Yes, many questions, but I've found that that is the best way that I learn new things! Thanks for the detailed answers and images!
I'd known about Norway, but hadn't heard of Finland's reversal. Hopefully someone will step in to operate freight and stop the traffic decline! Finding equipment always seems to be the biggest challenge.
As to the plow, I am a bit confused, but I think that the plow is hydraulically lowered in front of the buffers to scrape just above the railhead? Interesting to see the English text on the plow. And it is great to see the 1940s-era GM logo on the TMY! Very classy!
In addition to not valuing life, wood is cheaper than metal, and was probably much easier to get in the shortage-prone Soviet system. It certainly has longevity issues!
Hopefully they get Vectrons soon. Has a class number been decided upon for the new units?
Thanks a lot for any answers!
Plus the Hudson and East River tunnels have a rather tight loading gauge. There's a reason the PRR never ran dome cars.
Yes, wood! In Soviet Union human life was not valued too much, so there were many strange solutions on the railroad rolling stock, this being one. As we can remember, splinter of wood killed more men on wooden war ships than direct hits, the same splinter problem is here multplied with the fact that when a wooden structure hits iron (car) in accident situation, the wood will always give in.
Wolves (Sr1/VL40) have wooden doors (tin plating on the outside), above windshields, all flooring and probably many other places I'm not aware of. The major problem has occurred with floors rottening away, and VR crews are complaining on the bogie noise as this now on many units transmits diretly to the cabs! Imagine a large bogie right under you with very little insulation when you run 75 mph!
NorthWest Wood?!? I'm guessing just the body, but wow. I guess it is lighter and cheaper... The Vectrons should also be much quieter. Yes, the tunnel's feasibility may be suspect, as it would be very long!
Wood?!? I'm guessing just the body, but wow. I guess it is lighter and cheaper... The Vectrons should also be much quieter.
Yes, the tunnel's feasibility may be suspect, as it would be very long!
Here is a Russian private transit train of minerals that VR is hauling to Kokkola harbor for offloading to ships. Two most common colorings of the Sr1 is also seen here.
Many question in one post...I'll pick the structural one first:
You remember correct, that Finland along with Norway were hesitant on opening up their rail lines. However, both have now reversed their courses seeing the business attitude replacing the social aspect (like schools, medicare, etc.). Also both countries are reversing their attitudes for monopolies, seeing them as a costly thing from the past. Instead of giving aerial monopolies, they are now letting everyone to run trains on rails too. Earlier this was possible only in the air, rubber wheels and waterways. 180 degree turn around in Finland was caused by new government: the communist traffic minister was replaced by center party (center-right-nationalistic) one. And it looks like she really gets things done.
Below is how European Union runs railways in general. Exceptions do exist for little while more, but this is the obligatory emerging model for _all_ member countries. And countries near or surrounded by EU (like Norway and Switzerland) act alike.
Ownership of rail lines: States/countries
General management of railway lines: Traffic administration (in Swden and Finland this is generic to all tranportation), state politically controlled organization, working according to EU directives (each directive dictates what a member countries laws have to say). This organization also decides on train paths and possible conflicting interests on operators (which are typically not many).
Rail traffic control: national level public organization. Traffic handling on daily basis. Solving out disruptions efficiently.
Ownership of rolling stock: public, semi-public, private and leasing companies along with train operators. Even some museums.
Operations: safety sertificate valid anyone can run anywhere in the national network. Operators pay access fee per axle & kilometer to countries.
Passenger traffic special: typically cities or areas, EU and countries might subsidize some of these to make them possible. Profitable passenger services are run typically only on bigger lines, but not on urban commuter services.
MOW: This is bought by traffic administration from market. Biggest players in Nordic countries are Strukton rail (from Netherlands), Infranord (Sweden), Destia (Finland) and VR Track (Sweden and Finland), but about 50 other companies exist too, some of the guite large.
This is the short version of how things work in Europe. The old way was seen monopolistic and EU is highly antimonopolistic so the change is inevitable.
NorthWest So it seems that Finland split the railways into VR, the operating company, and a maintenence company, but still does not have other operators on the network? If I remember correctly, Finland was very resistant to open access but is now allowing it?
So it seems that Finland split the railways into VR, the operating company, and a maintenence company, but still does not have other operators on the network? If I remember correctly, Finland was very resistant to open access but is now allowing it?
Here is Railcare new snow removal machinery...can anyone guess how they work? ;) from the second picture it might not be obvious.
