Continental European Railway Operations

[Anonymous]

"The same advances in technology that make 3-phase asynchronous traction motors possible also means that simple frequency convertors are affordable for each substation eliminating the requirement for a separate distribution network. So 16.7Hz is more expensive, but not greatly so."

Well, this technology was not at hand for the Frankfurt--Siegburg (Cologne) high-speed line, opened thee or four years ago, for which (I quote from memory) around 450km dedicated high-voltage power lines had to be established to feed the substations. Which cost around 350 Mio Euro extra.
Cost differential for operating cost is around 10-15%, due to higher maintenance and losses.

Once the old "direct current"-engineered  locos are all dead and replaced by three-phased  models, it is more logical to gear these to accept 50Hz, which is relatively easy, than to use modern technologies to feed outdated current.

It was certainly still more of a stupidity to retain 16 2/3 for this Frankfurt-Cologne electrification, as the "TGV like" profile choosen for it, with grades of 4%, preludes its commercial utilisation by any other Deutsche Bahn equipment than the ICE3. Which Deutsche Bahn is eager to buy in a dual voltage version also, be it only to reach Brussels and Paris under 50Hz.
If the only trains allowed on the line are to be equiped progressively to accept 50Hz as well, it makes no sense to feed the line with any other juice than 50hz! But german trainology has always been marked by ideologies.... 

Resitsa

[beaulieu]

"The same advances in technology that make 3-phase asynchronous traction motors possible also means that simple frequency convertors are affordable for each substation eliminating the requirement for a separate distribution network. So 16.7Hz is more expensive, but not greatly so."

Well, this technology was not at hand for the Frankfurt--Siegburg (Cologne) high-speed line, opened thee or four years ago, for which (I quote from memory) around 450km dedicated high-voltage power lines had to be established to feed the substations. Which cost around 350 Mio Euro extra.
Cost differential for operating cost is around 10-15%, due to higher maintenance and losses.

Once the old "direct current"-engineered  locos are all dead and replaced by three-phased  models, it is more logical to gear these to accept 50Hz, which is relatively easy, than to use modern technologies to feed outdated current.

It was certainly still more of a stupidity to retain 16 2/3 for this Frankfurt-Cologne electrification, as the "TGV like" profile choosen for it, with grades of 4%, preludes its commercial utilisation by any other Deutsche Bahn equipment than the ICE3. Which Deutsche Bahn is eager to buy in a dual voltage version also, be it only to reach Brussels and Paris under 50Hz.
If the only trains allowed on the line are to be equiped progressively to accept 50Hz as well, it makes no sense to feed the line with any other juice than 50hz! But german trainology has always been marked by ideologies.... 

Resitsa

Are you sure about that?

Resitsa take a look at this document on the ABB website

Limburg Static Convertor Station

[beaulieu]

SNCF fret has started route learning from Dollands Moor with one of their formerly stored Class 92 locomotives. Could be interesting.

[Anonymous]

"Are you sure about that? "

I find different indications about the extent of the "Bahnstrom" power lines set up for the NBS Cologne-Rhein-Main. They vary between 110km and over 400, which might involve beefing up the lines to the substations near Siegburg and Frankfurt (see page 74 of  the following paper, regarding the "south end" in Hessen)

www.rpda.de/dezernate/regionalversammlung/lb_rov_ice.pdf

 Besides, the installed "conversion" power in Limburg does not appear to cover more than two ICEs accelarating uphill. I thus suspect that the ABB equipement is only feeding the lesser part of the required energy.

I also find that the question whether feeding new lines which only new-technology trains will be able to use with "non-compatible" frequency for the sake of locomotives of generations gone has been raised in german Parlament.

