operated a Twentieth Century Limited, eastbound only, from 1902 to about 1910, primarily as a Cincinnati-Cleveland train with one through Cincinnati-New York Pullman. Unlike the Chicago and Boston Centuries, the Cincinnati Century carried Cincinnati-Cleveland coaches.
Johnny, since you got most of the answer, why don't you ask the next question.
ZephyrOverland wanswheel: Myron, yes your turn. http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm New York Central/Lake Shore and Michigan Southern's 20th Century Limited was primarily a New York-Chicago train, but two of NYC's subsidiaries also fielded trains using the same name. Name the RR and destinations for these annex runs.
wanswheel Myron, yes your turn. http://www.dcmemorials.com/index_indiv0000032.htm
wanswheel Washington Union Station has 6 high statues out front, 4 mythological gods and goddesses and 2 men who actually lived. Name them.
Washington Union Station has 6 high statues out front, 4 mythological gods and goddesses and 2 men who actually lived. Name them.
Prometheus
Themis
Apollo
Ceres
Thales
Archimedes
Wanswheel has the right answer and should ask the next question.
The Washington Baltimore and Annapolis did connect two cities that both used PCC cars (although not while the interurban was in operation). In never ran PCC's itself, but the tracks on Benning Road in Washington are now in place for a new light rail operation and they saw both PCC's and ealrier the WB&A interurubans, along with the deck roof older Washington cars. The WB&A used some articulated cars in the Washington - Baltimore service, and these were also equpped for the conduit system of curent collection for operation into downtown Washington. They did not mingle with streetcars in Baltimore, which was a wide-gauge system, although portions of the right of way are in use for the light rail line south of the city, including the line to the BWA airport.
Pittsburgh had the largest fleet of built-new North American PCC cars. One of the 1600 series was equipped with overhead headlight and a pilot for trial operation on the interurban lines to Washington and Charleroi-Rosco. The trial was judged successful, so about 20 of the 1700 series were built for interurban service. Washington Junction is still a light rail stop on the system, the junction between the line to South Hills Village, which used to go to Washington, PA, and the Library line, which used to go through Donorra Junction (with a single double-end deck roofer providing shuttle service across an impressive bridge to Donorra), Charleroi, with the northbound track running through the carhouse, and Roscoe. Unusual because of wide gauge, even with interchange freight with West Penn Railways, and the use of PCC's. Again, Washington, PA, had three local streetcar lines, which quit before the interurban to Pittsburgh.
If you don't have access to the information on the interurban lines that lasted through WWII and long enough to be equipped with PCC's, then just check all station names on the current light rail system and you will have the clue you need.
You are very very close when you mention Pittsburgh. Yes, Pittsburgh was a broad gauge system, and had two specific interurban lines, which used the PCC cars described. These interurban PCC's were the bulk of the remaining PCC fleet used until the present modern light rail cars arrived. But note that the other interurban, the standard gauge line, connected two cities that both used PCC cars as a major part of the local transportation, even thought the interurban never itself used PCC's but did have some very special cars that were used regularly and were different than most interurban cars.
If you take the trouble to investigate the Pittsburgh system, specifically its two interurban lines, when they were truly two interurban lines and not cut back to suburban operations, you will come up with the answer right away. The name involved actually survives in a specific form along the current light rail operation, not the end point.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/txu-oclc-6445490-electric_railway-joplin-1913.jpg http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/pan/6a05000/6a05300/6a05358r.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/txu-oclc-6445490-electric_railway-joplin-1913.jpg
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/pan/6a05000/6a05300/6a05358r.jpg
"Pittsburg Pa." Don't let this post be seen in Pittsburgh, Pa. Seriously, the variations in spelling of place names from state to state can be confusing., such as Ashville, Ala., and Asheville, N. C.
Sacramento Northern. Last Nickel streetcar in the US. The museum Western Railway Museum. Some of the SN's ROW in Sacramento is used by the light rail there. In addition for a number of years the SN shared its ROW with BART. Oh yes the shared cities Pittsburg Pittsburgh, Ca & Pittsburg Pittsburgh Pa. I don't have my reference books with me, but I think the Pa trackage in Washington, Pa is used by a museum as well. Pittsburg used PCC's
The other item I am thinking about is the Pacific Electric which was (I think) affiliated with Los Angeles Railway(narrow gauge) . Ran out to Riverside, Ca and this ties in with Henry's answer of Riverside, Ma
(This is what happens when it is the end of a long week, day , and I shoot from the hip)
Rgds IGN
Go back to the original posting, please, two urban areas in different parts of the USA with the same name, like Portland Maine and Portland Oregon, both of which at one time had both local streetcars and at least one interurban line.
