kgbw49 Sounds like you have spent some time behind The Cheddar Curtain! It is sort of like The Iron Curtain, but instead of pledging loyalty to the Politburo in Moscow, you have to root for the Packers, gosh darnit doncha know.
Sounds like you have spent some time behind The Cheddar Curtain!
It is sort of like The Iron Curtain, but instead of pledging loyalty to the Politburo in Moscow, you have to root for the Packers, gosh darnit doncha know.
Bear down, Chicago Bears!
schlimm Cheeseheads have no sense of humor.
Cheeseheads have no sense of humor.
Having been born in Chicago, I can see where a person whose Wisconsin experience is limited to the Mars Cheese Castle on I-94 reaches such a conclusion
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Paul Milenkovic Here in 'Sconsin, we have long given up on reality. We hold on to a sense of humor . . . Better not quit your day job.
Paul Milenkovic Here in 'Sconsin, we have long given up on reality. We hold on to a sense of humor . . .
Better not quit your day job.
Excellent advice, especially when persons from outside the state without a sense of humor make for a "hard room."
kgbw, got your Powerball ticket for tonight? Me too!
As Clint would say, "Do you feel lucky?"
Love that photo you posted, man that says it all!
To borrow the title from one of Clint Eastwood's early movies:
For a Few Dollars More
The way I heard the story, the original site at the mouth of the Chicago River was a swampy, boggy area where a lot of wild onions grew. The name is said to be a corruption of a Native American term meaning "onion place" or some similar meaning. I guess the connectioin between "onion" and "smelly" may be valid. As many are aware, large areas of the Chicago shoreline are actually landfill.
Tom
I heard the name Chicago comes from an old Indian word, "chick-a-goo", meaning "smelly river." Is that true?
Paul MilenkovicHere in 'Sconsin, we have long given up on reality. We hold on to a sense of humor . . .
schlimm Dr D Well Gee! - My son is a public defender attorney in Chicago. Seems he has a legal case to represent a couple of fellows who robbed a bank in Chicago, Illiniois then fled through several towns in Indiana before they were caught in a momentous high speed chase involving all the state and municipal law enforcement departments. How shall I resolve this massive community effort in light of such posts? 1 - Chicago, Illinois like Gaul should not cooperate with "that other state" of disrepute - aka Indiana - in regard to apprehension and prosecution of the crime? How could they - yes they - know how to do anything in Indiana? 2 - Chicago, Illinois should lower its high and mighty statehood standards to dane to deal with said hillbillies from Indiana. 3 - Indiana persons living in said hinterland should realize that when they journey to the far off Emerald Green City of Oz - aka Chicago, Illiniois - that they are welcome only as "scuff necks" from such wayward places and should, and will be be handled accordingly. 4 - Next time I am on the Illinois/Indiana/Ohio/Pennsylvania Turnpike I will be sure to slow down put my Jeep in 4 wheel drive to cope with the wagon ruts of passage past that glorious Illinois frontier border. Yes, Thanks for setting me straight! Doc Sounds like you could use a dose of reality.
Dr D Well Gee! - My son is a public defender attorney in Chicago. Seems he has a legal case to represent a couple of fellows who robbed a bank in Chicago, Illiniois then fled through several towns in Indiana before they were caught in a momentous high speed chase involving all the state and municipal law enforcement departments. How shall I resolve this massive community effort in light of such posts? 1 - Chicago, Illinois like Gaul should not cooperate with "that other state" of disrepute - aka Indiana - in regard to apprehension and prosecution of the crime? How could they - yes they - know how to do anything in Indiana? 2 - Chicago, Illinois should lower its high and mighty statehood standards to dane to deal with said hillbillies from Indiana. 3 - Indiana persons living in said hinterland should realize that when they journey to the far off Emerald Green City of Oz - aka Chicago, Illiniois - that they are welcome only as "scuff necks" from such wayward places and should, and will be be handled accordingly. 4 - Next time I am on the Illinois/Indiana/Ohio/Pennsylvania Turnpike I will be sure to slow down put my Jeep in 4 wheel drive to cope with the wagon ruts of passage past that glorious Illinois frontier border. Yes, Thanks for setting me straight! Doc
Well Gee! -
My son is a public defender attorney in Chicago. Seems he has a legal case to represent a couple of fellows who robbed a bank in Chicago, Illiniois then fled through several towns in Indiana before they were caught in a momentous high speed chase involving all the state and municipal law enforcement departments. How shall I resolve this massive community effort in light of such posts?
