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Posted by timz on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 12:16 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR
According to Amtrak facts Amtrak carried more than three times as many riders between Washington, D.C., and New York City as all of the airlines combined

Did Amtrak claim to carry three times the airline passengers, NY to Washington? Or did they say total Amtrak passengers between NY and Washington (inckuding NY-Phila etc) were three times the airline total?

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 12:47 PM

243129

 

 
Backshop

 

 
243129

 

 
VOLKER LANDWEHR
High-speed started with rebulding of old routes to 125 mph standard.

 

And no curves were eliminated or realigned to accommodate the higher speed?

 

 

 

Nobody ever said there weren't.  Just that it didn't happen right after the war, and didn't have anything to do with the Marshall Plan, like that idiot editorial writer said.

 

 

 

 

So can you offer any proof to dispute what "that idiot editorial writer said"?

 

Volker clearly laid out the timeline.  I suggest you read it.  You obviously have never ridden the DB or you would know there are to this day very curvy lines not only in urban areas.  But you seem unwilling to accept factual information from others who are knowledgable, which is the trademark of a troller.  

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 1:17 PM

timz
Did Amtrak claim to carry three times the airline passengers, NY to Washington? Or did they say total Amtrak passengers between NY and Washington (inckuding NY-Phila etc) were three times the airline total?

Here is the quote from Amtrak's national facts website:
When included among U.S. airlines, Amtrak ranks No. 5 in domestic passengers carried.* In the Northeast Corridor (NEC), Amtrak has a very strong position in many markets that were previously dominated by air carriers. *Based on FY 2016 data; FY 2017 data forthcoming.

  • Amtrak carried more than three times as many riders between Washington, D.C., and New York City as all of the airlines combined.
  • Amtrak carried more riders between New York City and Boston than all of the airlines combined.

https://www.amtrak.com/national-facts

It is directly beneath the first table with 25 busiest bus stations.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 2:16 PM

timz
Did Amtrak claim to carry three times the airline passengers, NY to Washington? Or did they say total Amtrak passengers between NY and Washington (inckuding NY-Phila etc) were three times the airline total?

This is an interesting question.  The exact wording from Volker's source is

When included among U.S. airlines, Amtrak ranks No. 5 in domestic passengers carried.* In the Northeast Corridor (NEC), Amtrak has a very strong position in many markets that were previously dominated by air carriers. *Based on FY 2016 data; FY 2017 data forthcoming.
  • Amtrak carried more than three times as many riders between Washington, D.C., and New York City as all of the airlines combined.
  • Amtrak carried more riders between New York City and Boston than all of the airlines combined.

I do take that to mean just the Washington-to-NYC through passengers and NYC-to-Boston passengers respectively, but it would not involve prohibitively greater research to get the data for all the intermediate destination-pairs, for airlines and Amtrak, and sum them up.  I strongly suspect there is little current demand for commuter flights from NYC to Philadelphia or Wilmington when the train service is fast, frequent, and comfortable.

What that leaves out is the percentage of intermediate traffic served by SEPTA south of Philadelphia and MARC Penn Line north of Washington.  In this respect, it might be particularly interesting to see the effect of closing the 'gap' between the Penn Line commuter service out of Washington and the SEPTA service out of Philadelphia south, which might produce the analogue of the joint NJT/SEPTA service between New York and Philadelphia that is considerably cheaper, if less comfortable, than Amtrak's.  At present there is not even a dedicated shuttle service between the two districts, and therefore a considerable premium on the price Amtrak charges per mile between the service endpoints.

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 4:20 PM

243129

 

 
VOLKER LANDWEHR
There might have been isolated curves were for other reasons necessary realignments led to higher allowed speeds

 

This is your 'disclaimer'.

 

That isn't a disclaimer. I'm not old enough to have been there and the German rail system is too large for anybody to know of all curves which were changed directly after WWII. It would be scientifically untrustworthy to claim just that.

What can be said is that high-speed rail wasn't on the agenda at that time.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 4:45 PM

243129
Volker speaks only of Germany and insists no curves were eliminated under the Marshall Plan. He has offered no conclusive proof.

I can only speak for Germany, I know nothing about Japanese railways. Sorry, you should read my posts regarding curve changes. The curves that were changed under the Marshall Plan were not changed with an eye on high-speed rail traffic.

Proof, to change a saying, is in the eye the beholder. For me and others here it seems to be enough proof. You are not convinced? So what?

