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LION 2013

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Thursday, October 10, 2013 9:45 AM

daveklepper
My guess is that this is looking south from an overpass at Northern Coney Island Yard toward Stillwelll Avenue Station

But your guess is wrong. You are not even in the right county!

LION is riding on the (7) train as it enters the El. I am looking out of the starboard window at the LIRR tracks east of Long Island City.

LION stays on IRT, on (1) train leaving 42nd Street for da Bronix.

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:24 AM

My guess is that this is looking south from an overpass at Northern Coney Island Yard toward Stillwelll Avenue Station, with the West End line on the curving ramp on the right ("D" curently, was "B"), and three-to-four and then three tracks wiith concrete ties on two of the four being the Sea Beach line ("N").   Lots, lots of new buildings on the left since I was there.   Good apartments for subway train fans, but otherwise, wonder if they mind the noise.  

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Posted by MidlandMike on Wednesday, October 9, 2013 9:40 PM

BroadwayLion

Where was this pix taken?  Are we looking at multiple lines?

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Wednesday, October 9, 2013 6:45 AM

daveklepper
Do you know in general the years the wood walkways were replaced with plastic?   I think this must be after 1996.

There still are a few wooden walkways left, but I have no idea when the new ones began to appear.

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 8, 2013 4:51 PM

In my era the wooden beams were replaced with guard rails that looked like regular rr guard rails, much closer to the running rails.   On elevated stuctures.   But not in the subways or on grade or in cuts.  The tracks on the Brighton and Sea Bach lines looked just like any regular railroad that electrified with a protected overruning third rail, like the LIRR.

Do you know in general the years the wood walkways were replaced with plastic?   I think this must be after 1996.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Tuesday, October 8, 2013 11:53 AM

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Tuesday, October 8, 2013 10:14 AM

The new walkways are (AFIK) made of fiberglass. We have similar on a ramp from the sacristy to the courtyard, and so I paid particular attention to them.

Those are not rails waiting to be picked up. Those are GUARD RAILS in case a train derails up there it should be retained on the structure and not fall down to the street below.  In days of old when els ruled the road, 6x6 wooden beams on the outside of the tracks served this purpose.

LION calls these guard rails, and this, I am told is correct, LION said to others that when the guard rails were closer to the running rail that they were guide rails, but him found out this is not sooth. They are still guard rails. All elevated subways have guard rails, frequently only on one side,  LION will have to install same on his layout.

Further, NYCT does leave spare rails in the middle of the gauge so that if a rail breaks, there is a spare near by. It is difficult to get rails into tunnels or up onto structures, so spares are there. See the near track in the photo below. A spare is under the first overpass. Getting rails, and cranes into tunnels is a problem, sending a crew of four men down there with a power saw can use that spare to make a replacement in a half an hour or so. The can even weld it in place with hand tools.

ROAR

Watch track welding:
OR QvQ3bk84

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 8, 2013 2:59 AM

Again, I enjoy the fact that the old wooden walkways have been replaced with rustproof painted steel.   But again the old rail has yet to be picked up.  Maybe it is left in place tobe a sort of guard rail.   Also looks like new plastic third-rail coverboards replacing wood.  The old signals are sill there.   From 1938 or even older.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Monday, October 7, 2013 10:08 AM

Turn LEFT for Queensboro Bridge, Turn Right for Queensboro Plaza. Change here for trains to Astoria.

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, October 6, 2013 3:19 PM

Portal;:  Dyckman-200th Street on the "1" Line, close to, but not at, Broadway.   Nicholous Avenue is closer. 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:49 PM

That is one cool old tunnel portal!  And what a job they made of it, looks just as good as the day it was built!

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:01 AM

In photo above, tracks enter tunnel, wall to left holds mountain back from track.

Now turn around and look at the other end of the station:

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, October 5, 2013 9:15 AM

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Friday, October 4, 2013 11:27 AM

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 4, 2013 3:01 AM

Under Bill Vigrass' scheme, for PATCO, third rail power would be turned off in the applicable section any time 600V jumper cables were connected or disconnected.  Both at Lindanwold and in the yards where trains were made up.  He also proposed a varient.  On the old Reading MU's 11000V AC power was bussed along all mu cars in a train.   If you have photos of these cars as bult (possibly not with the "Blue car" later modification), you will see a large, pretty wide electrical contactor projecting from the roof above the headlight of each car.   No jumpers were used for power, the contactors did the job automtically.  And the 11000V distribution cable was carried through only on the insulated roof of each car.