Resitsa

"Abgeordneter Dr. R. Werner Schuster (SPD) Welche Konsequenzen zieht die Bundesregie- rung daraus, daß durch das eigene Bahnstrom- netz entstehende jährliche Verluste und Unter- haltungskosten von ca. 100 Mio. DM vermieden werden können und durch die mit hoher Wahr- scheinlichkeit in einiger Zeit weitgehende Libe- ralisierung des Strommarktes aufgrund des Durchleitungsrechtes für Fremdbezug über das internationale Verbundnetz bei Strompreisdiffe- renzen von z. B. 5 Pf/kWh zwischen Deutschland und Frankreich beim derzeitigen Stromver- brauch der DB AG zusätzliche Kostenersparnisse von ca. 400 bis 450 Mio. DM jährlich möglich sind und damit bei einer Umstellung der Bahnstrom- frequenz auf 50 Hz und Bezug über das öffent- liche Verbundnetz Gesamtersparnisse von über 500 Mio. DM jährlich erreicht werden können und insbesonders für die Hochgeschwindigkeits- strecke Köln - Frankfurt daher eine eigene Bahnstromleitung technisch überhaupt nicht not- wendig ist? 67. Abgeordneter Dr. R. Werner Schuster (SPD) Welche Konsequenzen zieht die Bundesregie- rung daraus, daß nach den Angaben des Bundes- ministeriums für Verkehr die Umstellung der Bahnfrequenz auf 50 Hz einen Investitionsauf- wand von über 10 Mrd. DM für Lokomotiven und stationäre Anlagen erforderlich macht, aber gleichzeitig in dem beschlossenen Investitions- programm bis zum Jahre 2000 26 Mrd. DM für Lokomotiven und Fahrzeuge enthalten sind, die dem Stand der Technik angepaßt bzw. wegen Überalterung erneuert werden müssen und dies auch für die überalterten örtlichen Energiever- teilanlagen gilt und bei Abzug der Wiederbe- schaffungssummen für Lokomotiven und örtli- chen Energieverteilanlagen von den genannten 10 Mrd. DM nur noch geringe Beträge übrig blei- ben, denen die unter Frage 66 erwähnten, weit über dem Jahresgewinn der DB AG liegenden Ersparnissen entgegenstehen und mit den Ersparnissen nach Frage 66 evtl. Mehrkosten für geringere Neigungen auf der NBS Köln - Frank- furt finanziert werden können und nach den Ver- einbarungen zwischen Bund und DB AG entspre- chend der Bundeshaushaltsordnung Zuschüsse nur für Investitionen gewährt werden dürfen, deren Wirtschaftlichkeit durch Variantenver- gleich nach der Kapitalwertmethode und den von Prof. Ahlbach entwickelten Grundsätzen fest- gestellt wird?"

[owlsroost]

SNCF fret has started route learning from Dollands Moor with one of their formerly stored Class 92 locomotives. Could be interesting.

The expected response to EWS operations in France I guess....

According to a UK newspaper article recently, a more pressing problem is that the UK government is about to stop paying the 'minimum user charge' (a subsidy, basically) for freight trains through the Channel Tunnel, so EWS and SNCF have start paying about 32 million GBP a year to Eurotunnel themselves if they want to carry on running freight trains through it. At the current usage level of about 4000 trains per year, this equates to 8000 GBP per train - totally uneconomic, so at the moment EWS is saying it will stop running international trains in November unless a solution is found....

The current issue of 'Today's Railways' European edition has an editorial comment about the recent first run of a block cereals train in France by Euro Cargo Rail (EWS in France). Because of problems with one of the Vossloh locos it took 48 hours for the out and back trip (500km each way). A local newspaper reporter phoned the customer for comments afterwards (probably expecting criticism of ECR) and was told that they were very pleased with the service - because it usually takes 8 or 9 days for SNCF to do the same thing !!!

Tony

[beaulieu]

"Are you sure about that? "

I find different indications about the extent of the "Bahnstrom" power lines set up for the NBS Cologne-Rhein-Main. They vary between 110km and over 400, which might involve beefing up the lines to the substations near Siegburg and Frankfurt (see page 74 of  the following paper, regarding the "south end" in Hessen)

www.rpda.de/dezernate/regionalversammlung/lb_rov_ice.pdf

This document appears to be the Evironmental Impact Statement. The section you point out appears to be where they are obtaining the power. The lines described are feeders to bring more power into the area of the NBS. The "Nibelungenbahn" is a non-electrified line connecting the Main-Neckar Bahn at Bensheim with the Reidbahn at Hofheim. The idea seems to be to draw power from the powerstation near Biblis and then route the new feeder over to the Main-Neckar Bahn and thence up to the Neubaustrecke, there must be some reason not to take the more direct Riedbahn. The DB appears to be taking the opening of the NBS as an opportunity to upgrade power supplies for the whole region. They cannot merely divert the needed power from the Rheinstrecke due to growth of freight traffic replacing the diverted passenger trains, so as part of the project they are installing new feeder lines. Is the powerstation at Biblis owned by DB Energie? In any case there may not be enough transmission capacity available in the Commercial Grid.