But that same person expects that others take his word as proof for deficits at Amtrak.
Regards, Volker

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 5:01 PM

243129
I stand by my statement concerning European and Japanese railways and have seen nothing tangible to dispute it.

Sorry for the second post but I can't edit my posts currently.

Here is a report about HSR in Germany from the Texas Department of Transportation's server: https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/rail/high_speed/system-summaries/germany.pdf

Quote: Beginning in the 1970s, German federal transportation plans called for high-speed rail lines in response to increasing congestion levels on the existing rail network and to make rail competitive with other modes.

Not a proof, just another information.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by PJS1 on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 5:46 PM

Here is a way to use statistics to make yourself look good by focusing on just a select part of the picture. 

Amtrak carries more passengers between New York City and Washington, D.C. than the airlines.  Don't talk about buses and cars, which are a big piece of the picture.  

BTW, there are 39 flights a day between Philadelphia and Boston, as an example.  Flying time is a tad over 1 hour, 10 minutes.  Fares begin around $66.  The airlines have given up on the Philadelphia to New York and Philadelphia to DC markets because the distances are better left to Amtrak and buses.  

Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 5:52 PM

Although it will not happen for years if the NYP - BOS times equaled the NYP - WASH times how many persons would take Amtrak ? That might also rob the PHL - BOS route from airlines ?

 

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Posted by 243129 on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 6:45 PM

charlie hebdo
Volker clearly laid out the timeline. I suggest you read it. You obviously have never ridden the DB or you would know there are to this day very curvy lines not only in urban areas. But you seem unwilling to accept factual information from others who are knowledgable, which is the trademark of a troller.

Other than referring to me as a "troller" do you have anything at all of substance to contribute besides "Volker said'?

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Posted by 243129 on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 6:57 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR
So once again, the railway was rebuilt on the old alignment with the old parameters wherever possible. Changes were not made for higher speeds.

in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways,

VOLKER LANDWEHR
Changes were not made for higher speeds.

Show proof of that.

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Posted by PJS1 on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 8:19 PM

blue streak 1

Although it will not happen for years if the NYP - BOS times equaled the NYP - WASH times how many persons would take Amtrak ? That might also rob the PHL - BOS route from airlines ?  

Maybe robbing the airlines is not the right target.  Maybe it is people who would take a bus or drive.  

Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 10:14 PM

Airline travel on the NEC is inconvient for all that use it.  National is across the Potomac in Virginia and it must be traveled to by anyone conducting business in downtown DC - Metro, taxi/Uber, Private automobile (and additional time and money to park it).  Don't forget to allow a hour or more to pass through Security.  Dulles is the same except Metro is not a option and it is about one hour from downtown DC.

The airports for New York are not downtown either and require transportation options to get to or from them.  The same with Logan in Boston.

Amtrak services downtown DC to downtown NYC to downtown Boston.  For the business traveler it is basically goes from where he his to where he wants to be.

Since heightened airport security entered the picture air is not the prime choice for business travel along the NEC.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 4, 2018 8:27 AM

243129
Volker speaks only of Germany and insists no curves were eliminated under the Marshall Plan. He has offered no conclusive proof.

One last try.

Initially, the Allies had not planned a reconstruction of Germany. The American military government was to follow Directive JCS 1067 after Germany’s capitulation.
Until 1948 all occupation zones followed this plan, so that the reconstruction of German industry was also hindered by the policy of all victorious powers. This only changed with the "European Recovery Program" 2, the so-called Marshal Plan - which offered financial resources and economic cooperation to all European countries in East and West. The $ 12.4 billion program came into force on April 3, 1948.
 

Here are some quotes from the document:

PART II
Economic General Objectives and Methods of Control

16. You will assure that the German economy is administered and controlled in such a way as to accomplish the basic objectives set forth in paragraphs 4 and 5 of this Directive. ……. Except as may be necessary to carry out these objectives, you will take no steps (a) looking toward the economic rehabilitation of Germany, or (b) designed to maintain or strengthen the German economy.