But a number of interurban lines did use 600V jumper cables, simply lowering the pantographs or trolley poles whenever the cables were connected or disconnected.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Thursday, October 3, 2013 9:29 PM

henry6

I don't follow you, or you don't follow me...     ...I imagine it may not have to be too much if any different than a normal diesel so that the locomotive can be used universally...

I think we may be coming to the same conclusion, both are converging on a normal diesel or dual powered.  Anyway, I did not mean to send Lion's thread off on a tangent.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Thursday, October 3, 2013 3:30 PM

My understanding is that this is not permitted. You cannot connect third rail power between coupled cars regardless of where it comes from.  HEP power which is only 400 volts is ok, but 600 + is not.

Leastwise safety regulations and union rules do not permit this. Permanently married pairs count as one car for the purpose of this rule. Obviously this is done with slugs, but turning the engines off renders the connection safe to work with, this is not the case for cars electrically connected to the main. But I'll ask Dutchrailnut for a clarification

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, October 3, 2013 8:01 AM

MidlandMike

While I'm sure an MU power slug is possible, it is problematic.  As has been noted in other threads (perhaps also by yourself) there seems the be a bias toward loco hauled vs MU operation by NJT.  A dual powered loco (hauling coaches) is much more flexible than a power slug/MU combo, plus you don't need heavy duty bus cables.  A slug would be a hard sell business decision..

I don't follow you, or you don't follow me.  The concept of a diesel engine generating the same voltage as is fed to MUse would allow MU's usage to be extended beyond electrified zone or allow for a train with each car powered to effect an electric MU train without the expense of constructing and maintaining a third rail or overhead wire system.  It can be complementary to an existing electric system by being able to extend the territory of the train without purchasing new cars or it could stand alone without the hardware but getting the same performance quality from the trainsets.  The engine could have a similar traction motor as the cars or could just have a small motor to move itself when coupling.  I'm not an engineer but I imagine it may not have to be too much if any different than a normal diesel so that the locomotive can be used universally. .  The idea is to get the benefits of electric traction as in MU operations without the expensive infrastructure.  

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Thursday, October 3, 2013 7:05 AM

from this original:

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 3, 2013 2:17 AM

The diesel generator sets towed by streetcars at the museums mentioned are 250Hp or less, enough to move a streetcar at a respectable 25mph.   The job Bill Vigrass was designing was in the 1500-1800HP range, more than enough to power a six-car PATCO mu train between Lindlenwalk and Atlantic City at 70mph.

Of course, in the steam days, old NYC mu's were run in bound in the AM and outbound in the PM behind Pacifics and later J1a Hudsons between Peekskill and Harmon.  On fhe outbound trips the mu train engineer would often remain on the front platform and use the available electic power to help the steamer accelerate the train, shutting off just before the end of third rail.  The old mu's were equipped  with jumpers to allow head-end lighting (but not heat, must have been pretty cold in winter) from the locomotive oversized generators.   This was the practice on two inbound and two outbound rush hour trains.

Correction:  I believe the NYC did have some old cleristory-roof mu's that were also steam-heat equipped.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Wednesday, October 2, 2013 8:25 PM

henry6

OK.  So does the diesel generator produce enough power to move the train great distances and at what speed?  What I like about this is that I asked a VP of Alstom about using diesel slugs to produce power for MU cars so that the same cars could be used either under wire or on third rail or continue beyond power source with the diesel providing traction power.  His answer was, if I remember, that it was possible and considered for European application but the US loading standards so far wouldn't accept it..  This would not be a subway application, but a commuter application whereby, say, an MU set on NTJ could be used on any line of the non wired lines or extensions of services where the wire ends; same with MNRR, LIRR, SEPTA, even Amtrak I suppose or any other commuter operation.

While I'm sure an MU power slug is possible, it is problematic.  As has been noted in other threads (perhaps also by yourself) there seems the be a bias toward loco hauled vs MU operation by NJT.  A dual powered loco (hauling coaches) is much more flexible than a power slug/MU combo, plus you don't need heavy duty bus cables.  A slug would be a hard sell business decision..

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 2, 2013 12:29 PM

Recognize the previous photo as on the No.7 line between Queens(boro) Plaza and the portal at Huntspoint Avenue Station.   In the 17 years since I last looked at the line, they have replaced the wood maiintenance walkways with  steel grid walkways, with rust-prventive paint.  Safer and sturdier and  possibly even lighter.v  New plastic third-rail cover-boards replaced wooden ones, also!   Progress!   Looks like they also replaced the runng rails recently and have yet to remove the old stuff.

