NorthWestBecause the tunnels into NYP are crowded enough as it is.
In the middle of the night when the freight would run?
Clearance in the tunnels was always the significant issue. You're basically limited to single-level containers in well cars -- no TOFC so no 'iron highway' bridge service through the congested Manhattan region for road traffic.
If I rmember correctly, years ago there was a small railroad in central New Jersey that was interested in running a service from various industrial and warehouse facilities in that area through to a connection with NY&A somewhere on the Island. Did anything ever come of that?
Would that not be a sight!
CSSHEGEWISCH It looks like the whole train would be quite at home on the NEC.
It looks like the whole train would be quite at home on the NEC.
Swedish SJ was divided up in 1996 to enable competition on rails, just like it is done on highways. The government owned half that took over freight became Green Cargo. Here Green Cargo Rd2 is hauling freight in Lund. Rd2 is a rebuilt Rc2, extending their effective life with 20 years. Picture by Gerry Putz.
Below one of the early Rd2 units on test drive a coach laden with instruments for metering its heart beat. About 60 were rebuilt, but they retained their DC drive.
As Northwest points out, even in the Nordic countries the Rcs are abundant. European economies (outside Germany alone) are still in deep recession, which means lots of mothballed locomotives, for now. Type Rc1's have now all been removed from roster duet to old age, and even some Rc2 and Rc4 units are being recirculated as raw steel.
NorthWest Currently, there is a power surplus in the land of Rcs, so we've put on hold our efforts to try to contact NJT and potential buyers.
Currently, there is a power surplus in the land of Rcs, so we've put on hold our efforts to try to contact NJT and potential buyers.
Below a private company TågAB (English: Train corp) is running a container train in Hallsberg, Sweden.
Interesting: new top of the line locomotives cost 8,5 million USD per unit. Old Rc locos (related to AEM7) in Sweden + Norway have recently been sold for 7,3 million USD a piece despite their old age and being DC drive (much more service needed than on AC drive, Rcs are actually inspected and served _daily_). It sounds like SEPTA has really made a great purchase!
I'm also sorry to hear the old meat balls being removed from the roster :(
Could we think that purchase cost is actually not ruling but the operations costs are decisive here.
Long live the Swedish meat balls! Pictures by Nick, Hannu and me.
Shouldn't come as a surprise, but the contract that will kill SEPTA's sole ALP44 and their older AEM-7's has been signed.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2015/05/septa-inks-$154-million-order-for-new-siemens-locomotives
For what ever reason, I'm not sure why, I believe the FTA still has some stake in their ownership. This became a big issue when we acquired some Comet cars from NJT several years ago. They are still NJT property, just stored in Colorado.
Because the tunnels into NYP are crowded enough as it is. Not going to happen.
Would any of the freight companies consider buying them so they don't have to go around Manhattan?
Caltrain seems set on using EMU's based on foreign designs. I doubt that these locomotives, mostly due for heavy overhauls when laid up and with a decade or more of sitting idle by the time the projected 2019 startup approaches, would ever be viable for them.
McKey You are absolutely right. But the success in sales would mean the pricing should not be prohibitive. While "Rc kind" locos must be an attractive option, there are many other European locos for sale or lease as well. I think we will be much wiser before the years end. One of the issues is that Green Cargo is for the moment still storing 10 - 15 Rcs around its networks. However, it is simultaneously shedding its old and obsolete Rc1s that have clocked millions of miles. Looking at the specifications the Rc1 looks to me a kind of "preproduction model" slightly different from the most other Rcs. When the Rc1s are gone, others models will be needed to replace them.
You are absolutely right. But the success in sales would mean the pricing should not be prohibitive. While "Rc kind" locos must be an attractive option, there are many other European locos for sale or lease as well.
I think we will be much wiser before the years end.
One of the issues is that Green Cargo is for the moment still storing 10 - 15 Rcs around its networks.
However, it is simultaneously shedding its old and obsolete Rc1s that have clocked millions of miles. Looking at the specifications the Rc1 looks to me a kind of "preproduction model" slightly different from the most other Rcs. When the Rc1s are gone, others models will be needed to replace them.
Good to know. Please keep us updated!
The big question is if NJT is even willing to sell, and if so, for how much. If time, I may try to contact NJT about them, but probably not until next weekend.
