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Posted by 243129 on Sunday, September 30, 2018 8:08 AM

BaltACD
The US forgot the winning the peace with Iraq after they destroyed all military and civilian control appratus. Leave a destroyed country with a power vacuum and what do you have?

A country without High SPEED Rail?

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Posted by Convicted One on Sunday, September 30, 2018 10:55 AM

243129
Up to this point I have ignored your stalking and snarky asides but you continue to buzz like an annoying gnat

You're wasting your time with that one. 

But, I think the gist of your article is that taxpayer subsidy can be best spent augmenting conventional infrastructure and equpiment, rather than pigeonholing it into a specialized niche?

I can agree with that,  bickering of your many sworn adversaries aside, I think you make a worthwhile point.

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Posted by Convicted One on Sunday, September 30, 2018 12:55 PM
Gee ,...what does all this chatter in these last several posts have to do with TRAINS? NADA!
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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, September 30, 2018 3:46 PM

Dave K. -- Well at least you are on record. Fighting Devils and demons is difficult, there are very few times when 'good' rules but it does happen for brief moments in history. 

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Posted by ROBIN LUETHE on Sunday, September 30, 2018 5:29 PM
My memory: HW Bush in his book after defeating Iraq and freeing Kuwait, he asked his advisers what he could do afterwards with Iraq should he continue and and take out Saddam Hussein, no one could give him a good answer so he declared the war over and won. It was.
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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 30, 2018 8:11 PM

Firelock76
In a little-known episode of ethnic cleansing all the ethnic Germans were expelled from the Sudetenland by Czech authorities after the war, probably into East Germany.

This was taught in foreign policy school as being at the express order of Josef Stalin, who then boasted that he had 'solved' the Sudeten German problem for all future time.  I don't think there were ever any careful tabs kept on where they went (as with some other Stalinist "incentives") but they assuredly went.

Some reference to this as a 'hoof-and-mouth disease' solution.  It does have to be said that there hasn't been much of a Sudetenland ethnic issue since 1949...

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, September 30, 2018 9:12 PM

Right you are, Overmod ol' buddy.  As soon as those pesky ethnic Germans were gone, and eventually the Russians, the Czechs and Slovaks got back to butting heads with each other without unwelcome outside interference.

So much so that there's no Czechoslovakia anymore, just the Czech Republic and Slovakia.  Whatever makes 'em happy, I suppose.

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, September 30, 2018 9:30 PM

As to the whereabouts of the Sudetenland Germans, "Uncle Joe" (as FDR called him) could have directed that they be moved to almost any place that suited him--whether or not it suited them. He had many other peoples moved from their historic homelands.

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, September 30, 2018 9:37 PM

It was not confined to just the Sudetenland, but all areas of the East were Germans civilians moved in to the new 'living space' as conquerers. Of course they took the finest homes and properties. The payback slaughter was very brutal. It was particularly bad in Czechoslovakia and Poland. Not just your odd hanging or shaved head, real nasty stuff. A person would be shot just for speaking German. 

After 6 years of witnessing and living unbelievable brutality, and the war over, the raw rage came out. Populations were neurotic and psychotic. In some ways it is quite understandable. 

Smithsonian states 6-8 Million expulsions and 200k-400k summary executions and brutal murders of German settlers. 

There was some of this in France and the West but nothing on that scale. 

My Dad was Polish and a holocaust survivor, the only one of his entire family, aunts, cousins, all of it. He was shot twice in the back and side by fleeing guards, faked death and was liberated 3 days later by advancing Americans. My mom, Dutch, was stashed away in a Convent in Southern France along with her 2 sisters and a brother by my Grandmother, who went on and fought in the underground. She had 2 confirmed kills and was honoured by the Canadian Military, very quietly, at her funeral. Grandfather died in a camp 1943, they found out in 1955, never knew, he was arrested and gone early 1940.  One sister was lost in a bombing raid earlier in Holland. They all made it and came to Canada in 1948-49 and that's my entire family. Most are gone now. 

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Posted by Backshop on Sunday, September 30, 2018 9:47 PM

It even happened in Germany itself.  The eastern borders shifted quite a bit after the war.  The current Russian territory of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, was once part of East Prussia.  The city of the same name was the former Konigsberg.  All the Germans from there were expelled.  Poland's borders also moved westward and the same thing happened.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 1, 2018 3:53 AM

To assist Backshop's post I link a map of Germany in the borders of 1937. The areas in light pink went to Poland and the Soviet Union.

https://media1.faz.net/ppmedia/aktuell/politik/inland/4016570108/1.4531243/default/deutschland-in-den-grenzen-von.jpg

But one should not forget, the Soviet's took the eastern part of Poland and Poland got instead the part of Germany east of the Oder-Neiße (two rivers) line. So Poland got literally got moved west with all described consequences.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, October 1, 2018 11:04 AM

To the Retired Engineer: If you look back to Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Thursday, September 27, 2018 8:42 AM , you will find the answer to the question you posted on the 188 wreck thread (which is now locked). 

