The North Carolina Transporation Museum has a lot of former Southern Heavy weight Passenger cars in their fleet. The Great Smokey Railroad have the former Streamline Passenger from SR and N&W in thier fleet. The Lancaster & Chester has help restore a lot of the Passenger equipment in both North and South Carolina and own some Passenger cars in their fleet. South Carolina Railroad museum has some Southern Steamline Passenger equipment. I have help at both North and South Carolina Museum. All the equipment is restored or being restored for return to service.
Southerngreen1401 Southern use the older heavy wieght cars as Jim Crow cars until the late 60s. I have pictures of the cars on the Cresent and other Southern passenger trains. I used the pictures to paint my Southern equipment correctly. I have several different Southern passeger trains in my layout. The only one of the Southern passeenger train I cannot show is the Best Friend of Charleston.
Southern use the older heavy wieght cars as Jim Crow cars until the late 60s. I have pictures of the cars on the Cresent and other Southern passenger trains. I used the pictures to paint my Southern equipment correctly. I have several different Southern passeger trains in my layout. The only one of the Southern passeenger train I cannot show is the Best Friend of Charleston.
Johnny
Southerngreen1401 Southern was the last to join Amtrak. The Cresant ran between Washington and New Orleans with Steam line and Heavy wieght passening cars.
Southern was the last to join Amtrak. The Cresant ran between Washington and New Orleans with Steam line and Heavy wieght passening cars.
ZephyrOverland Deggesty: New question: What was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in scheduled service? Name the railroad, the end cities and the accomodations in the car. I think it was an Atlanta-Brunswick sleeper on the Southern utilizing a 10-1-2 car.
Deggesty: New question: What was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in scheduled service? Name the railroad, the end cities and the accomodations in the car.
New question: What was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in scheduled service? Name the railroad, the end cities and the accomodations in the car.
I think it was an Atlanta-Brunswick sleeper on the Southern utilizing a 10-1-2 car.
As to Paul's mention of the tank car, I took the train from Atlanta to Memphis in May of 1963, and I wondered about the tank car, which was taken off in Birmingham. Dave Morgan, in his account of his and his wife's trip from Brunswick to Atlanta, commented that the tank car contained liquid fertilizer. I wonder now--was it liquid ammonia?
Deggesty New question: What was the last heavy weight sleeper operated in scheduled service? Name the railroad, the end cities and the accomodations in the car.
I remember an article by DPM in TRAINS more than a few years ago about the hunt for the last heavyweight sleeping car line. It was on the SR portion of the remnant of the "Kansas City-Florida Special". DPM also remarked about the tank cars attached to the consist behind the sleeping car.
KCSfan This is just a guess, but IIRC the Soo Line ran heavyweight sleepers until the end of its passenger service. I believe the Winnipeger, which ran northwest from St. Paul, was discontinued in 1967 and probably carried a heavyweight until that time. The Soo-Dominion may have outlasted the Winnipeger, in which case that would be my guess as to the last scheduled heavyweight sleeper operation. Mark
This is just a guess, but IIRC the Soo Line ran heavyweight sleepers until the end of its passenger service. I believe the Winnipeger, which ran northwest from St. Paul, was discontinued in 1967 and probably carried a heavyweight until that time. The Soo-Dominion may have outlasted the Winnipeger, in which case that would be my guess as to the last scheduled heavyweight sleeper operation.
Mark
daveklepper In 1960, the New Haven was operating a 12&1 HEAVYWEIGHT as the "Dollar Saver Sleeper" on the otherwise all-lihgtweight Owl between Boston and New York. The Kansas City Florida Special, Frisco. L&N, ACL, FEC had a heavyweight in the consist that year, but I am unsure if it was regular or just a peak load addiiton.
In 1960, the New Haven was operating a 12&1 HEAVYWEIGHT as the "Dollar Saver Sleeper" on the otherwise all-lihgtweight Owl between Boston and New York. The Kansas City Florida Special, Frisco. L&N, ACL, FEC had a heavyweight in the consist that year, but I am unsure if it was regular or just a peak load addiiton.
Dave, you are a bit early; the car was still being operated in 1965, but not by the Frisco. Also, so far as I know the L&N and ACL never had any part in the operation of the Kansas City-Florida Special. The Frisco did operate the train, and when there were through cars to Miami the FEC carried them in other trains.
How's that for mind reading? I answered Al's question before he posted it--and we are more than a thousand miles apart!
Johnny, does this include Canada as well as the USA? (al)
PS Johnny: I am glad we are TRAINS Friends. I don't know how the new program functions, but pvt mail or e-mail me if you'd like my e-mail address. - a.s.
I should have specified the last heavy weight sleeper line operated in the U. S. A.
Dave Klepper: "1. Parlor car seating: 2 and 1 parlor cars were a post WWII New Haven innovation, and in the full parlor cars, they did not last, but were reatined in the parlor-baggage combines."