More hints. The interurban line that served two major cities with both running PCC cars, indeed PCC's possibly the most important part of local transportation, did not run local services and did not have PCC cars. But the interurban line that served the urban area that did not use PCC cars in local service, with all local cars double-end cars, steel,.did use PCC interurban cars. These were equipped with special trucks, also used on many PCC rapid transit cars, with pilots, and a roof mounted headlight supplementing the regular dash headlight. But otherwise they were similar to cars received in the same order for local service. And all interuban cars on this particular line were single-ended, turned on a wye at the downtown interuban station, in contrast to the local cars. The other end of the line did have a vast PCC fleet, providing the bulk of local transportation. WEihtin the particular area, while on the tracks of one of the local lines, the interurban cars often did also provide local service, supplementing the local cars.
One of the two urban areas is at least as well known throughout the world as Portland Maine and Portland Oregon. The other is hardly know at all outside the state where it is located.
There are two scenerios that come to mind for me. One, Boston's Riverside line, I'll dismiss out of hand. Second is Philadelphia with Liberty Bell Route from Allentown and the Norristown High Speed lines...the Media line also connects in there someplace..69th St. maybe...my knowledge of the set up is very vague but I know broad guage and standard guages enter the story here as well as the rest of the set up.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
It was not the interurban line itself (or a second line that diverged from it) that provided the tie connection for the neighboring same-wide-gauge interurban line, but rather the system in the large city that once operated lots of PCC cars in local service. There was a broad gauge freight house and team tracks downtown used by both companies.
The other standard gauge interuban did interchange with railroads, and its unusual characteristics related to use of articulated cars, like MIlwaukee's interurbans, and power considerations. IN addition to part of its RofW now seeing modern LRV's, some street trackage that saw its entrance to the named city has now been relaid, and some of the new LRV's for that line are already delivered and are nearby.
One of the interurbans served two urban areas with streetcar systems, but the two streetcar systems were of different gauge. The other interurban served two urban areas with streetcar systems, and the gauge was the same. In addition to modern light rail cars now, tracks (or RofW) of both systems saw PCC cars at one time or another. But one of the local systems never used PCC cars for local service.
The two interurbans were different in gauge. But both provided freight serice and both interchanged with other freight providers. Indeed one of the two interurbans provided the connection betweem two separated divisions of a partner freight provider.
The unusual characteristics were different for the two interurbans. Also, some stretches of track of both interurban lines now see modern light rail use. And a trolley museum uses a small portion of the right of way of one of them, and another trolley museum is located NEAR the right of way of the other.
My question is primarily for interurban fans. In the days of the highpoint of trolley technology (of era one, perhaps we are seeing the start of an era two) there were often several urban communities with the same name in the USA that had streetcars, Portland Maine and Portland Oregon being two examples, and both had at least one interurban line as well. In Oregon, the interurban outlasted the local streetcar system, but in Maine the reverse was true. Name another situation involving to urban areas with the same name, both having local streetcars and an interurban line, with one case being that the interurban quit first and the other being that the local streetcars quit first. In both cases the interurban used tracks of one of the streetcar routes (and there were more than one in both cases) to get downtown. In one case the local streetcars were operated by a different company than the interurban line, the latter not runing local streetcars anywhere, while in the other the interurban line was operated by the same operator as the local streetcars and operated local streetcars elsewhere as well. Both interurbans were truly interurbans and at one time also handled freight, but both had at least two specific characteristics that made them outside the normal practice of most USA interurban lines.
henry6 But a minutia question as I am not that well versed in PRR history: Was the route then Trenton to Belvedere the PRR outright or was it the Belvedere and Delaware RR (thus the nickname the Bel-Del) under the control of the PRR?
But a minutia question as I am not that well versed in PRR history: Was the route then Trenton to Belvedere the PRR outright or was it the Belvedere and Delaware RR (thus the nickname the Bel-Del) under the control of the PRR?