1 - Chicago, Illinois like Gaul should not cooperate with "that other state" of disrepute - aka Indiana - in regard to apprehension and prosecution of the crime? How could they - yes they - know how to do anything in Indiana?
2 - Chicago, Illinois should lower its high and mighty statehood standards to dane to deal with said hillbillies from Indiana.
3 - Indiana persons living in said hinterland should realize that when they journey to the far off Emerald Green City of Oz - aka Chicago, Illiniois - that they are welcome only as "scuff necks" from such wayward places and should, and will be be handled accordingly.
4 - Next time I am on the Illinois/Indiana/Ohio/Pennsylvania Turnpike I will be sure to slow down put my Jeep in 4 wheel drive to cope with the wagon ruts of passage past that glorious Illinois frontier border.
Yes, Thanks for setting me straight!
Doc
Sounds like you could use a dose of reality.
Here in 'Sconsin, we have long given up on reality. We hold on to a sense of humor . . .
Thanks for the thorough inventory. Hopefully some of the same sort of realistic visionaries that restored those engines will find a way to rescue 3001 from its limbo and restore it to glory.
Thanks, Selector! You know, when one thinks about the "inventory" of restored steam, it seems like the absence of a representative of the two titans of the Northeastern US - New York Central and Pennsy - is a gaping hole.
We have 611 operational and maybe someday again 614 representing Super Power passenger service in the mid-Atlantic states, and 1309 and 734 representing pre-Super Power in that region. We have 4501 and 630 representing freight power from the south. We have 765 and 1225 representing Super Power freight hogs of the industrial Midwest-Pennylvania heartland (soon to be joined by 2100), and 261 representing dual service Super Power of the Upper Midwest and Grainger roads, along with 1003 representing the same pre-Super Power. We shall soon have 2926 representing dual service Super Power of the Transcontinental Southwest, and we have 3415 representing Great Plains passenger power (would love to see that doubleheading someday with 2926). We have 3751 and 4449 as additional representatives of "California-style" passenger service Super Power, and 700 as dual service Super Power of the upper Northwest. And of course we have 844 (hopefully soon) and 4014 and 3985 (eventually) representing mountain-climbing Super Power of the Rockies. And I am sure I am leaving some other great locomotives off this list.
But there is no NYC Mohawk or Pennsy M to represent those roads that so dominated the rail industry north of the Ohio River from Illinois to the Hudson River.
So it would seem if there ever is an effort to restore something different than what is already in our operational "collection" in the United States, apologies to the T1 Trust and their magnificent and audacious effort, but the NYC 3001 is most certainly a worthy candidate for that mantle.
Now, if I just hit that Powerball.........
The Bard of the High Iron does it again! Thank you, Dr. D, for sharing those tremendous memories! It must have been something to actually see and hear those exhausts cracking off the miles! Greatly appreciated! Thanks again for a most enjoyable read!
kgbw49 Dr. D, it sounds like you might have had the opportunity to see Mohawks in regular service? What made the Mohawk so valuable to NYC that they invested so heavily in them? It seems really ironic that "Mountains" were so popular on the Water Level Route. Might you have some insights to share on the Mohawk on the New York Central? Thanks for any thoughts you'd be willing to share!
Dr. D, it sounds like you might have had the opportunity to see Mohawks in regular service?
What made the Mohawk so valuable to NYC that they invested so heavily in them?
It seems really ironic that "Mountains" were so popular on the Water Level Route.
Might you have some insights to share on the Mohawk on the New York Central?
Thanks for any thoughts you'd be willing to share!