Dave, in April of 1970, I rode in two of the 2 and 1 parlor cars, NY-NH and NH to Boston. As I recall these were full parlors and not combines, but I may be mistaken. When I was buying my space in GCT, a lady ahead of me asked for two seats side by side, and I thought she was mistaken--until I boarded for New Haven (hardly anybody else was in the car).
You certainly have done enough to ask the next question:
1. Parlor car seating: 2 and 1 parlor cars were a post WWII New Haven innovation, and in the full parlor cars, they did not last, but were reatined in the parlor-baggage combines. The heavyweight parlors all had regular 1 and 1 parlor seating until they were converted into commuter coaches when the lightweights arrived. I rode a heavyweight parlor Boston - NY behind an I-5 (to New Haven) in 1948, and the coaches were already the 8600 series postwar Pullman built lightweights. No parlor cars per se operatined GCT - Maine. The night train each way, was the State of Maine, as you noted, with through Pullman cars to both Concord and Bangor, the latter via the Maine Central, Faced with greatly increased travel demand on the route during WWII, the B&M and NYNH&H simply innaugurated "The Day Express" using the State of Maine equipment in reverse moves, so each set made one round trip each day instead of one round trip every two days. Space in the sleeping cars, set up for daytime operation, was sold as parlor car space, maximum of two people to each section, with first come sitting forward. Rooms were were sold at the regular day drawing room rate as drawing rooms on parlor cars were sold. I think yes but am unsure about the through cars to Cocord and Bangor on The Day Express. Whe I rode the Day Express in was in a camp special coach, one of four on the train, all of which did get switched at Lowell and ran reverse to Concrd, IU think with a regular sleeper as well. I rode the Concrod sleeper on The State... many times, sometimes in a camp special sleeper, but also in the regular sleeper. Never rode through to Bangor, but did to Portland on "The State..."
.The Day Express ran via Putnam, a shorter route, less total travel time, and allowing more time for the quick turn around at each end. Providence was on the traditional State of Maine route, and stayed that way through WWII. In the very last years, the The State... was actually combined with "The Owl" from Boston (2AM departure) south of Providence. The Day Express was dropped from the timetable shortlyi after the end of WWII when riding began dropping.
If there are other gaps not completely answered, I'll provide the information. Meanwhile, I do look forward to the next question/
Next question(s): During WWII there were two through trains between Portland, ME, and Grand Central Terminal, New York City.
They did not go through Boston but through Worcester (the spelling accepted by its residents).
2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference? One went via Putnam, leaving the NH main at New London; the other went via Providence, thence over what was, and is again, the P&W.
3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical? Operated by Pullman and not NH? Two and one seating (which, I believe, was standard on the NH)?
4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains? State of Maine had a NY-Concord, N. H. Sleeper. I am not sure about the other train, since I do not have a WWII Guide that shows the service.
5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points. I have no idea.
6. Today, which railroads own the tracks that these trains used? Again, be specific as to the junciton points. (As far as I know, all is still in service, some possibly freight only.)
Metro North to New Haven, Amtrak to Providence, P&W to Worcester, Guilford to Portland and Concord (the Concord car was switched at Lowell).
ZephyrOverland wrote on 9/2: "As mentioned in another post, there was through Chicago-Vancouver service via Soo and CP and the Mountaineer and the Soo-Dominion."
There was also a through Chicago-Vancouver sleeper in 1930 that ran over the C&NW (Duluth-Superior Limite) to Duluth, and over the DW&P to Fort Frances, where the CN picked it up on the Continental Limited.
narig01 What about the Canadian connections? I recall somewhere that there were connections from Chicago to the Western Canadian provinces. Where there any that continued thru to Seattle?
What about the Canadian connections? I recall somewhere that there were connections from Chicago to the Western Canadian provinces. Where there any that continued thru to Seattle?
As mentioned in another post, there was through Chicago-Vancouver service via Soo and CP and the Mountaineer and the Soo-Dominion. Soo/CP also operated through service to Seattle but only to/from St. Paul. That train was called the Pacific Coast Express and was operated in the years before WWI via Soo to Portal, CP to Sumas, WA and NP to Seattle. Soo/CP also operated through St. Paul-Portland service, the Soo Spokane-Portland Train de Luxe. This train ran St. Paul-Portal via the Soo, Portal-Kingsport via CP, Spokane International Railway Kingsport-Spokane and Oregon RR and Navigation Spokane-Portland.
Another interesting note: in the 1900-1910 timeframe, the North Coast Limited was operated as a St. Paul-Portland train that ran via Seattle. When the train was extended to operate to/from Chicago via the C&NW, the western endpoint became Seattle.
Can you do a little more research and name the two trains? Both trains did run via Worcester and Ayer and you are correct about the UNION FRIEGHT RAILROAD, also the Grand Junction would not have been of much use either. But south of Worcester the differences existed.