 Besides, the installed "conversion" power in Limburg does not appear to cover more than two ICEs accelarating uphill. I thus suspect that the ABB equipement is only feeding the lesser part of the required energy.

The conversion station has a capacity of 120 MW, each ICE-3 set draws a maximum of 8 MW, so the station could handle 6 double sets, plus 2 single sets accelerating simultaniously, not very likely to be needed. The sets cruise at 300 kph at 75 percent power.

I also find that the question whether feeding new lines which only new-technology trains will be able to use with "non-compatible" frequency for the sake of locomotives of generations gone has been raised in german Parlament.

Resitsa

I won't disagree with you in the case of the Rhein-Main NBS, however much of the savings in the case of the fixed infrastructure would be lost on the trainsets as they would require extra equipment. The trainsets would require the switchgear and cabling for 25Kv but cannot dispense with the 15Kv equipment since most of their runs are under that power supply. DB bought 50 ICE-3 sets able to run on 15Kv. and only 17 ICE-3M polycurrent sets, of these, 4 now belong to NS for service between Amsterdam and Frankfurt-am-Main. The DB is planning on using just 6 of the ICE-3M sets to cover the Frankfurt to Paris service, the remaining 11 sets are more than enough to cover the Amsterdam service.

"Abgeordneter Dr. R. Werner Schuster (SPD) Welche Konsequenzen zieht

<snipped for brevity of quote>

[beaulieu]

SNCF fret has started route learning from Dollands Moor with one of their formerly stored Class 92 locomotives. Could be interesting.

The expected response to EWS operations in France I guess....

Yes, but their timing is poor. I see no point in beginning route learning until the Channel Tunnel problem is solved. They could just begin operations and then have to stop until the problem is solved.

According to a UK newspaper article recently, a more pressing problem is that the UK government is about to stop paying the 'minimum user charge' (a subsidy, basically) for freight trains through the Channel Tunnel, so EWS and SNCF have start paying about 32 million GBP a year to Eurotunnel themselves if they want to carry on running freight trains through it. At the current usage level of about 4000 trains per year, this equates to 8000 GBP per train - totally uneconomic, so at the moment EWS is saying it will stop running international trains in November unless a solution is found....

Yes, Although the problem with freight and the Channel Tunnel is also linked with the lack of commitment of SNCF Fret to taking care of its customers properly and more recently to the very slow implementation of Open Access in France. In any case even a reasonable amount of more freight traffic via the Channel Tunnel would not generate enough additional revenue to solve the financial problems. In fact the lower revenues will have the beneficial effect of getting the problem resolved sooner rather than later.

The current issue of 'Today's Railways' European edition has an editorial comment about the recent first run of a block cereals train in France by Euro Cargo Rail (EWS in France). Because of problems with one of the Vossloh locos it took 48 hours for the out and back trip (500km each way). A local newspaper reporter phoned the customer for comments afterwards (probably expecting criticism of ECR) and was told that they were very pleased with the service - because it usually takes 8 or 9 days for SNCF to do the same thing !!!

Tony

I just received my copy Saturday.

[MStLfan]

Isn't SNCF Fret on a double standard? I understand that it is running freight trains to Antwerpen Noord Goederen, the switching yard for the harbor of Antwerp and a stone's throw from the Dutch border. Only now is France opening up to open access.

Greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

Isn't SNCF Fret on a double standard? I understand that it is running freight trains to Antwerpen Noord Goederen, the switching yard for the harbor of Antwerp and a stone's throw from the Dutch border. Only now is France opening up to open access.

Greetings,

Marc Immeker

Since when did something like that stop the French. I seriously wonder what will happen to B-Cargo, pretty soon the other railways will eat its lunch. No friends, only hungry wolves nipping at its heels.

[owlsroost]

Yes, but their timing is poor. I see no point in beginning route learning until the Channel Tunnel problem is solved. They could just begin operations and then have to stop until the problem is solved.

In a normal, profit-driven business I'd probably expect them to wait too - but SNCF Fret is still a state-owned, union-dominated, monopolistic outfit where rational thought seems in short supply sometimes (if we get it wrong, the French taxpayer will bail us out, won't they ?). They've been prodded by EWS on their home ground and I suspect they think they're firing warning shots across the bows of EWS in the vain hope it'll go away....

