daveklepper Bridgeton and Harrison Maine 2-footer, last operating between Saco Junction (connection with the B&M standard gauge) and Harrison, The track from Harrison to Bridgeton had been abandoned earlier. I believe the final abandonment was in 1940 or 1941.
Bridgeton and Harrison Maine 2-footer, last operating between Saco Junction (connection with the B&M standard gauge) and Harrison, The track from Harrison to Bridgeton had been abandoned earlier. I believe the final abandonment was in 1940 or 1941.
Dave, you're warm. It was a Maine 2' gauge road but not the Bridgeton and Harrison. The one I have in mind remained in operation for a few years past 1941.
Mark
Or, if you want to be more exact, the various narrow gauge non-3-foot streetcar operations. There were several, but I would have to do research to find out which they were and which was last, after WWII.
On to the next question. Other than 3' roads what was the last narrow gauge railroad to operate as a common carrier in the US? When did it cease operating and between what towns did it once run?
Henry, the Pullman car at Oil City in 1905 was on trains #5 and #6.
http://books.google.com/books?id=nfTRqosciAsC&pg=PA163&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&q=&sig=ACfU3U01Rmuc3lPt3vLRlJFdc8ZvRn_y-Q
Mike
I will not say that Peter Maiken's Night Train is definitive, but he mentions only Meadville and Bradford as Erie sleeper destinations.
There were parlor cars Pittsburgh-Cleveland, but P&LE handled them into/out of Pittsburgh.
As to my answer concerning PRR crews taking trains into Penn Station, I considered it the answer to be the answer to only one question: Why PRR engine crews and other roads' train crews?
Johnny
OK so you sent me to a photo copy of an 1892 table that has nothing about equipment...I may be missing some pages....and an August 1905 table which says nothing about the routes we've discussed! However in our defense, there are indications of Pullman Parlor Car and Pullman Buffet Parlor cars to such places as Susquehanna and Scranton, and NY points including most major stops from Port Jervis to Jamestown and Buffalo in addition to intermediate stops through Ohio and Indianna enroute to Chicago. Another note shows sleeping and parlor cars in several tables into the 50's Cleveland, O to Pittsburg, PA but those would have been P&LE east of Youngstown.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 Howver once I believe I saw a sleeper listed for Oil City, too, just can't find it now.
Howver once I believe I saw a sleeper listed for Oil City, too, just can't find it now.
Henry,
You previously mentioned there were two others in addition to Bradford and Meadville. I was going to guess they were Scranton and either Lawrenceville or Blossburg on the branch from Corning. Since you mentioned it, I too have in the back of my mind that there was a sleeper from Oil City a long time ago (cira 1900-1920's). I don't have a question in mind yet but will post one by tonight.
Mark...I am going to give it you. My Julu 1937 Guide and several eartly 50's era timetables show NY to Meadville and NY to Bradford. A 1958 Guide indicates a Chicago to Meadville sleeper. All other timetables (1941, 1931) are similar. Howver once I believe I saw a sleeper listed for Oil City, too, just can't find it now.
We await your quizzing!
Erie, PA was not an Erie on line city but was reached by a PRR branch from Corry and I don't believe there was any through line passenger connections of any kind. Bradford and Meadville are two of the four I am familiar with...
Erie , PA, at one time via a branch line, I believe. But that is only one addition.
henry6 Thanks, Johnny...and let me qualify my question to: What ON LINE Pennsylvania cities were terminal destinations for Erie Pullman and Sleeper service?
Thanks, Johnny...and let me qualify my question to: What ON LINE Pennsylvania cities were terminal destinations for Erie Pullman and Sleeper service?
The only two that I am aware of were Bradford and Meadville though I wouldn't be at all surprised if there weren't others at one time.
henry6 I haven't asked a question in a long time, so, please, with your permission Johnny, may I this time? Thank S. Alright...what Pennsylvania cities were terminal destinations for Erie Pullman service?
I haven't asked a question in a long time, so, please, with your permission Johnny, may I this time?
Thank S. Alright...what Pennsylvania cities were terminal destinations for Erie Pullman service?
You are right Dave. I misread a caption in the book and should have known better because electrification did not reach Brewser until the early 80's...84 I believe.