The New Haven 4-6-4 streamlined steam were I-5's, not I-9's. Yes Alco DL-109's were possible, probably not I-5's which mainly were in Boston only service, but rather the excellent I-4 Pacifics which were the last New Haven revenue steam locomotives in service. Some engineers prefered them to the Hudsons. South of New Haven, of course either EP2 - -2-6-2+2-6-2, EP3 - 4-6-6-4. or EP4 4-6-6-4. The EF-3 4-6-6-4 would not be used because it could not runto GCT. North of Worcester, B&M Pacifics of various types, including ex-DL&W, sold to the B&M when the DL&W got its Hudsons..
Unless someone else comes up with the train names, the reason for departure from usual parlor car equipment, and the exact routes south of Worcester, you will have the right to ask the next question/ But give it a try.
Deggesty daveklepper: Next question(s): During WWII there were two through trains between Portland, ME, and Grand Central Terminal, New York City. 1. How did both trains get around the lack of a North Station - South Station Boston passenger train connection? 2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference? 3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical? 4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains? 5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points. 6. Today, which railroads own the tracks that these trains used? Again, be specific as to the junciton points. (As far as I know, all is still in service, some possibly freight only.)
daveklepper: Next question(s): During WWII there were two through trains between Portland, ME, and Grand Central Terminal, New York City. 1. How did both trains get around the lack of a North Station - South Station Boston passenger train connection? 2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference? 3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical? 4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains? 5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points. 6. Today, which railroads own the tracks that these trains used? Again, be specific as to the junciton points. (As far as I know, all is still in service, some possibly freight only.)
1. How did both trains get around the lack of a North Station - South Station Boston passenger train connection?
2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference?
3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical?
4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains?
5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points.
1. How did the trains get around the lack of a connection in Boston?
Somewhere I read that thru service was to Maine was thru Worchester. Also I think Ayers, Ma
2. The different routings. New Haven, Hartford, Springfield, Ma to Worcester.
New Haven , Providence, RI to Worchester
3 & 4. Someone else will have to answer.
5. DL 109's New Haven Providence Worchester also I-9's(??) (a 4-6-4)
The New Haven , Hartford Springfield to Worcester I will confess absolute ignorance.
6. Current Railroads. New Haven Providence to Worcester Amtrak.
New Haven Springfield Amtrak Springfield Worcester CSX. P&W may own some small segments.
These are all connections to Ayer, Ma Ayer , Ma north Pan Am Ry (formeley Guilford)
I know someone will do a lot better on this than I.
The interesting thing is that there is a connection from South Station to North Station. The Union Connecting RR. Everything I've read about this RR is that it was freight only and never ran passenger trains. Understandable as I think it had a lot of street running.
Thx IGN
the b&o
daveklepper The question of through service in LA was answered by you and also by a posting on the TRAINS general discussion forum about the "continiuation track" in the LAUPT throat layout that was there specifically to allow run arounds and switching for through trains at the stub-end terminal. So, I would say possibly there was a Seattle - Chicago through sleeper at one time or another, The via Portland car was the Pullman that arrived at Seattle at one station and left at another. The reason? There was pool service between Seattle and Portland. When I rode, there were three trains each way each day, spaced conveniently throughout the day. One was GN, one was NP, and one was UP. Tickets were interchangeable. So the through Pullman via Portland went one way via UP and the other way via GN or NP. Even pretty late, without a through Chicago car, there were through Seattle - SF and Seattle - LA cars that were handled this way. The GM Train of Tomorrow was one of the pool trains for a while, I think UP, but I am not sure. The Seattle cars to SF (Oakland) and LA were handled on SP's Cascade, but I am unsure whether the LA car went via San Jose or down the Valley south of Oakland. Do I make up for the real mistake of forgetting that the Olympian Hiawatha ran through Seattle to Tacoma? Next question(s): During WWII there were two through trains between Portland, ME, and Grand Central Terminal, New York City. 1. How did both trains get around the lack of a North Station - South Station Boston passenger train connection? 2. The two trains differed slightly in routing. What was the difference? 3. What kind of parlor car space, 1st class space, was sold on one of the two trains and why was this different from what is more typical? 4. What other northern endpoints were served by through cars on each of the two trains? 5. What kind of locomotives (and whose) were regularly used on these trains? Be specific as to engine change points. 6. Today, which railroads own the tracks that these trains used? Again, be specific as to the junciton points. (As far as I know, all is still in service, some possibly freight only.)