Yes, Although the problem with freight and the Channel Tunnel is also linked with the lack of commitment of SNCF Fret to taking care of its customers properly and more recently to the very slow implementation of Open Access in France. In any case even a reasonable amount of more freight traffic via the Channel Tunnel would not generate enough additional revenue to solve the financial problems. In fact the lower revenues will have the beneficial effect of getting the problem resolved sooner rather than later.

Do you mean Eurotunnel revenues and financial problems ?

Yes, I know that a big problem with Channel Tunnel freight has always been SNCF Fret's attitude towards it (it's just the branch line to England, isn't it ?) - one of the reasons EWS started up ECR.

Incidentally, have you heard of any moves by ECR to get clearance to run class 92's deeper into France ? They were originally designed for that but (if I remember correctly) the French rail unions objected to them on (probably spurious) safety grounds so it's never happened.

Tony

[beaulieu]

Yes, but their timing is poor. I see no point in beginning route learning until the Channel Tunnel problem is solved. They could just begin operations and then have to stop until the problem is solved.

In a normal, profit-driven business I'd probably expect them to wait too - but SNCF Fret is still a state-owned, union-dominated, monopolistic outfit where rational thought seems in short supply sometimes (if we get it wrong, the French taxpayer will bail us out, won't they ?). They've been prodded by EWS on their home ground and I suspect they think they're firing warning shots across the bows of EWS in the vain hope it'll go away....

Yes, Although the problem with freight and the Channel Tunnel is also linked with the lack of commitment of SNCF Fret to taking care of its customers properly and more recently to the very slow implementation of Open Access in France. In any case even a reasonable amount of more freight traffic via the Channel Tunnel would not generate enough additional revenue to solve the financial problems. In fact the lower revenues will have the beneficial effect of getting the problem resolved sooner rather than later.

Do you mean Eurotunnel revenues and financial problems ?

Thats what I am refering to, yes.

Yes, I know that a big problem with Channel Tunnel freight has always been SNCF Fret's attitude towards it (it's just the branch line to England, isn't it ?) - one of the reasons EWS started up ECR.

Incidentally, have you heard of any moves by ECR to get clearance to run class 92's deeper into France ? They were originally designed for that but (if I remember correctly) the French rail unions objected to them on (probably spurious) safety grounds so it's never happened.

Tony

It has been reported in TR Europe that SNCF looked at installing the main French safety system KVB on their Class 92s and found the cost would be much too high. Probably due to the Class 92s, two locomotives built in one chassis design, a consequence of the Channel Tunnel again. If things get going for Channel Tunnel freight look for ECR to buy some Alstom 37000 series locomotives or perhaps one of the German designs.

[MStLfan]

Isn't SNCF Fret on a double standard? I understand that it is running freight trains to Antwerpen Noord Goederen, the switching yard for the harbor of Antwerp and a stone's throw from the Dutch border. Only now is France opening up to open access.

Greetings,

Marc Immeker

Since when did something like that stop the French. I seriously wonder what will happen to B-Cargo, pretty soon the other railways will eat its lunch. No friends, only hungry wolves nipping at its heels.

 

True, they twist and turn the rules upside down if it suits them and the rest lets them get away with it too often.

 

If B-cargo is smart it hooks up with the Swiss (SBB-Cargo) which run trains to Cologne already. B-Cargo has 170 class 7700 diesellocomotives from Vossloh (http://www.loks-aus-kiel.de/index.php?nav=1400708), a development of the standard G1205. 20 are suitable for the Netherlands and Germany. No problem there. In fact, B-Cargo runs several trains in the Netherlands already. Besides, they moved about 60 million tons of freigth last year, some 27 million tons from Antwerp alone. Compare that to the 30 million or so of Railion NL.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

This little bit of information escaped my information:

http://www.railcargo.nl/index.cfm/menuid/6/hoofdcat/151/subcat/165/Product/1256

I shall have to pay even more attention to what moves or not at Kijfhoek on those days that I travel past it.

And when I again have a working photo camera I will go out and take some pictures.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

 

True, they twist and turn the rules upside down if it suits them and the rest lets them get away with it too often.