I was a regular reverse commuter on the Harlem Division 1971-1996 and I can assure you no straight electric locomotive handled passenger trains north to Brewster North (now "Southwest"). The P's, T's and S's were all gone by the time the electrification was extended to Brewster North, and the only locomotive hauled trains (2 each way during rush hour) that ran through to Dover Plains were all hauled by FL-9's. The other service north of Brewster North was handled first by RDC's, then by the Budd SPV's, and then by push-pull FL-9 trail coach cab coach combinations. Possibly an electric freight locomotive went north to Brewster North, but that would have been at night when I wasn't aware. Except for the two through trains during rush hours, all service to Brewster North was by MU trains. By that time the Poughkeepsie and Peekskill trains of the Hudson Divison were all powered by FL-9's also. Check the date of the electrification and the retirement dates of the NYC's passenger electrics. The last of these were two T's equipped with LIRR shoes and used in the PRR and LIRR tunnels on the Penn Station wire train, replacing the old DD-1's.
Emergy snow engine changes occured on the PRR at Newark and at Philadelphia. Now of course Amtrak changes engines at Phila on NY -Pittsburgh trains, but hopefully that will be moved to Harrisburg when they get their new electric locomotives.
Based on contemporary public timetables, Williams Bridge is first station below Woodlawn and Wakefield next. According to pictures in the book THE COMING OF THE NEW YORK AND HARLMEM Brewster hosted electric locomotives in addition to MU's. Wheter there was an engine change to go north is not indicated in the pics and I haven't read the book in over 10 years. Yes, Mt. Vernon predates White Plains/White Plains North for engine changes. I lumped Harold and Sunnyside together in my mind thinking of Harold only as a LIRR tower just out of the tunnel.
Henry6 and JOhnny have gotten most of the right answers, and I leave it between them as to who should ask the next question. As far as I remember, the facts are these:
While some NYC and possibly NYNH&H trains changed engines at Mott Haven, this was during an experimental period when some steam still ran through to Grand Central Station (or Depot) as GCT had yet to be built. The full initial NYC eletrification went to Mount Vernon and HIgh Bridge, where there were engine and yard facilities. For a few years NH trains changed to NYC electrics one stop south of Woodlawn, I think Wakefield, but possibly Williams Bridge, with NH steam running light to the facilities and New Rochelle, which was the first set of NH's electrification, extended to Stamford within a year, and the 600V DC N. Cannan Branch converted to 11000V AC. New Haven was reached within eight years later,. No passenger trains changed at Ceder Hall, and NH freights did not run into Manhattan as trains. (car float) Waterbury trains continued to change at Stamford, not Bridgport, but Danbury was a change point for Pittfield trains. Brewster was actually never an engine change point. By the time the electrification went to Brewster North, all service was with mu cars. Wassaic throughs service used and uses dual-mode, and there are no engine changes today for commuter trains into GCT. Croton Harmon and White Plains North were the northenmost nyc CHANGE POINTS.
NY Connecting opened with steam, DD-1's ran through from Harold Tower near Sunnyside to Manhattan Transfer, and probably had PRR engine crews. This continued when the NYNH&H electrification reached Harold Tower for four years utill the PRR filled in the gap between Trenton and Sunnyside/Harold Tower, Queens.
Jamaica was the ONLY regular engine change point on the LIRR.
Baltimiore was a PRR change point for trains from DC, not NY, going West via Harrisburg.
Wilmington was the first change point for AC trains running south from NYC and still served for the Cape Charles trains after the DC electrification.