According to the PRR map in the December 1912 Official Guide, the Trenton to Belvedere line was a PRR line.
Don't forget, too, the DL&W took at least a sleeper out of Hoboken to Port Morris and Andover Jct. for the Express.
daveklepper The Federal began operating before 1870. Until the opening of the Poughkeepsie Bridge about 1912, the Federal was on a car ferry boat between the New Haven's Oak Point Borx yard and the PRR yard and car float (still used by Cross Harbor RR for freight) at Greenville. After 1912 until the opening of the Hell Gate Bridge, the Federal ran via the Poughkeespie Bridge and either the L&NE or the L&HR to connect with the PRR. Before 1912 there was also a day train The Coloniel, that used the car float, and this train was reestablished with the HG opening, along with two other through trains, the Patriot and the Senator.
The Federal began operating before 1870. Until the opening of the Poughkeepsie Bridge about 1912, the Federal was on a car ferry boat between the New Haven's Oak Point Borx yard and the PRR yard and car float (still used by Cross Harbor RR for freight) at Greenville. After 1912 until the opening of the Hell Gate Bridge, the Federal ran via the Poughkeespie Bridge and either the L&NE or the L&HR to connect with the PRR. Before 1912 there was also a day train The Coloniel, that used the car float, and this train was reestablished with the HG opening, along with two other through trains, the Patriot and the Senator.
According to the excellent article posted by Wanswheel, through Boston-Washington service began in 1876. Initially, the trains were operated:
PRR Washington-Jersey City
Steamer Maryland Jersey City-Hudson River Station
New Haven Hudson River Station-Boston via Willimantic
At this time the trains were named Boston and Southern Express, and Boston Express. In 1893, the New Haven portion was rerouted via the Shore Line through Providence and the trains became the Federal Express around 1900.
On October 19th, 1912, the Steamer Maryland boat connection was discontinued and the Federal Express was rerouted via Poughkeepsie Bridge using the following:
PRR Washington-Belvedere, NJ via Trenton
Lehigh and Hudson River Belvedere-Maybrook, NY
Central New England RR * Maybrook-Poughkeepsie Bridge
Dutchess County RR * Poughkeepsie Bridge-Hopewell Junction, NY
NY and New England RR * Hopewell Junction-Hawleyville, CT
Housatonic RR * Hawleyville-New Haven
New Haven New Haven-Boston
*=New Haven controlled road
Right before this change of routing occurred, there was an interim operation that lasted at least one day before the bridge route became effective. The PRR Federal Express portion operated between Washington and New York Pennsylvania Station, and an omnibus transfer was utilized between it and Grand Central Terminal where the NH Federal Express portion was operated between New York and Boston. I don't know why this was done for the one day.
While the Poughkeepsie Bridge route put the Federal Express on an all-rail routing, it came at a substantial price. Whereas the previous routing took about 12 hours, the new routing took 17 hours! The new route was 100 miles longer and utilized a mostly single track line between the PRR and NH connections.
This roundabout way between Boston and Washington existed until January 19, 1916, when the Federal Express was discontinued, with no replacement though service offered. The Federal Express reappeared between July 21, 1916 until October 1, 1916 as a once a week service for the summer resort season, going northbound on Fridays and southbound on Sundays. Afterwards, no through service was offered until the opening of Hell Gate Bridge on April 1, 1917.
The other through train on this route, the Colonial Express, was never rerouted via Poughkeepsie Bridge, not operating at all between 1912 and 1917.
The Senator began through Boston-Washington service in 1929, and the Patriot began in 1941.
Dave, you have the next question.