The question of through service in LA was answered by you and also by a posting on the TRAINS general discussion forum about the "continiuation track" in the LAUPT throat layout that was there specifically to allow run arounds and switching for through trains at the stub-end terminal. So, I would say possibly there was a Seattle - Chicago through sleeper at one time or another, The via Portland car was the Pullman that arrived at Seattle at one station and left at another. The reason? There was pool service between Seattle and Portland. When I rode, there were three trains each way each day, spaced conveniently throughout the day. One was GN, one was NP, and one was UP. Tickets were interchangeable. So the through Pullman via Portland went one way via UP and the other way via GN or NP. Even pretty late, without a through Chicago car, there were through Seattle - SF and Seattle - LA cars that were handled this way. The GM Train of Tomorrow was one of the pool trains for a while, I think UP, but I am not sure. The Seattle cars to SF (Oakland) and LA were handled on SP's Cascade, but I am unsure whether the LA car went via San Jose or down the Valley south of Oakland.
Do I make up for the real mistake of forgetting that the Olympian Hiawatha ran through Seattle to Tacoma?
First, I was asking about the sleeper carried on the City of Portland. Yes, it went up to Seattle on the UP's train, which used The Train of Tomorrow's equipment, and went into Union Station (UP & MILW), and came back to Portland, from King Street (NP & GN) on Pool 408, which was operated by NP (you can tell which road actually operated a day train by seeing which road operated the parlor car).
None of the old Guides I have (1893, 1916, 1930, many from 1937 on) shows any Chicago-Seattle service via Los Angeles. There was, at least in 1930, a Portland-Chicago sleeper via Klamath Falls and the Modoc route. As to through service Seattle-LA, the 1930 Guide shows such on the West Coast, going through Sacramento and the San Joaquin Valley. It is possible that through service did exist via the Coast Line, but I do not know of any prior to Amtrak's service. Incidentally, in both 1916 and 1930, there were through sleeper between Chicago and LA via Oakland using both Coast Line and San Joaquin Valley line.
Yes, Dave, you have covered your track quite well by explaining the use of the different stations in Seattle.
Dae, I should added that you have earned the privilege of asking the next question (despite your though about the Milwaukee).
Dave Klepper: "....I believe in 1950 The Portland Rose and the City of Portland would have such through sleeprs, then obviously the North Coast Limited, the Mainstreeter. the Olympian Hiawatha, the Empire Builder, the Western Star. I am fairly certain that no such car ran via the AT&SF, or via the Cal Zephyr, but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route..
By 1958 the list had shrunk to just the five through trains listed after "obviously.""
Dave, the UP had no sleepers with the endpoints of Chicago and Seattle in February of 1950. Incidentally, after the City of Portland was inaugurated the Portland Rose became a Kansas City-Portland train (no connections to/from Chicago).
Nor did the Olympian Hiawatha have any sleepers with the same endpoints–Seattle was a waystation between Chicago and Tacoma on the Milwaukee Road.
The Mainstreeter did not exist in 1950; the then secondary train, the Alaskan, did not have an sleepers except St. Paul-Mandan and Billings-Spokane.
Also, the name, Western Star, did not exist in 1950–but the Oriental Limited did have the desired cars. And–the two GN trains had somewhat different routings; the Builder went through New Rockford, and the Limited went through Grand Forks.
Absolutely the, SFe and the Cal Zephyr had none. (When the GN’s line down to Bieber, connecting with the WP, was constructed, there was thought of running a San Francisco section of the premier GN train that way.) Also, the SP contributed in no way to Chicago-Seattle service.
So, you named the three trains (each with different routings) for 1950; should I gig you one for saying that the Olympian Hiawatha began and ended in Seattle?
Now, as to 1958, the Mainstreeter (via Helena) and the North Coast Limited (via Butte), the Empire Builder (same routing), the Western Star (same routing except that for a time, it ran via Great Falls as well), AND the City of Portland! carried Chicago-Seattle cars, for a total of five trains–all running different routings.
Just think! in a time that train service was being reduced, two more trains carried Chicago-Seattle cars.
Another (no points) question: wb, the car carried through Portland arrived in Seattle at Union Station and left from King Street Station. Why?
IGN: "What about the Canadian connections? I recall somewhere that there were connections from Chicago to the Western Canadian provinces. Where there any that continued thru to Seattle?"
I know of none from Chicago, except possibly about 100 years ago. There was through, especially summer, service Chicago-Vancouver before and after WWII.
For many years, the Sunset Limited was a New Orleans-San Francisco train by way of Los Angeles
daveklepper" but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route.. By 1958 the list had shrunk to just the five through trains listed after "obviously."
" but one may have run via Golden State Limited (RI - SP) and various SP trains north of LA via San Jose, Oakland, and Sacramento --or perpahs via the San J. V., but NOT the inland route, just the Cascade route..
By 1958 the list had shrunk to just the five through trains listed after "obviously."
Someone stated in one of these threads that for some reason the SP did not really have thru service thru Los Angeles for some reason. So I would kind of doubt that the Golden State Limited had thru sleepers.
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