The Rc1s are beautiful!
NorthWest So it seems that there is room and demand for the ALP-44s! Now we just need to get New Jersey Transit and a power short operator to start talking to each other...
So it seems that there is room and demand for the ALP-44s! Now we just need to get New Jersey Transit and a power short operator to start talking to each other...
Anyways, long live the Rc1 (in the pictures)! The best recognition means are the rebuilt large grilles on the sides. The first loco was spotted in Kiruna after it brought the regional mixed freight there from south and the second unit #1026 I spotted in Hallsberg outgoing locos row last summer.
Thanks for the answers and pictures.
Great to be back on this forum again :)
1. How many locomotives total are up for auction?
-> 28, 13 were sold now, so the second batch will have 15 according to original plans. This would leave 2 units for the use of SJ. Surprisingly these are "switchers"! One is in Stockholm, I have not spotted the other so I can't tell for sure where you find the nicely colored unit, most likely Malmö or Göteborg.
2. What is the approximate price range for each?
-> This is not public information yet. Neither the buyer or the seller has reported this, but I will have this info available next month. I expect the price range being somewhere between 75'000 - 150'000 euros / 100'000 - 200'000 USD. I might be mistaking here. But these are OLD but very well kept locos and missing some of the latest equipment (which of course does not hurt their use much at the moment, in fact the Rcs are valued much higher than brand new TRAXX F140 AC2 models).
3. Is there more demand than supply for locomotives, especially as the economy picks back up?
The Swedish economy is the second strongest in European Union (Norway next door is doing even better with their abundant oil, gas and hydroelectric reserves). Once the demand in one or two years from now will pick up again (recession cycles being quite predictable), there will be need to my estimation of about 50 more locomotives for freight in Sweden and Norway, which form one big market on practically one rail network (owned by two countries).
There is a big restructuring going on with public sector operators like Green Cargo and SJ loosing small amount of volumes, or at least not growing, while the new private guys with a lot of flexibility and lots of Rcs and other locos, coaches and freight cars (the last two ones are Paneuropean) to use have gained substantial amounts of national and international long distance freights. Also a lot of local operators have replaced SJ of the regional passenger traffic, making Swedish railroading quite colorful and vacating the Rc3s for their next users.
NorthWest Great to hear from you! You have been missed. My few questions: 1. How many locomotives total are up for auction? 2. What is the approximate price range for each? 3. Is there more demand than supply for locomotives, especially as the economy picks back up? Thank you very much.
Great to hear from you! You have been missed.
My few questions:
Thank you very much.
Below two pictures from Gerry Putz. These are ex. Austrian railways Rc2 units now in Sweden owned and operated by TågAB where they were built. Some of the Swedish Rc2 units appear to be built to Rc3 and batch now being auctioned.
Most readers of TRAINS will be intrigued by SJ 1027. Regenerative braking has been used on this side of the pond but rectifier locomotives were equipped with dynamic braking since, until recently, there was no way rectifying DC current from the motors back into AC for the overhead.
The first batch in auction was sold to...HectoRail! No surprise to me at least here. HectorRail is one of the open access (any company can basically run trains anywhere in European Union, rail lines are publicly owned) companies. I would not say any more newcomer as the company is now about 10 years old and has gathered a respectable nearly 100 locomotive unit fleet for its use. These are, as is normal in Europe, mostly electric road locos of all kinds. Diverse fleet does not hurt HectorRail as they are one of the companies with no difficulties on technical adaptations, work arounds and rebuilding just about anything to work for them. HectorRail is backed by the Norwegian Høegh family also owning a sizable Norwegian shipping company.
Now, don't laugh on the U.S. side of the pond: most locos are 4 axled and run individually because of the minimal train length of <2500 feet common in Europe. Also the couplers are still ancient hook and screw type and most of the rolling stock have also side buffers. So buying more 4 axled little lower hp stuff makes perfect sense here. Rcs can also be coupled up to three units together to run steel slab and ore trains if need be.
