You are right NortWest, and after this change of loco owners we will know the approximate prices for this kind of second hand or third hand locomotives.
I think that in one or two years the Swedish and German economies running in full speed again the need for more used locos will arise again. The 25 kV (+15 kV) in ALP44s might prove excellent feature for numerous export-import intermodals now running between Germany and Sweden. Of course the quite expensive ATP systems are still needed for all three countries, pushing the costs higher.
NorthWest Thanks for the report, McKey. As long as the ALP-44s still exist, there is hope for further service. We will just have to wait and see, and possibly make aware locomotive short operators should the need for locomotives arise.
Thanks for the report, McKey.
As long as the ALP-44s still exist, there is hope for further service. We will just have to wait and see, and possibly make aware locomotive short operators should the need for locomotives arise.
Now it looks like the Swedish/Norwegian market is all of a sudden full of used electric locomotives.
SJ, the government owned passenger operator for Sweden, is shedding 25 of its 27 Rc3 locomotives. These have a documented history and they have been kept in top shape as you can see from the picture below. Rc3 is a true multipurpose electric loco on the lighter side, capable of running up to three units in consist (could be more but the obsolete hook-and-screw coupler used in Europe won't handle more). And since it is part of the Rc family, everyone knows it is trustworthy even in the demanding northern conditions.
The first batch of 13 handsomely painted glossy black locos is now for sale and you can bid for those. This sale should be finalized by June this year. Some of the units are already in use at some of the numerous operators in Sweden (training in Sweden is comparable to trucking in U.S., meaning that anyone withing qualification can run trains). I wonder what will happen to these units if the companies running them won't win the bidding.
With the European general economic gloom there are already the right number of locos in Sweden now, so I suppose these will be enough for the coming year or so. After that there might again be room for Alp44s. Or if a need to use 15 kV / 25 kV locos at through route Sweden (15 kV) - Denmark (25 kV) - Germany (15 kV) arises, Alp44 are a lot better alternative to Rc3s, which could only run as far as Copenhagen in Denmark / Malmö in Sweden.
It will be interesting to see how the sales develop and who are the bidders.
Below an SJ Rc3 unit 1062 already coupled to the intermodal freight cars in Stockholm Årsta in 2013. This was in use at Rush Rail on their poor business of running intermodals between Gothenburg and Stockholm. The business owner in now bankrupt and Rush Rail has acquired shielding from its creditors.
And here is one of the two "switcher" units remaining for use at Hagalund in Stockholm for the SJ itself. 1027 is still has cool 1990s colors :) .
These are two pictures of ALP-44's:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=315536&nseq=9
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=243987&nseq=42
Here are two pictures of AEM-7's:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=361730&nseq=6
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=281931&nseq=8
While your idea would work,
The M-8s can reach 100MPH, so there is no reason to not use them on express services. This has the cost advantages of fleet standardization. I think this is the route they will go.
The ALP-44s are similar to locomotives in Nordic countries, and would fit in well there.
zkr123But they could help on the Shoreline East and expand using the P40's from New Haven to Hartford.
I think that SLE is looking at purchasing new M8s, the same MUs used by Metro North into New Haven.
But they could help on the Shoreline East and expand using the P40's from New Haven to Hartford.
I fear that is the case, and the GP40FH-2s will probably vanish as well. While they still exist, however, there is still hope.
They're so new, disappeared so quickly, and have such a strong family resemblance with the AEM-7 that I think the entire class could easily end up disappearing. I'm not sure that there are enough people out there that appreciate them or enough railfan nostalgia to lead to one being saved.
Anyone know if it's something that the United Railroad Historical Society of New Jersey is considering pursuing when they begin to be disposed of? Off hand, if one is saved, they would appear to likely be the best bet to be responsible for it I would think. They have several NJT related pieces including a U34CH and several electric locomotives with NJT connections, presumably retain a good relationship with NJT, and seem to be good at getting things done.
There is always SEPTA's lone ALP-44, no matter what happens to the NJT ones, although with the possibility of accident damage, I agree with you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SJ_Rb (made clickable).
Maybe they could ask for one ALP44 too? Just to make the weather, torch and possible new owners will no destroy every one of them. I could imagine this could actually happen, as the ASEA Rc cool looking 3 preseries prototypes in Sweden disapperared before anyone noticed they were gone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SJ_Rb
Leo, thanks.
Glad at least one AEM-7 is being preserved, hope an HHP-8 is as well.
The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania and Amtrak have already agreed that one will
be preserved at the museum. I got this from a member of the museum's board.
Scrap is the likely outcome when Amtrak is done with all of them. Hopefully at least 1 will be preserved such as at the the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania with its electric collection when they're done.
They're old and require increasing amounts of maintenance and with decreased availability rates, have many millions of miles under them, and there's not much demand for aged high speed electric passenger power in this country. So the consensus from those in the know seems to suggest it's unlikely that other operators like SEPTA would be interested in even the rebuilds.