The concept of a diesel slug is already in use in the North America.   Several trolley museums run trolley cars without overhead wire, towing a diesel generator!   I thin the museum operaton near Pofrtland Oregon is one, and the car across the Edmonton High Bridge is another.

Bill Vigrass, consultant on the Delaware River Port Authority Lindenwald line and then its Super. of Ops., proposed just the sort of slub you are talking about to allow PATCO mu trains to run to Atlantic City.  He even did a prelimary design of the cabless locomotive and its control by the mu cars.  In one alternative, the generator powered the motors of the MU cars themselves, which would have required the addition of electric power jumper cables for the mu cars.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:33 AM

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:04 AM

On the rider car? NO, the diesel is for hotel power only, there is no traction involved.

The diesel locomotives are GE-44 tonners and operate as such.

The electric locomotives, also built by GE on the 44-ton frame are 100% electric locomotives with no diesel at all. The do have enough battery power to get past gaps in the third rail, but nothing more.

TRACTION POWER is NEVER moved between cars with couplers. It is done across drawbars where no one outside of the maintenance crew would be connecting or disconnecting the power. A locomotive cannot be used to provide traction power to an MU car, and MU power cannot be jumped from car to car. Each car (or pair of cars with draw bars) must have its own power collection. Arcs of that magnitude are quite lethal.

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, October 2, 2013 9:42 AM

OK.  So does the diesel generator produce enough power to move the train great distances and at what speed?  What I like about this is that I asked a VP of Alstom about using diesel slugs to produce power for MU cars so that the same cars could be used either under wire or on third rail or continue beyond power source with the diesel providing traction power.  His answer was, if I remember, that it was possible and considered for European application but the US loading standards so far wouldn't accept it..  This would not be a subway application, but a commuter application whereby, say, an MU set on NTJ could be used on any line of the non wired lines or extensions of services where the wire ends; same with MNRR, LIRR, SEPTA, even Amtrak I suppose or any other commuter operation.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Wednesday, October 2, 2013 9:34 AM

You have left the LION with many things to esplain...

The money train was self-propelled, it consisted of two cars bracketed by two more cars. The train crews manned the outer two cars, the Revenue Team manned the middle two cars. Here is the (inside) revenu car. The cat is named "Token," She belongs to the Transit Museum, and did not actually ride the Money Train.

As for the train at 62nd Street... It is a work train, and much more cannot be said about it. It is bulling a Rider Car, and converted IRT car as was said, it does not have traction motors, but does have a diesel generator on board to provide hotel power to work crews. Where work crews must go power is frequently shut down.

NYCT does not have any dual modes, but there are both diesel and electric locomotives that look almost the same from the outside. In the electric configuration they do have battery powered traction to pull the locomotive across any power gaps that the train may encounter.

MOW equipment is the domain of "C-Division" and they have many kinds of equipment on their roster.

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, October 2, 2013 8:08 AM

Almost all of NYCTA's locomotives in m/w service are conventional diesel-electrics, no dual-powers.  I would assume that they have quick-starting truck-size diesels to minimize the problem of fumes when on work duty in the subway tunnels.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, October 2, 2013 8:07 AM

With the pic not dated or captioned, I took a WAG.  I know today, cash booths are not the thing as tokens are not purchased in the same way as MetroCards, etc.  But coach riders to and from yards...makes a lot of sense in today's operations.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by joe323 on Wednesday, October 2, 2013 7:09 AM
With the exit of the tokens and the booths I suspect that very little cash is actually used in the subway anymore so the money trains are not needed. Even the buses rarely see coins.

Joe Staten Island West 

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, October 1, 2013 10:46 PM

Okay, a little detective work...

Henry, iirc the revenue collection cars have been retired, with a couple preserved at the NYC Transport Museum, but Lion can tell us. With the Metrocard, they are not needed?

The signs say 62nd Street, which is a station on the BMT West Side Line. This leads to the Coney Island yard and shops. Based on the two cars that are out in daylight hours, I think that these are R161 Rider Cars, for the purpose of transporting track workers. These are old IRT R33 cars, smaller than BMT cars, which explains the large gap between the cars and the platform. They are being pulled by a diesel, leading me to believe they are going to a place without third rail power.

 Can Lion solve this mystery? 

 

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