Comment: if you build on the same alignment, which is surrounded by buildings, how much change can you make in the alignement?

Johnny

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 1, 2018 11:47 AM

243129

Comparison to the European and Japanese railway systems cannot be made. Europe and Japan were bombed into rubble as a result of World War II. With nothing in the way, the Marshall Plan and SCAP — with an eye on the future — rebuilt the railway systems as straight as practicable.

 

I tried to explain before that the tracks were rebuild to get it back into use as fast as possible, not with an eye on high-speed. There were changes to alignment, roadbed etc. wherever and whenever necessary to get the railroad running again asap.

It took 22 years to get the maximum speed to a level (100 mph) where it had been before WWII.

At the end of WWII there were 1,400 miles under catenary in southern Germany only. It took until 1965 for the electrification to reach Hamburg.

The line Hamburg to Hannover is 112 miles long. It got upgraded between 1978 an 1987 from 100 mph to 160 mph at costs of about $220 million in today's money. 95 individual measures where needed. Among them 13 realignments and naturally uprading the track in generall for higher speeds.

That needed to be done to 1,770 miles, as said before.

I don't see any indication the the rebuilding after WWII was done with high-speed in mind.

I hope that answers your question from the locked thread, changes yes but only where necessary not with high-speed in mind.

So the USA and Germany had equal chances other that the German Railway was a government entity at that time.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, October 1, 2018 12:32 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR

To assist Backshop's post I link a map of Germany in the borders of 1937. The areas in light pink went to Poland and the Soviet Union.

https://media1.faz.net/ppmedia/aktuell/politik/inland/4016570108/1.4531243/default/deutschland-in-den-grenzen-von.jpg

But one should not forget, the Soviet's took the eastern part of Poland and Poland got instead the part of Germany east of the Oder-Neiße (two rivers) line. So Poland got literally got moved west with all described consequences.
Regards, Volker

 

Keep in mind Poland was "partitioned" several times in the 18th C., with Russia, the Habsburg Empire and Prussia taking all of Poland in stages. 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, October 1, 2018 5:17 PM

Miningman
It was not confined to just the Sudetenland, but all areas of the East where Germans civilians moved in to the new 'living space' as conquerors. Of course they took the finest homes and properties. The payback slaughter was very brutal. It was particularly bad in Czechoslovakia and Poland.

This was not at all the case for the Sudeten Germans, who were Germans in their homes centuries before they were forced to 'become' "Czechoslovakian."  Probably a comprehensible analogy for Canadians would be the situation with American Loyalists who were forced off their properties after the American Revolution, or perhaps the lot of the French colonial population in New Brunswick who were forced to become Acadians in Louisiana.

What Stalin remembered was that Hitler used the 'ethnic German' excuse to set up first the partition and then annexation of that country in the Thirties, and made sure after gaining puppet control that it would never be used as an excuse again.

Worked, too.  There is no Sudeten German problem.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, October 1, 2018 6:21 PM

I understand that similar actions were taken against Italian's that had inhabited an area that became a part of Yougoslavia after WW II.  My understanding is that the ethnic Italians of the area were presented with a choice - either stay where they were under Yougoslavic oppression or become refugees and move to refugee camps until a final resettlement plan could be designed and implemented.  The Andretti family of auto racing fame went through the refugee path for seven years of so.

http://www.dinnerwithracers.com/ep-69-mario-andretti-pt-1/

 

http://www.dinnerwithracers.com/ep-70-mario-andretti-pt-2/

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by 243129 on Monday, October 1, 2018 7:13 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR
High-speed started with rebulding of old routes to 125 mph standard.

And no curves were eliminated or realigned to accommodate the higher speed?

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, October 2, 2018 10:14 AM

243129
VOLKER LANDWEHR
High-speed started with rebulding of old routes to 125 mph standard.

I am by no means an expert on German railways, but it seemed to me that most of the actual effort toward higher speed at the time (the early '60s) was in other areas from extensive line modifications and curve reduction (other than perhaps better spiraling or increased superelevation).  You see references to improvements in suspension, final drive, transformer available power, overhead-line integrity and pantograph following, better automatic train control, etc. being the important incremental things permitting higher peak speed, in that era.

I don't propose to insult the Germans by saying they got the impetus for 'new' high-speed line construction from the French, perhaps no earlier than the mid-Seventies, but you may notice that at least some of the true HSR lines in Germany involve almost heroic levels of civil engineering, involving numerous tunnels and fills to permit the necessary very long and well-spiraled horizontal and vertical curves.  I don't think either the money nor the political will were there for that kind of work, either in the '50s or '60s, and certainly not in even the cities with the largest Trummerbergs and delays in neighborhood reconstruction.  (There were certainly larger masses of rubbled, unrebuilt sections in East German cities then, but I don't think the Slavic overlords were particularly interested in providing 'their' Germans with very high speed express service.)