It is good that northern Eastern Europe is becoming more interconnected. The Iron Curtain did a lot to break trade across East and West Europe, and it is good to see it return.
Thanks for the information and photos.
Thanks for the link. YLE news did not at the time when published have _any_ news in it as the journalist who wrote this obviously is unfamiliar with international trains. But, kauppalehit.fi has much more info: http://app.kauppalehti.fi/uutiset/vrn-uusien-vetureiden-nopeusetu-jaa-vahaiseksi/Z6qB86kC/kauppa
NorthWest For more pictures on the new VR Vectron, see here. It is in Finnish, which I can't read, but the pictures are nice and one can get a good view of the construction of the units. This is the third aesthetic version of the 2006 Siemens cab module, which I'm not sure I like as much as the standard Vectron one.
For more pictures on the new VR Vectron, see here. It is in Finnish, which I can't read, but the pictures are nice and one can get a good view of the construction of the units. This is the third aesthetic version of the 2006 Siemens cab module, which I'm not sure I like as much as the standard Vectron one.
It will be interesting to see how soon the new locomotives will start replace old Russian built VL40s! (VL=Vladimir Lenin) They are rotten in many places. Wood for locomotive construction may have been OK in Soviet Union, but never served well in Nordic area in this purpose.
Can you guess which parts are actually wooden on this beast (which is called Russian Wolf locally)? ;D
Of course, fixing wooden parts after say crash is easy in forested country...
Good question, Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel plan is still there but it seems like everyone is unsure about the price it would cost even if there definitely is a lot of traffic going that way between Finland and Central and Southern Europe. The rock is solid granite and other typical hard rocks until Tallinn, when it turns to soft layered rock that I call clay rock (not sure what it is in English). Lots of research has been made on this route so planning is not the issue.
What makes me doubt about the sense of building is that it is costly and it has also proven that bridge between Sweden and Denmark, and other similar structures are very expensive to pass...even if the travel would take 50 minutes vs. today's 2 hours on express ferry, I have doubts about the effect. If it would turn out to be another expensive miscalculation, people woudl again flock back to numerous megaferries that run between these two cities and freight would divert to other routes.
But: Baltic states have just finished building the dual gauge iron road from Poland to Kaunas in Lithuania (price tag being surprisingly low), and work will progress towards Tallinn one section at a time.
NorthWest McKey, has there been any more work on the proposed Tallinn-Helsinki Tunnel? A Gulf of Bothnia crossing is something I have never really considered but it certainly looks interesting.
McKey, has there been any more work on the proposed Tallinn-Helsinki Tunnel? A Gulf of Bothnia crossing is something I have never really considered but it certainly looks interesting.
Here is a typical pair of ferries pictured in Tallinn harbor. They run about 15 times per direction per day. Travelling takes 2 hours on the fastest ones (as they run ~35 mph), interiors are quite comfortable for 2000 people and 1500 cars aboard.
And PKP InterCity train from Poland will start running the new standard gauge route to Kaunas once upgrading is finished in Poland. This should happen in 10 days or so.
Finnish state, not VR, owns the lines and basically any operator (which have not surfaced yet to passenger traffic) can run the lines. I've always thought the state is stupid not to double gauge the line from the Northern border of Sweden to say Oulu level in Finland as areas are strongly connected economically. Maybe they don't have the vision for the economical benefits of this?
Example on benefit: Malmbana ore trains (with slightly less loaded cars) could run directly to several iron foundries and factories on the Finnish side. Now the ore is transloaded to ships, which run about 100-200 km to several locations, and ore is again transloaded to trucks...
And this is just one industry.
NorthWest Has VR ever considered dual gauging some of their lines, or even converting all of them to standard gauge except for those connecting to Russia? For more pictures on the new VR Vectron, see here. It is in Finnish, which I can't read, but the pictures are nice and one can get a good view of the construction of the units. This is the third aesthetic version of the 2006 Siemens cab module, which I'm not sure I like as much as the standard Vectron one.
Has VR ever considered dual gauging some of their lines, or even converting all of them to standard gauge except for those connecting to Russia?
Picture: all quiet in Haparanda now, an interchange between 1524 mm and 1435 (standard gauge) lines. This is Swedish side with lots of 1524 mm rails there. Station building itself (1/3 shown here) has been turned into expensive hotel.
I was thinking about them for premium express service. I.e. SEPTA and it's ALP44. But you're right it doesn't make as much sense as I thought.
It took a while for me to find this subject on the thread :)
I think the reasons on not using _yet_ today Alp or Rc locomotives are economical. We have two workshops, one in Kristinehamn, Sweden and another in Kuusankoski, Finland, who can give new life to _any_ rolling stock needed. Albeit not quickly as both have a respectable order backlogs. And they are involved in service business too, which has priority one. Siemens gave Finnish VR a very atttractive price on 3,5 million euros pers loco for a Vectron AC 6400 kW _hybrid_ with two aggregates aboard. So it can also haul trains slowly where there is no overhead wire installed. This is basically the same locomotive as ACS64 in U.S., just slightly improved. So for the 1524 mm network, unfortunately the ALPs and Rcs are posponed.
CJtrainguy daveklepper Regarding transformers, Finland would not require rebuilding, possibly some tap modification, possibly not even that. Denmark could probabliy get by with tap modification. Sweden and Norway, new transformers. Maybe transformers would be okay for Finland, but surely the locomotives would need regauging or totally new trucks, since Finland uses Russian broad gauge (1520mm vs 1435mm standard).
daveklepper
Regarding transformers, Finland would not require rebuilding, possibly some tap modification, possibly not even that. Denmark could probabliy get by with tap modification. Sweden and Norway, new transformers.
Maybe transformers would be okay for Finland, but surely the locomotives would need regauging or totally new trucks, since Finland uses Russian broad gauge (1520mm vs 1435mm standard).
Picture of the VR new Vectron, first units arriving for real life testing in March 2016.
The hump at the back is for diesels (one at each corner) and to keep the flying snow out of the machine room.
What an excellent background information for Nordic railroading you have Northwest! It is complicated.
Finland is and has always been part of the West (there is a dividing line just East of Finland, Baltic countries...all the way to current battle zones of of Ukraine that has been there for centuries, or if you like since the Roman period). Country is also a sort of an island from its Western neighbors, and as a result rails have not been developed like they should. In contrast Finland today has an extensive air network outside, plus all the freight is handled by lots of trucks and cargo / combi ships.
I do hope the normal gauge from Sweden (Stockholm area) will someday be extended to Finland, making rail transportation eastward-westwards possible too. This would involve one minor 10-20 kilometer tunnels and lots of island hopping for the road and rail connection. For now this connection is served by a number of huge ferries that run almost nonstop between different cities. For newer generation just unloading+clenaing+loading is needed which takes about one hour for each >1000 passenger ferry! Something I always find quite amazing, espeacially with all those cars loaded there through the ship ramp.
Finnish style road train:
This may not look big, but it is so heavy (with mostly paper rolls in the containers) that Volvo 700 comes into good use.
CJtrainguyMaybe transformers would be okay for Finland, but surely the locomotives would need regauging or totally new trucks, since Finland uses Russian broad gauge (1520mm vs 1435mm standard).
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. When Russia went from 5-foot gauge to 1520mm to change to the metric system, Finland stayed with 5-foot gauge, or 1524mm.
Estonia redefined their gauge after independence to 1524mm as well, probably as a symbolic measure emphasizing the split from Russia.
Allegro services from Helsinki to St. Petersburg split the difference at 1522mm on their Sm6 sets, a gauge that exists nowhere.
zkr123Another place they could go is South Shore for express service between Millennium Street and Gary.
Why? The standard fleet of N-S EMUs is prefectly fine for any express services, which aren't needed anyway.
McKeyMore good news from Sweden: TågAB Rc1 fleet seems to be now 3 units insteads of just one! The deal is this: 1) It appears TågAB got them used for practically free. However, these are totally working production locos, if slightly less powerful than their newer RC cousins (Rc2->Rc6+Rd2+Rm). So when you have one of a kind rolling stock workshop with talented crew and old locos at your doorstep, you can put these to work for you.
Well, that is excellent news indeed! It is much easier to maintain a larger fleet than a single unit. Hopefully they will last a long time, so that I can come see them. There is certainly something to be said for picking up old and decrepit locomotives and fixing them up. It happens all the time in North America.
Thanks for the news, and more is certainly welcome!
daveklepper Regarding transformers, Finland would not require rebuilding, possibly some tap modification, possibly not even that. Denmark could probabliy get by with tap modification. Sweden and Norway, new transformers.
Another place they could go is South Shore for express service between Millennium Street and Gary.
More good news from Sweden: TågAB Rc1 fleet seems to be now 3 units insteads of just one! The deal is this:
1) It appears TågAB got them used for practically free. However, these are totally working production locos, if slightly less powerful than their newer RC cousins (Rc2->Rc6+Rd2+Rm). So when you have one of a kind rolling stock workshop with talented crew and old locos at your doorstep, you can put these to work for you.
Makes me wonder who would buy a new loco when you can get these and others occasionally for a true bargain price? _If_ the buyer is talented enough to maintain the used loco.
2) Locos are said to run until a major event, which makes everyone wonder what that means. Running into truck definitely would be one reason. Replacing truck? Hardly as Rc1 can use directly Rc2 or Rc4 trucks (TågAB seemed to have many of these available last summer). Any other expensive components aboard? Not likely.
Otherwise Sweden and Norway (one common market area) are now full of used Rc2, 3 and 4 locomotives for lease or to buy at the right price. It will be interesting to see where these end up to be used. At the same time Bombardier is pushing next generation (electric+diesel) TRAXXes and Siemens their Vectron all over the area at a price that does not make sense to them.
More good Rc news a little later.
Excellent! I hope I will be able to see it run someday. Similarly, SEPTA's lone ALP-44 is still in service, the last of its kind. I hope to try to go see it somewhat soon, as it will probably be retired when the ACS-64s arrive in 2018.
Excellent that at least that one of the Aem7DC fleet is being preserved! And I'm sorry to hear all the original "Swedish meatballs" are now gone. Hopefully the Alps will stay there for a long time, though knowing how cheap the ACS64/Vectron is I fear too they might replace the veterans at some point.
With the Rc1s there is also a suprise silver liner (as usual): TågAB of Sweden (locomotive works based in Kristinehamn, right in the mid point 9 million population of Sweden) has taken a strategy well suited for a growing company: if you can't buy new locomotives, you can always fix old ones. And they mean it. Their roster is full of economically viable past classes, kept in excellent operating condition an often painted like new locos would be. They also do serious locomotive maintenance for about 20 other operators, so views around locoworks are typically neatly colorful.
This month TågAB started running 6-7 new passenger services, financed by Swedish state. For this purpose they have accumulated an impressive second and third hand locomotive fleet since last year. And one of the locos is...an Rc1 #1014, fixed to almost mint condition! So there is even one in daily running condition. While Rc1 is slightly less powerful than its later cousins, it should not matter in a relatively light passenger duty. This unit supposedly in purpose has been left to its old SJ/Green Cargo scheme, probabaly so that we can remember what things looked like before. This kind of heritage fleet attitude is also part of their philosophy.
Below a picture for a proof, taken from the locoline in use for TågAB in Kristinehamn in August 2015. See how the Rc1 actually has either brand new or totally refurbished truck, though not the front wheel. Behind the unit is seen one of the two Great Northern colored diesels...since it is a long story, I better spare it for later what EMD engined GN locos are doing here....
So Northwest, for the good news, when you get here, you still can see this one unit running (with some effort to find out where it can be found that day).
Sad to see them go; I wish I had seen them in service. At least I should be able to see a preserved one.
I don't know if this was mentioned earlier, but all of the unrebuilt AEM-7s have been taken out of service and many scrapped. One, 915, has been preserved at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. I think that is all that will survive. AEM-7ACs live on for the time being.
As for the title of this thread, the ALP-44s still slumber on, though they are gradually decaying and any attempt to reactivate them in any fashion needs to happen soon.
Meanwhile on the other side of the pond, Green Cargo Rc1s have officially been retired, meaning two units will go to museums and the rest is scrapped. Here two units are seen in Eskilstuna, Sweden at the New Years Eve 2014. What a pitifaul change to death row from their earlier state.
This is what things looked like not longg before, first one is in Hallsberg, Sweden in 2013.
And here the Rc1 is seen in active duty in Kiruna, Sweden in 2009 having just brought in a mixed freight and taking a well earned nights sleep before dash back south.
The coal roads in this context are the utility operators that are currently using E60Cs of various types. The HHP-8s are stored at Bear and won't be scrapped for a while. Amtrak is only leasing them from Bombardier and the term of lease is not up yet.
The HHP8's had reliability issues and I believe that they have already been sold for scrap. Besides, none of the coal roads are electrified.
NorthWest Amtrak appears to have payed $466 million for 70 units, which works out to about $6.65 million USD a unit. (Funny, I expected it to be more. I suspect a bit of the price increase in the SEPTA units is the need to retool the assembly line back after the Chargers are built). With the current low exchange rate, the Vectron works out to about $4.20 million USD a unit. But yes, let's enjoy the Rc series while they last, hopefully for a long time. The 1043 has a half pantograph. It looks like in the pictures one of the SJ Rcs has retains its full pantograph, while the other has a half pantograph. Both Green Cargo units have the full pantograph. Is the half pantograph part of the rebuild package? The coal railroads are fine with the power they have; the E60s were always better freight locomotives anyway and there may be some new NdeM units that have not even seen service. They need C-C power.
Amtrak appears to have payed $466 million for 70 units, which works out to about $6.65 million USD a unit. (Funny, I expected it to be more. I suspect a bit of the price increase in the SEPTA units is the need to retool the assembly line back after the Chargers are built).
With the current low exchange rate, the Vectron works out to about $4.20 million USD a unit. But yes, let's enjoy the Rc series while they last, hopefully for a long time.
The 1043 has a half pantograph. It looks like in the pictures one of the SJ Rcs has retains its full pantograph, while the other has a half pantograph. Both Green Cargo units have the full pantograph. Is the half pantograph part of the rebuild package?
The coal railroads are fine with the power they have; the E60s were always better freight locomotives anyway and there may be some new NdeM units that have not even seen service. They need C-C power.
McKey I'm still wondering why they are not reused in U.S. Knowing quite well that it is an almost all diesel country. Somehow the Alp44 line looks inviting, just like being ready to be towed to Europe for a coupler change...big pond missing in between. Thank you for sharing a picture of these!
I'm still wondering why they are not reused in U.S. Knowing quite well that it is an almost all diesel country.
Somehow the Alp44 line looks inviting, just like being ready to be towed to Europe for a coupler change...big pond missing in between.
Thank you for sharing a picture of these!
For those who are wondering what is the difference with seemingly similar ex. ÖBB and ex. SJ Rc locomotives, look at the headlight in pictures above. Also some differences are easy to found on ditch lights and even a coupler socket. To my understanding you should not look at the pantograph, although in these pictures that also gives a hint of the original country of use.
Well, I managed to dig up some public facts of Vectron (many big private locoleasing companies like MRCE or Railpool don't give out prices). To my great surprise the VR-Yhtymä of Finland 80 Vectron series costs 3,75 million euros / piece! These are brand new state of art 6400 kW AC machines to run under 25 kV wires or other areas with 400 kW of diesel power pack energy (it is suitable for switching, would be crueling on line).
Other bigger players buying standard 15 kV + 25 kV non powerpack version might get those formidable locos even cheaper.
Comparing Vectron to any other modern 4 axle loco its pulling power is better. As a conclusion it would appear the RCs will be gone little by little, so let's enjoy them while we can!
Any estimate on the ACS64 prices for Amtrak? Since it is a public entity I suppose this is not a secret?
NorthWest It is interesting to note that the TågAB train is powered by another Rc derivative; the locomotive is a former OBB 1043 (based on the Rc2) that appears to have recieved some modifications. McKey, thanks for the pictures!
It is interesting to note that the TågAB train is powered by another Rc derivative; the locomotive is a former OBB 1043 (based on the Rc2) that appears to have recieved some modifications. McKey, thanks for the pictures!
Northwest, you have sharp eyes! It is indeed one of the ÖBB 1043s. Below is another ex. Austrian 1043 working for Infranord. Location is Boden, in Northern Sweden. It was very windy and I was trying to discuss the loco with the crew inside. As wind swallowed much of all sound I could hardly hear anything else than that the text inside the yellow unit are still - in Austrian German! Not to matter since German and Swedish are related languages.
My understanding is the main problem with operating freight through NYP is grades in excess of 2.2% and short vertical curves. Apparently tests with coal trains during WWII resulted in a lot of broken drawbars and knuckles. I'd like to see a double-deck tunnel constructed from Staten Island to Bay Ridge to allow the Staten Island Railway to become part of the NYC Subway System and allow freight to better access the former NH Bay Ridge Branch and the rest of LI and New England, but that's best left to another thread.
SEPTA was smart and waited for Amtrak to pay off much of the R&D on these units, but they still will need modifications for commuter service. Interesting details on the used locomotive prices, McKey. I wonder how much more expensive an ACS-64 is over a roughly equivelent AC Vectron.
I'll have to try to make it back to PA to capture them before they are retired.
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