34. Subject to the provisions of paragraphs 30 and 32, the Control Council should assure that all feasible measures are taken to facilitate, to the minimum extent necessary for the purposes outlined in paragraphs 4 and 5 of this directive.
a. repairs to and restoration of essential transportation services and public utilities;
b. emergency repair and construction of the minimum shelter required for the civilian population;

I admit that I have problems to understand legal English but I think I haven’t taken the quotes out of context.
Regarding Japan one remark. The Japanese railway system was Kap gauge (1067 mm), the Shinkansen is standard gauge.
Regards, Volker
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Posted by 243129 on Thursday, October 4, 2018 9:44 AM

VOLKER LANDWEHR
you should read my posts regarding curve changes. The curves that were changed under the Marshall Plan were not changed with an eye on high-speed rail traffic. Proof, to change a saying, is in the eye the beholder. For me and others here it seems to be enough proof.

Anything can be justified "in the eye of beholder". You have proved nothing.

VOLKER LANDWEHR
But that same person expects that others take his word as proof for deficits at Amtrak.

I have based my statments on known facts. Amtrak is and has been inept since inception.

Here is an example of Amtrak's ongoing ineptitude ("deficits"):

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/amtrak-reform-attention-must-be-paid/

Take note of the first paragraph.

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, October 4, 2018 11:21 AM

BaltACD
Don't forget to allow a hour or more to pass through Security. Dulles is the same except Metro is not a option and it is about one hour from downtown DC.

Dulles will get Metro service some year...decade...century.  I think it's target is late 2019 now?

  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, October 4, 2018 1:05 PM

BaltACD

Airline travel on the NEC is inconvient for all that use it.  

Since heightened airport security entered the picture air is not the prime choice for business travel along the NEC.

 

Additionally Amtrak is able to operate in bad weather although it does seem to cancel once weather gets somewhat worse than airlines care for.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Friday, October 5, 2018 5:40 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR

 

 
charlie hebdo
I do recall the ICE-T (originally for Triebzug, later T for tilting) and ICE-TD (tilting diesel, originally Verbrennungstriebwagen) trains which entered service around 1999, using the Pendolino system with a maximum tilting angle of 8 degrees. Top speed: 230 kmh.

 

In 2008 tiny cracks were found in driving axles of the ICE-T trains. The maintenance intervals were reduced first to 28,000 miles and later after more cracks down to 13,000 miles.

To reduce the loads on wheelsets the tilting mechanism was deactivated though it worked without problems in contrast to regional tilt trains. There tilting was deactivated as the system was unreliable.

The tilting system is not reactivated yet on the ICE-T as the wheelsets are not replaced yet.

The ICE-TD (D for Diesel) had a broken axle which led to deactivation of the tilting system in 2003. The were decommissioned in December 2003. A number were reactivated for the FIFA World Cup 2006 in Germany. Since October 2017 no ICE-TD trains are in revenue service anymore. The Tilting system was never reactivated AFAIK.
Regards, Volker

 

I rode a DSR ICE-TD in April 2017 from Hamburg to Berlin.  Not one of my favorites.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 9, 2018 11:17 AM

243129
I have based my statments on known facts. Amtrak is and has been inept since inception.

You might wonder that I agree that Amtrak is having safety issues. You or others haven't proven it but there is enough evidence to believe it.

243129
Anything can be justified "in the eye of beholder". You have proved nothing.

I never tried to. Other as, at least partly, in the USA old documents are not available in Germany- Not on paper nor in internet. So everything that can be found is second or third hand information. I can only provide a timeline and evidence, my memory living as child in post war Germany, and experiencing the German economic miracle. What you make of it is up to you.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 9, 2018 12:22 PM

243129
in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways,

That is not what you wrote in your article.
Quote: Comparison to the European and Japanese railway systems cannot be made. Europe and Japan were bombed into rubble as a result of World War II. With nothing in the way, the Marshall Plan and SCAP — with an eye on the future — rebuilt the railway systems as straight as practicable.

For three years after the war the USA had no interest to help Germany to get strong again. See Directive JCS 1067. In these years only essential repairs were allowed.There was no chance, different priorities, and later no intent to think about high speed rail. There was no disadvantage for the USA, only different decisions.

The American change of direction came with the Marshall Plan. It helped Germany to get back on its feet and allowed as well as helped the German economic miracle.

Only with the German economic miracle in full swing the Bundesbahn (DB; German Railway) begann to think about high-speed passenger rail. In the early 1960s DB instructed their Group for General Studies with the design of a Higher-speed rail network. That were the first earnest attempts.
Regards, Volker

 

 

 

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Posted by 243129 on Tuesday, October 9, 2018 4:46 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR
VOLKER LANDWEHR wrote the following post 4 hours ago: 243129 in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways, That is not what you wrote in your article.