A couple locations come to mind. On the NH, New Rochelle. On the NYC Hudson Line, Marble HIll. But on the Halrem/NH line a site near Williams Bridge/Woodlawn was also possible. However, looking at the boot THE COMING OF THE NEW YORK AND HARLEM, Brewster and White Plains North were the two engine change points for the NYC for sure, and on the NH Stamford, Bridgeport, New Haven, and Danbury plus New Rochelle (based on Dave's hint). The NYC Hudson Line was Croton-Harmon but Marble Hill is where the Put terminated at one time...again I am scanning almost a hundred years here...Mott Haven being a yard serviced by electic engines if all pictures I've seen are correct. The Long Island stronghold is Jamaica but I wonder about the Port Washington branch trains, if they were converted to electric all at once or if they had to change power at Sunnyside...another point the NH might have used too, but Dave's hint indicates not. The ony two Manhatten stations we are concerned with are GCT and Penn...the west side line of the NYC did use diesel but not a passenger line. I do not recall seeing third rail along that line in any pictures or my own viewings. On the PRR, Waverly and Hudson were freight points and I should not have considered them for passenger engine change, the only Meadows change point then was Manhatten Transfer; Newark if needed, but mostly Hunter Tower for the LV, then Rahway (if indeed), South Amboy (until Matawan cut in and now Long Branch), and Trenton, Philadelphia, Wilmington, D.C., and Harrisburg as logical points. I think I've covered all railroads into and out of Manhatten, and all logical points. But I do have a feeling I am missing something.
Johnny's state is correct. As far as I know engines were not changed at Mott Haven. Somone should come up with the correct answer as to the first NYC and NYNH&H points. The NYNH&H, like the NYC built out of NYCity to to it. Except in the case of the NYand Connecting Railroad.
I believe what I and others have posted pretty well covered "entering Manhatten". Any PRR train originateing off the electrified lines would be a candidate but probably ran steam or diesel to places like Philadelphia, South Amboy, Newark, Manhatten Transfer, Trenton, and Rahway (which I'm not sure of myself; they did and NJT does, turn back trains there, it indeed might have been change point before South Amboy; Matawan of course, was a later extenssion of the wires, and now Long Branch). Any train to the south of course would get a GG1 at D.C.; So Balitmore and Wilmington might also have been a power change point. As for the NY, NH & H. I can't remember if they built out of NY or if they built into NY. Mott Haven was the first electric change for NYC/NH but was of course extended up the Hudson to Harmon and the NY and Harlem to North White Plains (Brewster came on closer to the 60's). I suppose the NH could also have changed at Sunnyside before ducking under the East River, too, although I always remembered wire across the Hell Gate Bridge. Part of the questions is open ended in that you did not specify a date, so Manhatten Transfer on the PRR could be arguable from a post 1930 point of view.
daveklepper Interesting facts were that NYNH&H ran into both GCT and Penn with its own complete crews, but for a time, the NYNH&H did run into Penn with traincrews but LIRR or PRR engine crews. Maybe somebody knows which and why. Similarly, the LV ran into Penn with its own train crews but PRR engine crews. The B&O probablyd did likewise during WWI.
Interesting facts were that NYNH&H ran into both GCT and Penn with its own complete crews, but for a time, the NYNH&H did run into Penn with traincrews but LIRR or PRR engine crews. Maybe somebody knows which and why. Similarly, the LV ran into Penn with its own train crews but PRR engine crews. The B&O probablyd did likewise during WWI.
I was referring to passenger trains only, and had not included Ceder Hill. I also made the mistake of using the words "serving Manhattan" when should have said passsenger service directly to Manhattan, since many other railroads also served Manhattan, CV via cargo steamship, CRRof NJ, Reading, Erie, DL&W via passenger ferry boats and car floats. There are no more LIRR or LV change points to list, but history can tell you a few more for NYC, PRR, and NYNH&H. Note what the original electrifcations from NY were/ Also there is one that continued well after WWII that was not noted for PRR, as well as some others. I did not know about Rahway. My impression was that electrification to South Amboy occured at the same time as the gap between Sunnyside/Harold Tower/Queens, and Trenton was filled.
Where was the original terminal of the NYNH&H electrification? Of the NYC electrification (2)? Mott Haven and Yonkers are not correct. The electrification has yet to reach Peekskill! However, MU's did run to Peekskill, pulled by Pacific's with oversize generators for car heating and lights north of Harmon. I think a few J-1's may also have been equipped for this service. None ran past Peekskill to Poukeepsie, still the end of suburban service. Those trains changed at Harmon. Right now all service is with dual-power locomoties, as pioneered by FL-9's transferred from the New Haven Line.