Doesn't even sound like MARC would want some of the HHP-8's so I don't see Bombardier being able to peddle those when they come off lease despite being young. They've always been disappointments, had unsatisfactory reliability that has created a hangar queen reputation for the fleet, and many of the vendors don't exist which complicates keeping them running. Despite their young ages, they're nothing that anyone else would likely want and I imagine that they're too Americanized to export despite the technology apparently being successful in several related European designs.
If it's not already too late, if there's going to be any secondary sales of electric power in this country in the near future, it should be with the subject of this thread. But even though they were all buttoned up for storage, it doesn't take long sitting idle in the Northeast for expensive deterioration to take hold so their viable days are numbered. Plus, many went into storage as they were coming due for expensive mid-life overhauls.
So any operator picking some of these up is likely facing a hefty price tag to get one up and running.
That is another thing, Leo and McKey, what will happen to the Amtrak AEM-7s? They are getting on in years of heavy service, the newest being 25 years old, and the oldest being 35 years old, although the Rcs have also been in service that long.
I just thought that since they were not being used and they are the only spare locomotives that can go 125mph, I'd say why not give them a shot if they're still functional.
This is highly interesting since these two machine types now in use at HectorRail in Sweden once left SGP factories too. HectorRail simply fixed their defects and now they are working wonderfully! So ALP44s should be piece of cake for them / their works (I think they are using the locoworks at Malmbana in Notviken and TågAB services in Kristinehamn).
beaulieu The ALP44s were built by SGP (Simmering-Graz-Pauker AG) in Floridsdorf, Austria with ABB electrical equipment. SGP built most of the OeBB's 1042 and 1044 class electric locomotives. Pictures by Gerry Putz.
The ALP44s were built by SGP (Simmering-Graz-Pauker AG) in Floridsdorf, Austria with ABB electrical equipment. SGP built most of the OeBB's 1042 and 1044 class electric locomotives. Pictures by Gerry Putz.
Austrian 1042 below and 1012 under it.
The ALP44s were built by SGP (Simmering-Graz-Pauker AG) in Floridsdorf, Austria with ABB electrical equipment. SGP built most of the OeBB's 1042 and 1044 class electric locomotives.
Regarding transformers, Finland would not require rebuilding, possibly some tap modification, possibly not even that. Denmark could probabliy get by with tap modification. Sweden and Norway, new transformers.
You are right, these are the ruling voltages for the Nordic countries:
Sweden: 15 kV 16,7 Hz due to early electrification of the heavy duty Malmbana, very similar case to Gotthard pass route in Switzerland.
Norway: actually part of the same network with Sweden: 15 kV 16,7 Hz
Denmark: late beginning enabled more developed 15 kV 50 Hz (note that in Europe the Hz is alway 50 instead of the American 60).
Finland: due to very late beginning (late 1960s) 25 kV 50 Hz, sometimes double overhead wires installed for more powerful current feed.
Iceland: no overheard electricity.
Nearby Estonia: 3300 V DC. I suppose they will start building more modern and more functional 25 kV 50 Hz in the coming years.
Phelps One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the transformer design. The ALP44s apparently were ok for both 25 Hz and 60 Hz, but the Nordic electrification is 16 2/3 Hz. That might be beyond the ability of the transformers to handle at full rating. Dave Phelps
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the transformer design. The ALP44s apparently were ok for both 25 Hz and 60 Hz, but the Nordic electrification is 16 2/3 Hz. That might be beyond the ability of the transformers to handle at full rating.
Dave Phelps
To encourage possible rebuilding if needed here is a picture of a veteran that has been rebuilt quite thoroughly for three times, finally retired in 2013.
Dave Phelps, as an ex-transformer designer, you are correct. Probably a transformer replacement would be in order. The 25Hz transformers may be far too inefficient for operation and run too hot at the same time. Much depends on the actual transformer design. If it could be used, it would be derated to about half power!
The 65 or so operating AEM-7's and HHP-8's are all slated for retirement by the 70 upcoming ACS-64's. First will go the AEM-7DC's then the rebuilds and HHP-8's.
Clearance should not be a problem in the Nordic countries. Here is a proof of that ;)
Picture by Gerry Putz from the Swedish hot spot Hallsberg (right in the middle of the country, judged not by the geography but the population).
In tow are the huge containers of StoraEnso used for forest products (cellulose?). This is a Green Cargo Rc4 number 1308 running just past the operators loco depot.
But if you go as far as Germany, things on clearings can look very different. Not to talk about Switzerland who just got one of the tunnels heightened to 4 meters...the Swedish and Finnish trucks are often 4,4 meters high / 14 feet 515⁄64 inches, so there is no way these could be loaded even to a low profile truck carrier. What a waste of efforts when the normal Northern loading gauged can't be used for this rail transit route to South!
might not there be clearance problems, width especially?
McKey, emailing companies would be good. It would be terrible to waste these, they are probably only halfway through their service life.
If these go to Europe, NJT benefits, as they probably can sell them for more than scrap value, the European operators get locomotives similar to those successful in service cheaper than new locomotives, everyone wins!
Thanks for the information gentlemen! As an old friend once said, it's a wasted day if you haven't learned something new!
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