The L series comprised an intermediate step between the J series Hudsons and the S series Niagaras. The Mohawks generated 12K lbs more tractive effort than the Hudsons, so they could handle the longer trains, including passenger trains. This was important during the war before the Niagaras came on board when large numbers of passengers needed to be moved.
ACY Dr. D., you're probably right that the Illinois/Indiana Divide makes little sense. But the fact that it exists is undeniable. As for the name "mountain" as applied to the 4-8-2, it goes back to C&O's use of the type to handle passenger trains in mountainous areas. Those same trains were handled by 4-6-2's in more level territory. Later, the Mountain type was refined by NYC, I.C., and others to become very fast engines on less mountainous lines. NYC was probably the only road that changed the name to reflect its later high speed water level role. Tom
Dr. D., you're probably right that the Illinois/Indiana Divide makes little sense. But the fact that it exists is undeniable.
As for the name "mountain" as applied to the 4-8-2, it goes back to C&O's use of the type to handle passenger trains in mountainous areas. Those same trains were handled by 4-6-2's in more level territory. Later, the Mountain type was refined by NYC, I.C., and others to become very fast engines on less mountainous lines. NYC was probably the only road that changed the name to reflect its later high speed water level role.
The divide is not just an artificial border. It can also be seen in attitudes, in much the same way as many folks in NYC look down on folks across the Hudson. But Elkhart, Indiana is simply not part of Chicagland and the residents of Elkhart would agree.
kgb49
Ha! Ha! - here goes!
I do remember as a small child living within ear shot of the two Michigan Central grade crossings - and I myself crossing the road in front of our house to go to our beach at Mullett Lake.
Hearing the train coming and watching up the road as a NYC 2900 series freight Mohawk was pulling a train south. The Mohawk was a beautiful engine and big. The NYC "Mohawk" was really a 4-8-2 "Mountain" wheel type, but Central insisted there were no "mountains" per se on the "Water Level Route."
I also remember the small station at Mullett Lake Village - which is still standing - now a cottage on the lake. A haunted spot filled with the memories of the coming and going of people in the past. The lingering last goodbye's fill the place today.
There my parents took me on an evening summer walk at 9PM to see the night train go south from Mackinac to Detroit. First the headlight then the onrush of the train. The uneasy stop and my dad taking me to look at the immense drive wheels - I was holding a cat which at that moment jumped from my hands and ran in front of the engine. My dad saying - "There goes your cat better go after him." At six years old and sizing up the situation I can remember telling him I was to young to attempt this and might get hurt.
I also remember traveling in the car to Cheboygan and being overtaken by that great black 4-6-4 Hudson coming upon us going north as the road and track ran parallel and crossed. I can see today the imprint on my mind of that famous pilot, boiler front and largeness of that Hudson - almost as big and long as the Mohawk - it was indeed a fleet fast engine and styled as only New York railroaders could give a locomotive grace. Yes imagine such trains running far into northern Michigan past our lake - we were so lucky to have such rail service.
Finally, there was the time mom was taking us north for summer vacation and decided because of the youth of my sister and I, that we would go by Pullman Car berth and on the evening train north from Detroit. Dad took us to the Michigan Central Station - he was just back from WWII not 10 years. And he knew train travel. He got us onto the last car of the train which was a Pullman with upper and lower berths. Mom had a lower and we were to sleep with her on the white sheets behind the heavy curtains. Real exciting stuff! Dad took me to the door at the end of the train and opened it - we looked down the station tracks in the dark. He said "When the train gets going come back here, open the door, and look at the train as it runs and the tracks disapear backwards."
I can remember how hard it was to sleep on the train that night as it pulled out of the station and ran through the miles and miles of rail yards running north of Detroit - so many boxcars and so many crossing gates with red flashing signals to pass. And how that Hudson accelerated the train - it flew forward with a grace like a powerful car does. Later venturing out at dad's instructions - yes mom - the door at the end of the train was locked - and I couldn't see the view as dad promised. I think mom was glad to get me settled for the night. But the view of the heavy curtains running down the car aisle was memorable - and the car was heavy with sleep.