What did I say in my article that you infer I contradicted?

Quote: Comparison to the European and Japanese railway systems cannot be made. Europe and Japan were bombed into rubble as a result of World War II. With nothing in the way, the Marshall Plan and SCAP — with an eye on the future — rebuilt the railway systems as straight as practicable.

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Posted by 243129 on Tuesday, October 9, 2018 6:42 PM

blue streak 1
Additionally Amtrak is able to operate in bad weather although it does seem to cancel once weather gets somewhat worse than airlines care for.

The ACELA Express (read white elephant) is averse to snow.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 11:31 AM

243129

The ACELA Express (read white elephant) is averse to snow.

Pretty bad considering that the manufacturer also make Ski-doo's!

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 10, 2018 12:49 PM

243129
What did I say in my article that you infer I contradicted? Quote: Comparison to the European and Japanese railway systems cannot be made. Europe and Japan were bombed into rubble as a result of World War II. With nothing in the way, the Marshall Plan and SCAP — with an eye on the future — rebuilt the railway systems as straight as practicable.

In your article you paint a picture of Europe and Japan rebuilding their railway network with the help of the Marshall Plan as straight as possible directly after WWII.

In your post you write: in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways,

The latter is right, the marshall Plan initiated the economical evolution in Germany which made high-speed rail possible beginning in the 1970s. The article's statement is wrong as I tried to show for quite some time now. Directly after WWII the military governments limited what Germans were allowed to do. With rail the only possible mode of transportation there was no time to wait with rebuilding for the Marshall Plan.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by 243129 on Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:51 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR
In your post you write: in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways,

That is a quote from the Washington Post. I cannot contradict something I never said. Had you paid attention to my original post to you on that subject we would not be having this 'discussion' on something that did not happen.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1997/05/25/marshall-plan-changed-the-face-of-europe/645dece8-e549-4ad7-b9ae-a47b436d8fde/?utm_term=.4533f19b723c

 

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Posted by 243129 on Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:59 PM

243129

 

 
VOLKER LANDWEHR
I don't see any indication the the rebuilding after WWII was done with high-speed in mind. I hope that answers your question from the locked thread, changes yes but only where necessary not with high-speed in mind.

 

 

So what you are telling me is that the German Railways were built exactly to the same parameters on the same roadbed as pre-World War2. Is this so?

Excerpt from the WashingtonPost : But here in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways, in prosperous, modern cities, in products from perfume to fighter jets. Four of the seven richest nations on Earth are European recipients of Marshall Plan assistance.

Here is the entire text for your reading pleasure:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1997/05/25/marshall-plan-changed-the-face-of-europe/645dece8-e549-4ad7-b9ae-a47b436d8fde/?utm_term=.4533f19b723c

 

Here you go Volker. Read it again.

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Posted by 243129 on Thursday, October 11, 2018 7:00 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR
I don't see any indication the the rebuilding after WWII was done with high-speed in mind.

Just because you did not "see" it does not mean it did not happen. You offer no proof to the contrary.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, October 14, 2018 11:27 AM

SD70Dude
243129

The ACELA Express (read white elephant) is averse to snow.

 

Pretty bad considering that the manufacturer also make Ski-doo's! 

This, from a card-carrying Canadian?

Tellier sold that division off over 15 years ago.  That's almost as long as the lag between WWII and effective German HSR development.  Did Bombardier subsequently reacquire the snowmobile business?

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, October 14, 2018 12:49 PM

Overmod
 
SD70Dude
243129

The ACELA Express (read white elephant) is averse to snow. 

Pretty bad considering that the manufacturer also make Ski-doo's!  

This, from a card-carrying Canadian?

Tellier sold that division off over 15 years ago.  That's almost as long as the lag between WWII and effective German HSR development.  Did Bombardier subsequently reacquire the snowmobile business?

Bombardier Recreational Products was spun off in 2003 - it is still 35% owned by the Bombardier family.  Acela entered Amtrak service in 2000.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, October 14, 2018 1:34 PM

The point being that the engineer's assertion was that the train IS averse to snow, and the response being that the manufacturers MAKE Ski-Doos.

Had the grammar been different it would indeed have been an ironic observation (for some definitions of 'ironic'; see discussions of the Alanis song for the firehose drink).

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