I presume you are including all the roads mentioned so try these on for size:
PRR: South Amboy, Matawan, Newark (also for B&O), Manhatten Transfer; Harrisburg, Waverly Yd, Hudson Tower (Meadows Yard)
LV: Hunter Tower;
NYC: Harmon, Mott Haven, White Plaines N., Peekskill, Brewster, Yonkers
LIRR: Jamaica
NH: Stamford, Danbury, New Haven, Cedar HIll, Bridgeport
I will start the count with these places:
New Haven CT
White Plains NY
Croton-Harmon NY
Jamaica NY
Manhattan Transfer NJ
Newark NJ
Rahway NJ
South Amboy NJ
Harrisburg PA
Washington DC
Five railroads reguarly operated directly into Manhattan: NYC, NYNH&H, LIRR, PRR, and LV. Plus the B&O during WWI. The NYNH&H was unique in serving both Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal. There were 19 regular engine change points used at one time or another for trains from to NY City to change from electric to diesel power. Plus two used only in emergencies, emergencies of a particular kind.
Anyone who can name at least 15 of the engine change points and describe in general the years of their use, can try to provide answers to:
Name all the regular change points and the two emergency change points.
What kind of emergency?
What were still used during WWII?
What are in use today?
Dual power locomotives are not included, since often the changeover was, is, and will be under the engineers discretion.
Dave,
The route which I had in mind was Dayton - Indianapolis - Ft. Wayne (via Kokomo) a total distance 259 miles. I was not aware of the routing you describe that was necessitated by the strike; the distances of which follow: Muncie to Ft. Wayne - 66 mi., Ft. Wayne to Indianapolis (via Peru and Kokomo) - 135 mi., and Indianapolis to Seymour - 62 mi. for a total of 263 mi.
You are the winner and get to ask another question.
Actually, the longest route would have been during the 1936-1937 Indiana Railroad Analgamated Union Anderson Power House and local transit strike. The interurban engineers and trainmen were not members. The interurban was shut down for lack of power west of Cambridge to New Castle and Indianapolis on the Richmond and Dayton line, and from Muncie through Anderson to Indianapolis on the Fort Wayne - Indianapolis main line. So IR sold Muncie to Indianapolis and Louisville tickets that were honored by going north to Fort Wayne, west to Peru, then south to Indianapolis, and then one could continue in regular fashion to Seymour and Louisville! This was the longest single-ticket single-railroad issued ticket interurban ride possibe ever in North America/
One ticket would do it. You would change at Fort Wayne. Through cars were operated via Peru from Fort Wayne to Indianapolis. Then you would change at Indianapolis.
Here's a hint. A significant portion of the IR's freight traffic was interchanged with another interurban at one of the end points of the route.
wanswheel Garrett to Louisville on Indiana Railroad?
Garrett to Louisville on Indiana Railroad?
Right railroad, wromg route. Neither Garrett nor Louisville were the end points.
Garret tp Fort Wayne was never part of the Indiana Railroad. While you would not need an interline ticket after 1930 to ride from Garret to Lousville, the line from Fort Wayne to Garret was still owned by the power company, and Indian Railroad was contracted to operate the line for them. Indiana Railroad did not even lease the line, but operated the line under contract. The same situation occured between Seymore and Louisville, or at least Seymore and New Albany, with Indiana Raiilroad having trackage rights over the NYC system "Big Four" bridge to Lousiville and possibly part owner of the dual-ague tracks in Louisville. (The Lousville system was broad age, and the railroad bridge was also dual gauge, with the "Daisey Line" interurban also broad gauge and also using the bridge.) But yes you could ride from Garet to Lousville on one interurban railroad's ticket, with mandatory changds at both Fort Wayne and Indianapolis. Some freight equpment occasionally ran through!
But the TRACKS from Garreet to Louisville were not one railroad. Possibly four.
An error. Somewhere I wrote that the Dayton and Western owned the Springfield streetcar system. They never did. Nor did the C%LE. It was owned by the Terra Haut Indiana and Eastern, which ran from Terra Haut through Indianapolis to Springfiled. With the THI&E, it became part of the Indiana Railroad in 1931. The Indiana Railroad continued operation of the Springfield streetcars after the interurban was abandoned in 1936-1937. It converted the system to buses in 1938 and continued Indiana Railroad operaton of the local bus system until 1948. It was a profitable bus operation during WWII.
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