Volker may know if there was any discussion in Germany about implementing negative cant deficiency tilting to get to the 125mph level with existing curve geometries; that would certainly be a less expensive answer (for the initially limited higher-speed services in those bygone days) than wholesale line relocations for straightening.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 2, 2018 11:06 AM

243129

And no curves were eliminated or realigned to accommodate the higher speed?

 

The German network had a max. speed of 100 mph before WWII. So why eliminate curves for higher speeds if you don't have the fitting equipment and aren't able to even run this speed after WWII. The old alignment was good for 100 mph.

There might have been isolated curves were for other reasons necessary realignments led to higher allowed speeds.

But that doesn't change the fact that Germany didn't have any advantage to develop HSR over the USA after WWII. There were more essential priorities and the lack of economical power to even think about.

There are othe advantages in Germany. The size of the country and the distances between population centers are better suited for HSR than in the USA. On a number of domestic relations HSR can compete easily with air travel. And with our congested highway system going HSR can be faster than individual travel by car.

Essen to Stuttgart is 3:02 by ICE train, by car I need 5 hours. So even with 2 x 30 minutes traveling to and from the main stations included the train is faster.

That are our advantages not the situation after WWII. That situation was an advantage for re-industrialisation as we needed new machinery and got state-of-the-art equipment. 
Regards, Volker

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, October 2, 2018 11:42 AM

243129

 

 
VOLKER LANDWEHR
High-speed started with rebulding of old routes to 125 mph standard.

 

And no curves were eliminated or realigned to accommodate the higher speed?

 

Which is more important in a country that is recovering from a war--buildings for people to live in, or high-speed railroads?

Johnny

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 2, 2018 11:44 AM

Overmod
I don't propose to insult the Germans by saying they got the impetus for 'new' high-speed line construction from the French,

It is just true. SNCF commissioned the TGV in 1981, DB the ICE train in 1991. Both were perhaps inspired by the Shinkansen which started in 1964.

Overmod
Volker may know if there was any discussion in Germany about implementing negative cant deficiency tilting to get to the 125mph level with existing curve geometries;

The German Railway Construction and Operating Regulations (EBO) allow a max. superelevation of 7.1'' and a cant deficiency of 5.1''.

There were routes e.g. River Moselle valley were 125 mph were not achievable with re-alignments and superelevation. There tilt trains were used: https://www.welt.de/img/politik/deutschland/mobile152368377/8611622527-ci23x11-w960/Neigetechnik-verkuerzt-Fahrzeit-zwischen-Bayern-und-Thueringen-2.jpg

German Railway had tested tilt trains in the mid 1960s with mixed results. German Railway lost interest until the success of the Italian Pendelino and the Svedish X2000.

The first new German tilt trains ran in 1992. On most tilt trains the tilting mechanism is deactivated because of continous problems.
Regards, Volker

 

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Posted by 243129 on Tuesday, October 2, 2018 12:09 PM

Deggesty

 

 
243129

 

 
VOLKER LANDWEHR
High-speed started with rebulding of old routes to 125 mph standard.

 

And no curves were eliminated or realigned to accommodate the higher speed?

 

 

 

Which is more important in a country that is recovering from a war--buildings for people to live in, or high-speed railroads?

 

 

Whose decision is that to make?

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Posted by 243129 on Tuesday, October 2, 2018 4:05 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR
I don't see any indication the the rebuilding after WWII was done with high-speed in mind. I hope that answers your question from the locked thread, changes yes but only where necessary not with high-speed in mind.

 

So what you are telling me is that the German Railways were built exactly to the same parameters on the same roadbed as pre-World War2. Is this so?

Excerpt from the WashingtonPost : But here in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways, in prosperous, modern cities, in products from perfume to fighter jets. Four of the seven richest nations on Earth are European recipients of Marshall Plan assistance.

Here is the entire text for your reading pleasure:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1997/05/25/marshall-plan-changed-the-face-of-europe/645dece8-e549-4ad7-b9ae-a47b436d8fde/?utm_term=.4533f19b723c

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Posted by Backshop on Tuesday, October 2, 2018 4:30 PM

243129

 

 
VOLKER LANDWEHR
High-speed started with rebulding of old routes to 125 mph standard.

 

And no curves were eliminated or realigned to accommodate the higher speed?

 

Nobody ever said there weren't.  Just that it didn't happen right after the war, and didn't have anything to do with the Marshall Plan.

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Posted by 243129 on Tuesday, October 2, 2018 4:35 PM

Backshop

 

 
243129

 

 
VOLKER LANDWEHR
High-speed started with rebulding of old routes to 125 mph standard.