Here is more technical info on several Rc types and variants if you are interested:http://www.4rail.net/reference_sweden_locomotives_electric1.phphttp://www.4rail.net/reference_sweden_locomotives_electric1.php#sj_rc3
Next a couple of pictures of the locos auctioned:
Above is a very typical ASEA built Rc locomotive (class Rc3) that can basically easily be built to adapt to any use. Only thing missing from these well kept beasts is the energy feedback to overhead wires which is today a norm in almost all of Europe. The newer locos will use their traction motors as generators and feed the electricity back to networks. As far as I know this works well anywhere outside the backward Russia (where they have dynamic brake blowers on trains like Pendolinos to still use the dbs). The Rc3 now bought still have a life expectancy of around 30 years, getting technically obsolete at some point because of the missing dynamic brakes.
HectorRail bought 13 out of 13 auctioned in the first batch. They are now planning to use around 8 of these, the rest being sold probably to their current users (these have been hired out from SJ for years). The sale to Swedish competitors is according to HR company competitor policy if you are wondering why they are doing this. To enlight this more maybe we could say that once you are strong enough marketwise, why would you fear your competitors, they become more or less like partners.
If I did not cover so aspects of the sale, please ask and I'll try to answer. Or if you are interest in any other subjects around this locomotive or similar units.
McKey Now it looks like the Swedish/Norwegian market is all of a sudden full of used electric locomotives. SJ, the government owned passenger operator for Sweden, is shedding 25 of its 27 Rc3 locomotives. These have a documented history and they have been kept in top shape as you can see from the picture below. Rc3 is a true multipurpose electric loco on the lighter side, capable of running up to three units in consist (could be more but the obsolete hook-and-screw coupler used in Europe won't handle more). And since it is part of the Rc family, everyone knows it is trustworthy even in the demanding northern conditions. The first batch of 13 handsomely painted glossy black locos is now for sale and you can bid for those. This sale should be finalized by June this year. Some of the units are already in use at some of the numerous operators in Sweden (training in Sweden is comparable to trucking in U.S., meaning that anyone withing qualification can run trains). I wonder what will happen to these units if the companies running them won't win the bidding. With the European general economic gloom there are already the right number of locos in Sweden now, so I suppose these will be enough for the coming year or so. After that there might again be room for Alp44s. Or if a need to use 15 kV / 25 kV locos at through route Sweden (15 kV) - Denmark (25 kV) - Germany (15 kV) arises, Alp44 are a lot better alternative to Rc3s, which could only run as far as Copenhagen in Denmark / Malmö in Sweden. It will be interesting to see how the sales develop and who are the bidders. Below an SJ Rc3 unit 1062 already coupled to the intermodal freight cars in Stockholm Årsta in 2013. This was in use at Rush Rail on their poor business of running intermodals between Gothenburg and Stockholm. The business owner in now bankrupt and Rush Rail has acquired shielding from its creditors. And here is one of the two "switcher" units remaining for use at Hagalund in Stockholm for the SJ itself. 1027 is still has cool 1990s colors :) .
Now it looks like the Swedish/Norwegian market is all of a sudden full of used electric locomotives.
SJ, the government owned passenger operator for Sweden, is shedding 25 of its 27 Rc3 locomotives. These have a documented history and they have been kept in top shape as you can see from the picture below. Rc3 is a true multipurpose electric loco on the lighter side, capable of running up to three units in consist (could be more but the obsolete hook-and-screw coupler used in Europe won't handle more). And since it is part of the Rc family, everyone knows it is trustworthy even in the demanding northern conditions.
The first batch of 13 handsomely painted glossy black locos is now for sale and you can bid for those. This sale should be finalized by June this year. Some of the units are already in use at some of the numerous operators in Sweden (training in Sweden is comparable to trucking in U.S., meaning that anyone withing qualification can run trains). I wonder what will happen to these units if the companies running them won't win the bidding.
With the European general economic gloom there are already the right number of locos in Sweden now, so I suppose these will be enough for the coming year or so. After that there might again be room for Alp44s. Or if a need to use 15 kV / 25 kV locos at through route Sweden (15 kV) - Denmark (25 kV) - Germany (15 kV) arises, Alp44 are a lot better alternative to Rc3s, which could only run as far as Copenhagen in Denmark / Malmö in Sweden.
It will be interesting to see how the sales develop and who are the bidders.