In the morning we went through the vestibules with mom on the way to the dining car. It was an alarming passage through a steel labrynth to go from the one car to the next and so noisey compared to the quiet of the passenger cars when the doors shut. The anticeptic diner provided milk and cereal and we were asking mom continually - "Are we there yet? When will we get there?" Visions of the lake in our minds. The conductor announced unsatifactorally that it "Would be a while yet." I never saw that sleeping Pullman Car again as it had transformed into an unrecognizable coach.
Finally, the train stopped in the middle of nowhere for the longest time. When the conductor came through again an inquiry about the delay provided the half believable answer "The train hit a deer and we had to get it off the track." I pondered the foolishness of deer playing on the track among the green summer leaves and wondered if the engineer had his rifle in the cab and was going to be taking it home for the trophy case. Apparently, on this far end of the railroad there was no hurry to prevent the taking of game from the engine.
Finally, on arrival at Mullet Lake Station we stepped off of the Pullman car vestibule onto the step stool - late on a bright summer morning. I strained to see the engine at the head of the train and couldn't, and had to settle for the faint smoke plume rising above us. Little did I know that this hallowed ground we were stepping onto beside the tracks would later be the land which I would purchase and was to be my lake front beach today.
When I go to Elkhart, Indiana and see Mohawk NYC 3001 - I marvel that only one such magnificent engine has been saved! - and I can stand on the right side of the locomotive looking at the drive wheels - and feel my cat still jump from my arms and run in front of the engine pilot. And I can still hear my dad saying - "There goes your cat Dave - better run and get it. Go right away and it will be safe."
And ponder the seven year old child's wisdom of not stepping in front of such an iron horse of transportation as New York Central provided to grace MY RAILROAD - yes mine! and the memories of my youth!
They were a grace to behold - among the summer trees and along the blue lake - the running at speed of the New York Central's steam locomotives! And when it was summer for young boys - was it ever less exciting?
I was in Elhkart a couple of months ago and spent a little time wandering around the museum site. I think the engine was there, but they have it stored in such a way it is very difficult to even look at the engine. Not sure why. And they do have two steam railroad cranes that appear very interesting but there is no access.
Neither the Chicago MSA nor CSA include Elkhart. Michigan city is about as far as the stretch goes, with Kenosha at the other extreme. Rockford is not included. And many folks commute from the Kenosha area into the northern suburbs.
The intern has obviously never resided in or near Chicago. For openers, Illinois, like Gaul, is divided into three parts: Chicago, the suburbs, and downstate. As far as metropolitan politics and policies are concerned, Indiana and Wisconsin are not even part of the pot. Wisconsin is too far away, anyhow.
The Chicago city limits may abut the Indiana state line, but for social, political and cultural reasons, Indiana might as well be Mars. I grew up in Chicago about a mile and a half from the state line and about three miles from downtown Hammond IN. Northwest Indiana is its own metro area and interactions across the state line into Illinois are not that important. NICTD is not an interstate entity like the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, it's an Indiana entity that happens to run into Chicago. Except for NICTD, there is minimal transit service of any kind that crosses the state line.
If Elkhart is part of the Chicago metro area based on its "proximity" to Chicago, then the same could be applied to Rockford, Milwaukee and South Bend.
Maybe thw museum billing itself as the National New Hork Central Museum would have at least some additional funds for this project if they hadn't spent money purchasing and transporting to te muaseum site a PRR GG-1 electric loco!
Poetic, yet maudlin and unrealistic. You clearly do not know Chicago.
I was out to Colorado this summer and had a chance to see the Rio Grande narrow gauge railroad run from Antonito to Chama. This extremely rural wilderness area is a significant tourist and railfan attraction in the United States in spite of its largely inaccessable location. The State governments of Colorado and New Mexico were involved in saving the narrow gauge system as historically significant because of the passion they have and possess for THEIR LAND and its part in the rail history of THEIR state. This I believe precluded allowing that historic rail treasure from disapearing. Yes you can go and see the still authentic WILD WESTERN community today.