 

And no curves were eliminated or realigned to accommodate the higher speed?

 

 

 

Nobody ever said there weren't.  Just that it didn't happen right after the war, and didn't have anything to do with the Marshall Plan, like that idiot editorial writer said.

 

 

So can you offer any proof to dispute what "that idiot editorial writer said"?

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, October 2, 2018 4:57 PM

Overmod
Volker may know if there was any discussion in Germany about implementing negative cant deficiency tilting to get to the 125mph level with existing curve geometries; that would certainly be a less expensive answer (for the initially limited higher-speed services in those bygone days) than wholesale line relocations for straightening.

Volker does.  I do recall the ICE-T (originally for Triebzug, later T for tilting) and ICE-TD (tilting diesel, originally Verbrennungstriebwagen) trains which entered service around 1999, using the Pendolino system with a maximum tilting angle of 8 degrees. Top speed: 230 kmh. I recall riding them on several different lines (the old Berlin-Munich route and the Leipzig-Frankfurt route) that had numerous sharp curves.

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Posted by 243129 on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 10:03 AM

charlie hebdo
Who can be first to spot the factual flaws (the writing is fine) by our resident retired engineer? My guess is Volker will be first.

Comparison to the European and Japanese railway systems cannot be made. Europe and Japan were bombed into rubble as a result of World War II. With nothing in the way, the Marshall Plan and SCAP — with an eye on the future — rebuilt the railway systems as straight as practicable.

Volker speaks only of Germany and insists no curves were eliminated under the Marshall Plan. He has offered no conclusive proof.

You, the OP, have not submitted any proof of my "factual flaws". Why?

I stand by my statement concerning European and Japanese railways and have seen nothing tangible to dispute it.

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 10:22 AM

243129
So what you are telling me is that the German Railways were built exactly to the same parameters on the same roadbed as pre-World War2. Is this so?

You ask this question over and over again and I answered it. Perhaps you should read my answers or might be you are hindered by the moderation.

So once again, the railway was rebuilt on the old alignment with the old parameters wherever possible. Changes were not made for higher speeds.

243129
Excerpt from the WashingtonPost : But here in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways, in prosperous, modern cities, in products from perfume to fighter jets. Four of the seven richest nations on Earth are European recipients of Marshall Plan assistance.

Interesting article.

Your quote has one flaw. As the article was writen in May of 1997 it describes the situation correctly for that time, 50+ years after the end of WWII. At that time (!997) German Railway had ICE trains since 1991.

Perhaps another quote from this article: Schmidt wrote: "There were days during the winter of 1946-1947 when we stayed in bed because there was nothing to eat and nothing to burn for warmth." Before that terrible winter, the Germans dug thousands of graves for the number of people they knew would starve to death before the earth had thawed.

Mr. Schmidt was German chancellor from 1974 to 1982.

Or another quote: American soldiers occupying Germany often found, when they went to discard their uneaten rations, a German begging for the scraps.

All basic products were rationed. The daily ration of bread -- a dietary staple -- in France was 200 grams a day, less than a long baguette loaf. To buy a coat in Germany, you had to request a permit; it was often denied. A pack of Chesterfield cigarettes cost 100 marks on the black market, a third of one month's average wage.

And in that situation railroad managers think about higher speeds on the railway? Really?

The only energy sources Germany (West) had were the hard coal mines in the Ruhr Area and the soft coal pits between Cologne and Aachen. For its distribution the track needed repairs as fast as possible.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 11:08 AM

charlie hebdo
I do recall the ICE-T (originally for Triebzug, later T for tilting) and ICE-TD (tilting diesel, originally Verbrennungstriebwagen) trains which entered service around 1999, using the Pendolino system with a maximum tilting angle of 8 degrees. Top speed: 230 kmh.

In 2008 tiny cracks were found in driving axles of the ICE-T trains. The maintenance intervals were reduced first to 28,000 miles and later after more cracks down to 13,000 miles.

To reduce the loads on wheelsets the tilting mechanism was deactivated though it worked without problems in contrast to regional tilt trains. There tilting was deactivated as the system was unreliable.

The tilting system is not reactivated yet on the ICE-T as the wheelsets are not replaced yet.

The ICE-TD (D for Diesel) had a broken axle which led to deactivation of the tilting system in 2003. The were decommissioned in December 2003. A number were reactivated for the FIFA World Cup 2006 in Germany. Since October 2017 no ICE-TD trains are in revenue service anymore. The Tilting system was never reactivated AFAIK.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by 243129 on Wednesday, October 3, 2018 11:33 AM

VOLKER LANDWEHR
There might have been isolated curves were for other reasons necessary realignments led to higher allowed speeds

This is your 'disclaimer'.

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