Below an SJ Rc3 unit 1062 already coupled to the intermodal freight cars in Stockholm Årsta in 2013. This was in use at Rush Rail on their poor business of running intermodals between Gothenburg and Stockholm. The business owner in now bankrupt and Rush Rail has acquired shielding from its creditors.
And here is one of the two "switcher" units remaining for use at Hagalund in Stockholm for the SJ itself. 1027 is still has cool 1990s colors :) .
We've seen several diesels migrate from Australia to the US over the past 15 years. So it must be fairly reasonable if things like the Hamersley Iron SD50's on the Utah Railroad still make financial sense to import.
NorthWestMcKey, there is just no one who wants them, sadly. All the US electric operators have enough units.
SEPTA might but it sounds like they're buying ACS-64's instead to replace their AEM-7's and their ALP-44 or possibly getting rid of locomotive hauled consists completely with more Silverliners.
And the list of potential passenger electric locomotive operators is getting a little bit shorter. MARC is getting enough diesels to cover all their services so their AEM-7's and HHP-8's days are numbered.
There really isn't any obvious use here. If they or some of their components see any reuse, it's probably going to have to be in Europe. And even that appears like it probably has too many hurdles when everything is said and done.
I suspect come 2015 or 2016, we will start to see these parted out and scrapped. But that's just a hunch.
Shipping costs depend on whether you want 1st class or Priority Mail. The post office raised the rates last month. Hey! You haven't heard of the Railroad Post Office?
I think the Danish company Maersk world's biggest container ships Triple-E:s run directly to Gothenburg in Sweden making mowing easier. From where in U.S. I'm not sure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maersk_Triple_E_class
I would suspect comparatively cheap.
Current auctions for automobiles on eBay indicate that RoRo shipping from Europe to, say, Canadian ports will run no more than about $2400 -- in some cases considerably less. The 'footprint' of an ALP44 might not be that much more, assuming the loading gage conforms to the ship's rollway, even if the trucks were separated and the roof electrical components bozed in a container for shipment.
Add to this what I suspect is a mismatch of RoRo traffic between Scandinavian and relevant United States ports... and it might become cheap indeed to do the shipping. I can't speak to the preparation expense at the US end, or the setup upon arrival.
Considerably less, perhaps orders of magnitude less, than a truck move of any great distance in the US...
I suppose the shipping costs can not be prohibitive as some of the rolling stock builders in Europe seem to ship their rolling stock rather than rolling them to the customer by rail... ;)
But seriously, would anyone have an estimate?
NorthWest Shipping costs, too...does anyone have a guess what a per unit charge would be to ship them across the ocean?
Shipping costs, too...does anyone have a guess what a per unit charge would be to ship them across the ocean?
McKey, there is just no one who wants them, sadly. All the US electric operators have enough units.
I'm still wondering why they are not reused in U.S. Knowing quite well that it is an almost all diesel country.
Somehow the Alp44 line looks inviting, just like being ready to be towed to Europe for a coupler change...big pond missing in between.
Thank you for sharing a picture of these!
If they're going to be sold for reuse, it better be relatively soon. Sitting in this environment on the old Lackawanna Cuttoff even properly buttoned up isn't doing them any favors. Each day they sit, reactivation gets a little more expensive not to mention their future reliability takes a hit.
Those $2 million dollar overhauls they were set to receive along with any upgrading and modifications such as if they're sold for overseas use might just be viable. But throw in a few years of disuse causing havoc with things like electrical cabinets, computers, and such could easily turn them into some expensive scrap metal imports as any potential operator starts to dig deeper.
I will! It will be interesting to see how this big auction goes forward here.
NorthWest Please, keep us updated!
Please, keep us updated!
It looks like even the lights are there for Swedish use . This is a true Rc with more handsome features than the original Swedish one. Looks like the loading gauge might also be a bit larger, which would be of no concern in the Nordic countries (but might be a problem at some routes in Germany).
zkr123 These are two pictures of ALP-44's: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=315536&nseq=9 http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=243987&nseq=42 Here are two pictures of AEM-7's: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=361730&nseq=6 http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=281931&nseq=8
These are two pictures of ALP-44's:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=315536&nseq=9
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=243987&nseq=42
Here are two pictures of AEM-7's:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=361730&nseq=6
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=281931&nseq=8
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