And what about Chicago finding some sense of ITSELF as the railroad and transportation capital of the nation. In the celebration of its historical tradition? I can't help but thinking of Carl Sandburg's poem,
Chicago - "Laughing the stormy, brawling, husky laughter of youth, half naked, sweating, proud to be Hog Butcher, Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat, Player with Railroads and Freight Handler to the Nation."
Seems to me Elkhart is as much a part of the larger than life Chicago metropolitan community as anywhere. Yes, imagine a city so large that it encompasses three states, and each unique state government, as well as numerous municipalities, and miles and miles of utilites, water, power, shipping, transportation and factories. Yes, Elkhart, Indiana maybe 100 miles from downtown Chicago but so is everywhere else in Chicago!
Yes it's really about hometown America waiting for a rebirth. Yes, how does a place seared by its past find its future? How does it move on, even as the nation as a whole is constantly burying its history everywhere? Or of forgotten downtowns ringed by cake-box superstores with aircraft carrier parking lots and terrific discounts on six-packs of socks. Yes, how I am reminded of this as I drive past the the predictable sprawl of franchise outlets and equally modern architectural felonies.
I am a nostalgic who likes the history and surprise of old friends meeting by chance outside a building older than their two combined lifetimes. And I like the rumors of regulars at the corner lunchonette. So The National Trust for Historic Preservation helps such towns reclaim their heritage through its "Main Street Program for the resurrection of the American downtown." Whose ongoing business is vacent storefronts reopening, and continual trumphs over rediculous zoning restrictions and blockhead municipal indifference.
Yes railroads were located where they were needed, and it was expected that civilization would follow after them. Across the continent, in hundreds of places were the origins of prosperity - all owing to steam locomotive services and their terminals. Such locomotive facilities were the projection of technology into the American wilderness. Ever expanding across those frontiers like Indiana, and Illinois, and Wyoming were such shops that were the only places within miles featuring metalworking skills, utilities, communication, and sophisticated capacities.
Before the age of high tech communication and before the age of computorization such rail facility as Elkhart, Indiana offered were regarded by rail officals as reliable control points - because knowing where a given locomotive or crew was often just so much speculation - but all knew that sooner or later, every engine and crew would show up to be counted, inspected, serviced, and kept track of.
Such was New York Central and the life it gave to Elkhart, Indiana.
How fortunate that such a town near, yes very near to Chicago should retain part of this its most famous heritage and noble American heritage - how appropriate we should entertain the conjecture, - that knowing city fathers should recognize this and move in appropriate steps to reclaim and celebrate such a heritage.
I should be so lucky as to have two tracks and a whiste let alone authentic steam passenger locomotive such as NYC 3001 to claim as a living part of my community heritage.
Dr DThe four track main line and right-of-way of the Great Steel Fleet flowed from Chicago to New York right thru Elkhart, Indiana, that's right the "Empire State Express" and the "Twentieth Century Limited" in all seven section flowed thru Elkhart every day for over 40 years.
Actually the Empire State Express never ran west Cleveland.
Dr DFourth, Elkhart is the outlying town from Chicago, Illinois with its millions and millions of people just waiting to have a chance to come to Elkart and ride a historic and operational steam locomotive like NYC 3001 - this is an outstanding and sustainable population base for a truely heroic railroad locomotive operation like NYC 3001.
Elkhart is 101 miles by train (111 by car) from Chicago, hardly an outlying town, and definitely not a significant tourist destination for its "millions and millions."
I hope 3001 can be restored but it will require more realistic planning by some group of volunteers, as the other restored engines did.
27 seconds of "What If" starring Elkhart's very own 3001
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgPAJa39UMQ
schlimm Given the party affiliation of Moore's successor, it seems unlikely restoring and operating 3001 would fit in with his agenda. Maybe he will sell it to you? Otherwise it may well head to the scrapper in a budget-cutting orgy.
Given the party affiliation of Moore's successor, it seems unlikely restoring and operating 3001 would fit in with his agenda. Maybe he will sell it to you? Otherwise it may well head to the scrapper in a budget-cutting orgy.
That long quoted CV sure did't give me any warm fuzzys that things were going to get any better.
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