1912 excerpt from Railway Age Gazette "The Steamer Maryland Route" for passengers between Boston and Washington is no more. The New York, New Haven & Hartford last week Friday, following a meeting of the directors of the company in New York City, announced that the transfer of passenger cars across New York harbor would be discontinued that very day. The growing freight traffic on the East and North rivers and the possibilities of danger connected with the increasing number of freight boats, especially the dangers incident to fogs, which may be expected to increase as cold weather comes on, are given as the reason for the action taken. For many years two trains each way have been carried across the harbor daily, one in the night and one in the middle of the day. The company's announcement says that the trains may be run by way of the Poughkeepsie bridge, but no announcement that such an arrangement would actually be made has yet appeared. The Poughkeepsie route is over a hundred miles longer than the one through New York City and a good deal of it is single track and far from being either straight or level. There is no question about the risks of navigation in New York harbor. Slight collisions of car floats, resulting in the submergence of from two to a dozen freight cars, occur every now and then. A boat loaded with cars can make but poor pretensions to being seaworthy, and an accident, even a slight one, to a boat carrying a half dozen passenger cars, occupied by passengers, would be very disturbing. The action of the New Haven directors is probably to be classed as a very commendable locking of the stable door before the horse is stolen. This harbor transfer, however, has been very popular and we do not recall any serious accident to the boats. The distance from the New Haven wharf north of Hell Gate to the Pennsylvania dock at Jersey City is about 12 miles, and for long stretches the current is very swift for many hours each day. These through trains were put on in May, 1876, the month that the Centennial Exposition at Philadelphia was opened, and for the first 15 years of their career, they were run over the "Air Line" and the New York & New England, east of New Haven, the New Haven road at that time having no line of its own east of New London. This transharbor route was established because of the delay and inconvenience of transferring across New York City. In 1876 there was no elevated road, and horse cars, hacks or omnibuses had to be used for the three-mile journey from the Grand Central station to the Hudson River ferry; and then there was the ferry. Now the Pennsylvania terminal is in Manhattan, within less than a mile of the Grand Central, and taxicabs make the transfer in the evening in less than 10 minutes. Passengers southbound can leave Boston at 5:30 p.m., and Washington northbound at 5:35 p.m. and still have a good night's rest over the last half of the journey, and get through in substantially the same time as before.
1912 excerpt from Railway Age Gazette
"The Steamer Maryland Route" for passengers between Boston and Washington is no more. The New York, New Haven & Hartford last week Friday, following a meeting of the directors of the company in New York City, announced that the transfer of passenger cars across New York harbor would be discontinued that very day. The growing freight traffic on the East and North rivers and the possibilities of danger connected with the increasing number of freight boats, especially the dangers incident to fogs, which may be expected to increase as cold weather comes on, are given as the reason for the action taken. For many years two trains each way have been carried across the harbor daily, one in the night and one in the middle of the day. The company's announcement says that the trains may be run by way of the Poughkeepsie bridge, but no announcement that such an arrangement would actually be made has yet appeared. The Poughkeepsie route is over a hundred miles longer than the one through New York City and a good deal of it is single track and far from being either straight or level. There is no question about the risks of navigation in New York harbor. Slight collisions of car floats, resulting in the submergence of from two to a dozen freight cars, occur every now and then. A boat loaded with cars can make but poor pretensions to being seaworthy, and an accident, even a slight one, to a boat carrying a half dozen passenger cars, occupied by passengers, would be very disturbing. The action of the New Haven directors is probably to be classed as a very commendable locking of the stable door before the horse is stolen. This harbor transfer, however, has been very popular and we do not recall any serious accident to the boats. The distance from the New Haven wharf north of Hell Gate to the Pennsylvania dock at Jersey City is about 12 miles, and for long stretches the current is very swift for many hours each day. These through trains were put on in May, 1876, the month that the Centennial Exposition at Philadelphia was opened, and for the first 15 years of their career, they were run over the "Air Line" and the New York & New England, east of New Haven, the New Haven road at that time having no line of its own east of New London. This transharbor route was established because of the delay and inconvenience of transferring across New York City. In 1876 there was no elevated road, and horse cars, hacks or omnibuses had to be used for the three-mile journey from the Grand Central station to the Hudson River ferry; and then there was the ferry. Now the Pennsylvania terminal is in Manhattan, within less than a mile of the Grand Central, and taxicabs make the transfer in the evening in less than 10 minutes. Passengers southbound can leave Boston at 5:30 p.m., and Washington northbound at 5:35 p.m. and still have a good night's rest over the last half of the journey, and get through in substantially the same time as before.
1915 NY Times article http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F10E1FF93B5A12738FDDAE0994D9405B858DF1D3
1915 NY Times article
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F10E1FF93B5A12738FDDAE0994D9405B858DF1D3
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter