Dr. D,
I do not know when I will be at the museum next (Especially with the upcoming holidays) but when I do get there I will check the locomotive thoroughly for the valve pilot, ect.
The bell, and whistle are at the museum, intact and restored. The cab has also been restored beautifully, but from the ground I'm afraid I can't get up and truly check it out. (I do not work with the restoration crew and do not have the authority to access the cab).
I know the automatic signal relays are still present, as well as the hooks for the poles (Not sure where those are, and I don't think the rerailers are with the locomotive either)
I'm sure the water scoop is there, but I have not thoroughly inspected the 2933.
Will check it out as soon as I get the chance.
-S. Connor
S. Connor,
I would be glad to see any New York Cental Railroad steam locomotive run!
NYC Mohawk 2933 appears entirely more intact, the firebox grates and stoker are intact as is the tender with coal pusher.
NYC Mohawk 3001 in Elkhart, Indiana, however, was built as a passenger engine and the locomotive drive is much finer. The Boxpok Drive Wheels offered much better balance and strength than the spoked drivers of NYC Mohawk 2933, also the side rods on NYC Mohawk 3001 were a light alloy and built from the start for high speed running. Also all the axles ran on roller bearings on NYC Mohawk 3001. As a passenger locomotive it was pretty close to a NYC 6000 Niagara.
So what about NYC Mohawk 2933, is the Locomotive Valve Pilot there or not? It went from storage in a NYC roundhouse direct to the St. Louis museum so it wasn't out on where it could be picked over or stolen. I assume the Valve Pilot mechanism would be intact.
For that matter, what about the bell, and the whistle, and also are all the cab appliances intact? and what about the famous water scoop on the tender? A NYC freight Mohawk should also have a pole and re-railers hung on the side of the tender?
Also a passenger Mohawk such as NYC 3001 should should have been equipped with other special equipment - the "forstaller" and its "reciever" for Automatic Train Control. These were special safety devices used on New York Central Passenger locomotive equipment.
Thanks for checking,
Dr. D
Honestly, in a mechanical sense, I think 2933 would be the better choice to restore and operate. Of course, I'm slightly biased, no expert, and do not know the condition of the boiler, but thats just my 2 cents.
Dr DHow about checking to see how much of this engine accessory remains on the St. Louis NYC Mohawk?
Doesn't really matter. Most components of the Valve Pilot device were standardized. Frisco 1351 in Collierville still has most, if not all, of her Valve Pilot apparatus intact, so even if there were no other instantiations intact on other locomotives, you have patterns to re-create it.
The important custom piece is the cam, and while some care and effort would need to be made to re-create it (and probably some trial and error with 3001 restored and running, to get the fine points of the cam profile established) that is a comparatively small part of the restoration effort.
Didn't someone just win an award for a detailed article on the Valve Pilot? (I can't find any reference on the Classic Trains site, and can't find the notice I remember describing this -- someone please reference it.)
Since you are volunteering at the St. Louis museum and took that great New York Central Mohawk photo, how about finding about the Locomotive Valve Pilot Indicator? This device was used on every "Hudson", "Mohawk" and "Niagara" and can be seen in any photograph of the right side of these locomotives including the Franklin Steam Distribution poppet valve S-2 Niagara.
I am not sure how many other railroads used it but believe it was one of the corporate tools by which Chief Steam Locomotive Designer Paul Kiefer got such performance from New York Central steam locomotives.
So what is a "Locomotive Valve Pilot Indicator?" It's a very early mechanical computer, it was a BLACK BOX hung on the side of the engine just below the air resevoir and power reversing cylinder on the right side of all of the New York Central locomotives that used it. The Valve Pilor Indicator was a mechanism which attached to the locomotive steam distribution valve gear, and was so mounted to display the movement of two needles in a gauge visable to the engineer. There was on this display a dial with two needles one red one black indicating necessary adjustments to the locomotive power reverse mechanism. The engineer adjusted the locomotive steam distribution valve gear for a condition of operation called steam "cut off." This was done to achieve an optimum setting of power and efficiency - when the needles would align. Also included in this mechanism and located in the dial console was a rolling paper reel or tape that also kept track of the settings of the engine and was used for review at a later time.
"Locomotive Valve Cutoff" is a required performance setting of the position of the steam engine cylinder valves to allow the cylinders and boiler to work at an optimum setting of efficiency and power. Enginemen performed this adjustement as the locomotive accelerated. The use of the Valve Pilot Indicator allowed every engineman to run a New York Central steam locomotive at its best power and economy.
In starting the locomotive the engine valve gear would be set at LONG travel to admit steam from the boiler at full pressure for the full length of the cylinder stroke of the piston. As the locomotive accelerated the engine would run faster and with more power and ecomomy if the valve gear stroke was SHORT.
By admission of only part of the steam to the cylinder the boiler supply of steam would be saved and the expansion power of the steam would "run the train" instead of a "quantity or high volume of steam" from the boiler.
It was very easy to damage the locomotive without this adjustment. If it was set too short the exhaust events of the cylinders would not be long enough and the steam pressure would be traped in the cylinders of the engine causing it damage in the "pounding" the machinery.
This piston valve adjustment done by the engineman was called "Working the Cut-off" and was performed by adjusting the engine reversing mechanism wheel or the "Johnson bar" of the locomotive to achieve a short valve stroke.
Alvin Staufer mentions this subject in his book Thoroughbreads,
"Since the J1's usually worked at 65% "cut off" with boiler pressure of only 224 lbs., metal stresses to rods and crank pins was due to enormous mileage rather that "thrust" or "kick".
"The most complex aspect of running a steam locomotive, and that which sets it apart from any other of man's machines, is piston "cut off". This one talent is what separated the good engineers from the bad. It had always been a "seat of the pants" or "feel" technique. Steam admission to power stroke was an endless variable, changing with each different speed and load condition. Its accuracy was imperative at the high speed range. Proper settings meant more ecomomy, more speed and smoother running. Bad settings (usually too much steam to power stroke) were not only wasteful, but extremely damaging to the engine. If you "did'nt have it" you could literally tear your engine to pieces."
"To reduce the odds of human failures, the New York Central installed a device called a Locomotive Valve Pilot on all J1 Hudsons. Externally, it was a box-like apparatus, just below the reversing cylinder with arms or lines extending to the cab and reverse cam. It was a complex, magical device that could correlate the factors of speed and load and then correct valve setting. The engineer had just one gauge with two hands a red for speed, and a black for valve setting. When the black was directly over the red, you were running at best possible cut-off."
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S. Connor - How about checking to see how much of this Valve Pilot Indicator mechanism remains on the St. Louis Museum NYC Mohawk 2933?
There should be a speedometer type dial in a console behind the brake stand located on the back of the boiler in the cab just ahead of the enginemans seat.
There should also be a metal "black box" located just below the power reversing cylinder, on the locomotive right side just below the engine running board and air tank. In historic photos there appears to also be a large steel bracket used in attaching this "black box" to the locomotive frame. This bracket would be found going between the drive wheels on the right side. The Valve Pilot Indicator is not attached or hung from the air tank or reverse cylinder.
There should also be a moving linkage attaching the "black box" to the locomotive reverse mechanism of the locomotive valve gear.
The Locomotive Valve Pilot Indicator "Black Box" appears to be missing on the Elkhart, Indiana NYC Mohawk 3001. I am assuming it was probably discarded when the engine was on display in Dallas, Texas masquerading as a Texas and Pacific Railroad locomotive from the 1950's to the 1990's. This would mean the only other New York Central locomotive with this equipment would be the NYC Mohawk 2933 in St. Louis, Missouri.
Surprisingly, I would say the New York Central Valve Pilot Indicator as used by the railroad was an early "mechanical computer," like one would find in an old fashioned cash register or adding machine. Before computers were electronic they were mechanical.
This would be a cool thing to check up on - and find out what part of it, if any or all remains.
Dr. D.
Whenever I look at railroad tracks, I find it hard to not imagine a steam train roaring down them. I know how you feel.
Dr. D. - you should have never posted you worked on 1225! Im gonna hound you like green on grass about it now! I wasnt fortunate enough to be there but I remember it well the day i got the word 1225 was coming out of the Univ..
There was NO ONE happier in the whole world that day I can promise you! I will take what ever you have, documents, photos, stories, reports, technicals, testaments..... ANYTHING!
Nice photo of the MOHAWK!
I grew up in Mullett Lake, Michigan - a station stop just south of Mackinac. I remember daily looking up the highway when I heard that whistle and seeing that locomotive face! Its a classic.
Today the former New York Central mainline crosses my property - all along the beach - and in the night - in the misty night - if you listen close - the ghosts of those sister engines continue to pass by! I can hear them, I really can!
I believe, that I really do!
Couldn't have said it better myself!
The major reason for this is that 1522 is stored serviceable.
The Mohawk is nearing the end of her cosmetic work and (Don't take my word for this) may be on display by the end of next year.
JOSEPH the steam buffSo..... Did my post get blown over or did my info get mis read......?
Your post wasn't relevant. This discussion is about NYC 3001 in Elkhart. The locomotive at MoT is NYC 2933, and to my knowledge (S.Connor or others will correct me if otherwise) its restoration has always been cosmetic. (MoT would almost certainly bring back 1522 if they wanted to run a Mountain, for a great variety of reasons...)
So..... Did my post get blown over or did my info get mis read......?
Dear Dr D,
You have been there and done that. Everything you said is spot on. As a 49 year IRM steam department observer, I've seen several locomotives out of service because of lack of leadership. We have the engines, the tools, the shop, the turntable (not ready for prime time spinning), the knowledge and we even have WILLING and DEDICATED volunteers, but alas, we have little and few operating days of steam.
The 3001 would be a "one of a kind" locomotive to restore. The northwest Indiana area has a great potential for drawing more than just your normal steam fans.
If you build it, they will come. It's a fact! We need more Dr D's out there!
Honestly. I think the Mohawk is a better looking engine than the Hudson. Forgive the apostacy, but that's just one man's opinion.
On the other hand, I just LOVE the Dreyfuss Hudson's!
Mark this date on your calendar, folks! This may be the first time Schlimm & I have ever agreed on anything!
The NYC Mohawk is truly a stunner --- a real work of art.
Tom
The classic looks of 3001 along with its performance make it a real stunner in the world of restored steam. I hope folks can succeed.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Thanks Paul! When I first read that quote from Secretary Resor it hit me like baseball bat between the eyes. "Ah", I said to myself, "THAT explains a lot!"
As I said, worth the price of the book it came from.
Firelock, I like your last post. I often observed in my working days that the people who wanted the leadership positions the most were usually the worst at it, but I never analyzed the reasons for it.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
National New York Central Museum - Alec
Mayor Dick Moore of Elkhart/and City Atty - dad
Fort Wayne Historical Society - Wayne
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Alec - Gee Dad when can I RUN my train engine NYC Mohawk 3001?
dad - Sorry son I just got it for you to look at, its too dangerous and expensive for you to actually use.
Alec - Aw gee dad! all the other guys have trains and they run them! - and it's better than all the rest!
dad - You'll just have to have fun just looking at it son - and besides your mom feels it is too expensive - you'll just get into trouble with it!
Wayne - Hey Alec when are you going to bring out NYC Mohawk 3001?
Alec - My dad says its too dangerous for me - and it will get broken - and cost money!
Wayne - Cheeze! Whats the matter with him? - Doesn't he know its made to be used? What's the use of having NYC Mohawk 3001 if you can't do anything but watch it rust to junk? My dad lets me run NKP 765 all the time! and MSU Owosso runs PM 1225! You should see all the stuff we do with it!
Alec - I think he and my mom are just afraid and don't want to be bothered with me!
Wayne - Thats too bad Alec a dad should to stuff with his son! What a waste!
Alec - I know - Maybe I will get a new dad one of these days!
Wayne - Yah!
Alec - Just wait till then! - you'll see!
Wayne - Yah! - just wait till then! - NYC Mohawk 3001 will be better than all the rest! - you'll see! - trouble is WE'LL ALL BE DEAD!
I don't think Doctor D's making fun of Elkhart as much as he's swinging a 2X4 to the back of their leaders heads to get their attention.
Leaders that can't lead. A common problem. In that vein, let me pass along a quote concerning leadership (or lack thereof) I read recently that was worth the price of the book it came from. It's from Stanley Resor, Secretary of the Army during the LBJ and Nixon Administrations...
"We get inadequate leaders because the people IN leadership are usually people who desperately want, and ruthlessly compete, for those positions. so the guys at the top are usually just good competitors.
And when havoc strikes, it is the ones who are officially in charge who often freeze or become unhinged. That's when the true leaders, who might not be near the top simply because they have the good sense to avoid competitive, back-stabbing people, rise to the occasion and assume the role of hard, risky leadership that no one else, in a time of crisis, really wants."
Ain't that somethin'?
Dr DCome on lets move out of lollypop land Elkhart! Do you or don't you want to be on the map as part of Americas future? Despotic deciision making will not do here - and gambling casinos are not the only future of the nation - so what about it? What about the railroad Elkhart?
In all humility -- this approach ain't going to get it! Making fun of Elkhart and its people isn't going to make them change, least of all if it's only expressed on an Internet forum!
Put the organization together, get the student interest committed, file and get the 501(c)(3) for the Friends of the 3001 organization, get quotes and terms for the insurance ... in other words, get everything done that needs to be shown to, say, higher-ups in Elkhart. Then go to them with an appropriate presentation, and be proactive rather than negative. You've made some excellent points, and between 1225 and 261 I think much of the work of 'selling' the idea has essentially been done for you already.
I volunteer for what part of the work I can do from here. But you need local 'feet on the ground' with the distinctive competence to work, and the people skills to overcome resistance.
Firelock76, Overmod et al.,
Yes it has been a thrill to have worked on PM 1225 and to realize in a significant way that the steam locomotive is just a machine, a very large machine that had a corporate use to society providing - transportation. By itself it is beautiful and useful in that context. As Union Pacific RR and Norfolk and Southern RR have demonstrated the railroad steam locomotive now has a huge "public relations" roll it can fulfill. Like a great sailing ship such as the US Navy USS Constitution, the steam locomotive can and does draw a huge public following.
To most people a steam locomotive sitting in a park is just so much junk, and rightly so. Whatever good is it? I am grateful that the museums and parks have been safe repositiories for railroad equipment that would undoubtedly not have survived. They are expensive to build and repair, do not surive the weather, and are easy targets for scrappers and vandals who return them to the dust from which they came.
The only real way to keep a railroad steam locomotive into the future is to use it and make money with it. This is something that appears lost on the City of Elkhart, Indiana. Particularly Dick Moore the mayor? Make money with it? This guy doesn't have a clue!
PM 1225 for example has become the heart and center of a huge community involvement in Owosso, Michigan. The people of the city have galvanized around the public relations perspective that "Owosso really does have something to offer in the form of celebration of its heritage of railroading city from the past." It is a civic event that Michigan State University Trust For Railway Preservation has restored the dusty forlorn rail yard into a fantastic place of civic activity. A new turntable and roundhouse have been built. The yard is full of restored and functional passenger trains that folks regularly ride on! When the steam locomotive moves through town with its whistle blowing it stops all the business activity as the entire town turns out for the show. Think about that Elkhart! Why not decide to go on the map as having something significant to offer the larger Chicago community besides your modernized bedroom mendacity!
The governor of the State of Michigan considers the Michigan State Trust For Railway Preservation - operators of PM 1225 - as one of the major tourist draws of central Michigan that stands apart from that of the Great Lakes. A civic reality similar to that of the Colorado tourist event that is the Denver & Rio Grande RR. narrow gauge railroad of south western Colorado.
Yes there is room in northern Indiana civic life for something besides the steel mills of Gary, Indiana or the Miami beach attraction of the Lake Michigan shoreline - you could go on record and do something significant with the railroad that has been your life blood and run across your state for the last 100 years.
So whats going on in Elkhart, Indiana? The mayor of Elkhart, Dick Moore with his indecisiveness has unknowingly I think, placed the National New York Central Railroad Museum at a point of crisis.
This also occured in Owosso, MI with PM 1225 in the Fall of 1985.
Quoting from John Martin, President PROJECT 1225 Fall 1985 newsletter, "Have you ever wondered why in fifteen years, we have been unable to operate the 1125? Or why groups such as the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society, the Strasburg Railroad, or the Valley Railroad of Essex, Connecticut, have steamed their locomotives and often after a few years of work? I know that I have asked myself these questions; as President of the Trust, my job is to ask questions. And then to find answersl What follows is a summary of some initial findings.
First, let us backpedal to 1983. The locomotive is inside the ex-Ann Arbor Railroad backshop in Owosso; surrounded by machine tools designed specifically to repair steam locomotives, the project has come a long way from the "roundhouse in a football field" of our Michgan State University days. Paradoxically, progress on 1225 is slow. The volunteer crew is sparse and dwindling. The engine is still far from testing What is wrong?
In the broadest sense, we had simply failed to keep our efforts trained on the real task: No. 1225. Our management structure, based on the Board of Directors, was incohesive and unable to deal with day-to-day operations; while grappling with these operatonal decisions - something it was not designed to do - the Board was neglecting its true role of establishing long term policy and goals. Personality conflicts played a part, too; project managers, equals on the Board and hence in the field, refused to coordinate their efforts. Each manager sought to promote his own area of interest, without understanding how his responsibilities contributed to the whole. As a natural outgrowth of the Board's vacillation and the unlinked endeavors of the managers, the Trust lost direction. Were we devoted to operating the 1225, or were we dediated to acquiring historic equipment and building a static museum? Finally, and most importantly, we failed to remember our obligations to our members, who are really our customers. Without their unflagging support, none of the progress would have been possible, We were not and are not, exempt from the ground rules of economics; most members will not contribute to a project that fails to deliver, and our membership roles were beginning to reflect that feeling.
This list, in a nutshell, defines what we faced in 1983. Since then, our position has changed, and for the better. Here is what happened.
After much discussion, the Board concluded that management by committee was not working. The beginnings of a true organizational structure were installed to actually run the Trust; problems could be dealt with immediately, instesd of being delayed until the next board meeting. More importantly, responsibility for our operations could be traced to a single chief executive. Instead of being defused over nine Directors. Having divested itself of management decisions, the Board moved to establish long range objectives - which was a welcome change...."
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When I read about the proposal to have NYC Mohawk 3001 restored to running order it seems the Elkhart, Indiana museum and mayoral office of Dick Moore are wandering into a quagmire of "what are their long term policy and goals." What is the public demanding of you Elkhart? What is opportunity demanding of you? What is history demanding of you? - Do we get to see the NYC Mohawk 3001 operate there in Elkhart? Do you really have to take responsibility for this decision? YES - and If not now? - then WHEN?
Come on lets move out of lollypop land ELKHART, INDIANA! Do you or don't you want to be on the map as part of Americas Civic future? DESPOTIC DECISION MAKING WILL NOT DO HERE - and gambling casinos are not the only future of our nation - so what about it? What about the railroad Elkhart?
What a great story Doctor D! Thanks so much for telling it! It's always a thrill to hear from someone who was "there", if you know what I mean.
And you must get a kick out of all those Lionel "Polar Express" sets showing up under Christmas trees. After all, it IS 1225! It's your doing they're there!
Talk about dropping a pebble in a pond and watching how far the ripples go...
Dr DI notice in my reading about Elkhart that Neil Puetz is the Chief Mechanical Officer of the New York Central Railroad Museum there. Well if this is the same Neil that I worked together with in the restoration of PM 1225, well he ran the project.
This post, and the quoted section in particular, changes the dynamic considerably (in my opinion). If you and Neil could put together a similar organization to do the work on 3001, and perhaps establish enough local 'connections' to obtain insurance for the City agencies that might be concerned about safety or the condition of the "asset", I'd think most of the apparent bureaucratic considerations would be resolvable. That might not, in the short run, involve permission to run the restored locomotive... but, as you indicate, the most important part of the effort is the restoration. (I would leave the 1472-day-specific parts of the work, and perhaps anything that would require 'specialist' knowledge or parts, like the air compressors, to the end of the work; I'm sure Neil's planning methods are at least as good as they were for the 1225 project.
Who has contacts at, say, the Purdue campus in South Bend? That might be a logical place to start 'recruitment' and publicity...
Wizlish,
I intended in my post to say something about the pedegree of NYC Mohawk 3001 of a mechanical nature. Mechanically this engine has all the heritage of the great NYC steam locomotives. The balance and condition of the drive wheels. The precision and alloy of the rods and bearings. This is no freight engine. The boiler and firebox design with a large grate area and combustion chamber could and did run the "Water Level Route" passenger trains with ease.
Although I am retired now, as a young man I was involved in the restoration of PM 1225 in East Lansing, Michigan. My membership number was #069. Now how did a group of students at the University start the restoration of PM 1225? Well they just got going out of plain enthusiasm and while they were working on their college studies. We were just a bunch of students who wouldn't take "no" as an answer to the steam locomotive. A project that COULD be completed if it was just started. We just showed up and went to work with one intent and with with NO MONEY!
A retired PM boilermaker took interest in the project and he showed us how to do the boiler and firebox work. This volunteer contribution was the key part! Local licensed heating cooling business tradesmen contributed their skills and enthusiam, as did welders. Everyone was welcome to join the club and contribute all they wanted. I remember when we sat around someone's living room talking about how to replace the cylinder head gaskets out of sheet copper. The piston rings were missing and we had them made by a local tool shop using original blueprints found in the library! We found out where to get what we needed and we went and got it. Eventually we aquired our own library and blueprints and documents for the locomotive. A professional engineer, Ron Crawford from FORD MOTOR joined the club and volunteered to oversee the final finish of the project.
I personally remember hanging the throttle and helping ream the seats of the throttle in the superheater header with a "home made" carbide reamer a couple of engineering students devised. Most ordinary tools you could find anywhere were all that was needed to restore this engine - the larger sizes! What we didn't have was loaned to us by the Norfolk Southern Steam Program.
We worked outdoors at first, and out of an old tool car, but we had determination! We hydrostatic tested the boiler outdoors and steamed it for the first time and passed all the federal inspections, you should have heard the whistle. We then followed with basic maintaince on the running gear. It was not high tech by todays standards, no computor electronics, just built with sweat! We never dropped the drive wheels or bothered with the spring rigging this stuff was all in good order when the locomotive retired needing not much more than lubrication.
To be sure we went through the injectors, feed water pumps and compressors - these things were substancial and they were repairable accessories. We checked them off the list one by one. Removing the draw bar pins took some special work with hydraulics and we did it. The old club newsletters have the story.
We chipped all the rust out of the tank by hand - young guys remember, with boundless enthusiasm! We used to climb into the firebox and eat lunch. Heady stuff! So was climbing under the engine working on the brake rigging.
As with PM 1225 the key to restoring NYC Mohawk 3001 is the boiler - the rest of the locomotive is probably in fairly usable condition as is. I realize the stoker is gone but considering Union Pacific has converted UP 844 to oil fire and is intending to do this with "Big Boy" UP 4014 the removal may be already an advantage.
PM 1225 was a great engine! but NYC Mohawk 3001 well lets just say it just ought to be done. Too many older guys just take no for the answer, they have the skills but not the vision of youth that makes everything possible. Youth have the America of tomorrow in their hands - think of that next time you see PM 1225 - its the real story - they young guys that did it!
I notice in my reading about Elkhart that Neil Puetz is the Chief Mechanical Officer of the National New York Central Railroad Museum there. Well if this is the same Neil that I worked together with in the restoration of PM 1225, well he ran the project. The boundless enthusiasm may already be in Elkhart, Indiana, if so I suspect he is hamstrung by Mayor Dick Moore and city bureaurocrats, and by Elkhart local government! No my bet is "red tape" unwillingness and fear are preventing the restoration of NYC Mohawk 3001 and it can be found in the Dick Moore city government and a contrived city museum structure - amongst the hearts of these petty bureaurocrats. They know only about GOVERNMENT not the romance, history or technology that built America.
It was New York Central managment that destroyed all the New York Central steam power and yet saved NYC Mohawk 3001. It is a similar local governmental managment that now has NYC Mohawk 3001 "locked up" firmly in the questionalble operational future of museum life and Elkhart city government politics! - often that politic of "not taking risk." I bet the Strassburg Railroad and the Amish machinists of Pennsylvania could have NYC Mohawk 3001 running withing 9 months.
It is of note that British rail enthusiasts themselves have just hand built from scratch a 4-6-2 Pacific passenger locomotive similar to NYC Mohawk 3001. The brand new boiler sections were made in East Germany!
NYC Mohawk 3001 has come a long way to survive! NYC Mohawk 3001 now has a new set of parameters governing its future, lets see how long its "bound up in a prison" not of rust, but of government and museum "red tape!"
i am 21. and i info might be wrong..... but, based on what i know is that one of the two only surviving NYC 4-8-2,s. one was moved to either the illionis railway museum or the st. louis transportation museum. ( but i,m shure it the st. louis transpotation museum) it was talked back and forth several times of a cosmetic restoration to a opertional resto. and then to a operational resto. to then a cosmetic resto. as far as i knew it was ( supposed) to be a operational resto. but i have heard nothing for several years. but if it was to be the case. i agree that everyone would be gobbling this up to get more and track it cause it is a NYC 4-8-2 after all.
If you have the staff and financing set up to renovate and operate 3001, by all means contact the museum in Elkhart:
Robin Hume, coordinator, 721 S. Main St., Elkhart, IN 46516; (574)294-3001
My guess would be that about the same level of demonstrable cash in bank would be required for 3001 that the City of Nashville wanted to see for Dixie 576 -- in the range of $4M. The city, understandably, would want to be sure that regardless of any sort of disaster in the restoration or operation of the locomotive, or arising out of any tour or fantrip, the locomotive would be returned to Elkhart in substantially good condition.
I'm sure you could put together an appropriate combination of volunteers and professionals to get the actual job done... but you'll have to get this well established before expecting people in Elkhart to take your idea seriously.
Well some of us feel that history has born out the fact that the New York Central Railroad was the premere passenger railroad in America for most of the last century. Further, its steam power was among the best engineered thanks to Steam Locomotive Design Engineer Paul Keifer and others.
Now whoever wants to run this 4-8-2 should figure that Elkhart, Indiana is not going to let it go into operation without the overcoming of the objections of a disfunctional city government! Why is this such a strange concept to them? If they ran excursions from Elkhart to Chicago tourists would come from all over the world to Elkhart to ride it!
In America it seems odd that a few assorted freight locomotives get rebuilt but the glory of the New York Central passenger fleet goes on rusting in Elkhart! Paul Keifer who designed most of the Central's engines in his book Railroad Motive Power says "Considerable progress has been and is currently being made to reduce these difficulties and resulting delays chargeable to modern reciprocating steam. Roller bearings on axles, crank pins and valve gear, the use of alloy steel for machinery parts, refinements in design and insistance on careful workmanship have been of great help, and the provision of larger ash hoppers has permitted longer runs between servicings..." (p.42)
NYC Mohawk 3001 was among the most modern passenger steam power Central had, and more especially was a "passenger engine!", it was equiped with precison running gear and balanced drive for speed. Further New York Central had more 4-8-2 Mohawk locomotives than any other type, almost 600 compared to 275 Hudsons and a mere 27 Niagaras, which means that this was THE large New York Central steam locomotive most often seen by most folks in America.
Seriously, this "Mohawk" engine had available 5400 horsepower compared to the 4700 horsepower of a "Hudson" and 6600 horsepower of the "Niagara." Length, weight and operating speed were close to the "Hudson" and "Niagara." Surely the "Niagara" was the supreme American steam creation, but the "Mohawk" was one of Paul Keifers works and a close second.
Couple of facts from his book,
Engine and tender wheelbase - Hudson 83 feet - Mohawk 95 feet - Niagra 97 feet
Piston Thrust - Hudson 109,300 lbs - Mohawk 127,700 lbs - Niagra 140,000 lbs
Horsepower - Hudson 4700@77mph - Mohawk 5400@76mph - Niagra 6600@85
Engine weight per cylinder hp - Hudson 77 lbs - Mohawk 74 lbs - Niagra 71 lbs
I think it is pretty obvious that this engine was among the best of New York Central passenger power. Lets get busy and get it running again and make a case to Elkhart that moves them off their dead ass and includes them in the party! Mayor Dick Moore - your a putz - wake up and smell the coffee! Give up your freak control issues - give your city a great tourist attraction! - and give me a break - time to sign up for the future - like Cheyene, Wyoming and like Union Pacific does!
Doctor D
The last news I heard on the project was a reluctance on the part of the City of Elkhart to agree to terms proposed from two individual ventures. They wanted to lease the locomotive for a monthly fee paid to the museum and term of 15 years, the same time frame as an FRA boiler inspections. The city felt that was too long a time for the locomotive to not be in Elkhart and may have an influence on museum visitors. Once returned to the museum after 15 years another effort would then have to be made to keep her running, again. Apparently running the locomotive was not going to be a benefit to the city. Politics played a part in this and may have curtailed any efforts moving forth. If anything has occured since it has not been made public.
Does Anyone Have Any Updates or Leads on NYC 4-8-2 #3001 in Elkhart,IN? Haven't seen much news about her and was wondering what the deal is and why people are hiding away from her being shown on a trip for her rebuild. Any Thoughts, Input or Leads? Thanks
I keep up on lots of railroad museums and there is nothing out there to suggest that the Mohawk has left Elkhart. There was a plan (scheme) a few years ago to restore it to running operation, but like most plans to restore a large steam engine to operation, it fell through.
Steve
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