 

If B-cargo is smart it hooks up with the Swiss (SBB-Cargo) which run trains to Cologne already. B-Cargo has 170 class 7700 diesellocomotives from Vossloh (http://www.loks-aus-kiel.de/index.php?nav=1400708), a development of the standard G1205. 20 are suitable for the Netherlands and Germany. No problem there. In fact, B-Cargo runs several trains in the Netherlands already. Besides, they moved about 60 million tons of freigth last year, some 27 million tons from Antwerp alone. Compare that to the 30 million or so of Railion NL.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

B-Cargo seems to do a good job in their own country, but they depend on their competitors for their International Freight. The only part  that is secure is carload, everything else is vulnerable. If you look at the UIC statistics you can see that they do move the heavy tonnage that you mention, but their hauls must be short, as their tonne-kilometers are quite a bit less than those of SBB Cargo.

I too would like to see them partner with SBB Cargo, but politically it may be too difficult, unless circumstances get dire. SBB Cargo is not yet strong enough to move on its own, and the Government sees the company as a tool to get trucks off Swiss highways. I don't think the Swiss yet see the need for SBB Cargo to become a Pan-European Railway company. I also don't see either company or government willing to give up control, and God help them if they were to try something like Airbus with dual/no control. They are already part of the loose Marketing alliance called "Sibelin" but what that really means with SNCF Fret as the centerpiece can't be much. SBB Cargo has already talked to both Railion and Trenitalia.
It rejected Railion as the German's wanted too much control, and the Italians just didn't have the commitment to freight, so they started SBB Cargo Deutschland in Germany and SBB Cargo Italia in Italy.
Were you aware that B-Cargo and SBB Cargo are already partnering to move Intermodal trains for Hupac from Antwerp and Zeebrugge to Italy? B-Cargo moves the trains to Aachen West where SBB Cargo takes over to Italian destinations.

John Beaulieu

[beaulieu]

This little bit of information escaped my information:

http://www.railcargo.nl/index.cfm/menuid/6/hoofdcat/151/subcat/165/Product/1256

I shall have to pay even more attention to what moves or not at Kijfhoek on those days that I travel past it.

And when I again have a working photo camera I will go out and take some pictures.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

Today's Railways Europe had a short bit about that a couple of issues ago. SNCF Fret isn't running to the Netherlands yet. They have placed a tender to lease two diesel locomotives of at least  2.2 MW that are certified to operate in both Belgium and the Netherlands. The locomotives to be available for the December Timetable change. TR Europe had a laugh over that as the only locomotive meeting the requirements is the EMD Class 66 (JT42CWR), they wondered which would give first, would SNCF Fret swallow their pride and lease an American locomotive or give up their desire to begin service this year. You can figure on it taking at least one to one and a half years to get their new Prima diesels approved in both Belgium and the Netherlands.

[MStLfan]

As for swallowing their pride, well, they are doing that with their Vossloh locomotives from Germany.

Further, during or just after WW2 SNCF ordered 100 diesel locomotives which became class 62000. They were mainly used for switching hump yards in later years.

We'll have to watch the leasing companies to see if they have anything on offer quickly or if th locomotives have to be build first.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

As for swallowing their pride, well, they are doing that with their Vossloh locomotives from Germany.

Further, during or just after WW2 SNCF ordered 100 diesel locomotives which became class 62000. They were mainly used for switching hump yards in later years.

We'll have to watch the leasing companies to see if they have anything on offer quickly or if th locomotives have to be build first.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

The 62000 series are easy to explain, when you are near death and on life support, you will take anything to survive. In the case of the Vossloh Roadswitchers, they can rationalize that by the fact that they are puchasing them from Alstom who subcontracted production to Vossloh Spain, also the locomotives have Alstom Belfort manufactured electrical drive systems. They won't have any of that to comfort them if they lease the Class 66s. One leasing company Mitsui Rail Capital Europe (MRCE) has 6 Class 66s available, they are in your area, unless they are parked inside they can be found at Nedtrains works at Tilburg. They are painted overall black carbodies with yellow for contrast on the cab fronts. The numbers are JT1 - JT6.

[MStLfan]

The 62000 series are easy to explain, when you are near death and on life support, you will take anything to survive.

And they aren't now?

If the JT1 - JT6 are at Tilburg it may be that they are a but difficult to get to. we'll wait and see.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

This should prove interesting. This is a press release from ERFCP (European Rail Freight Customers Platform). For American readers they a customer lobbying group as their name implies.

RFG: Customer platform on single wagons

Monday, 04 Sep 2006 08:03

Brussels, 31st August 2006

Single wagons – the way forward!

Following a meeting of over 30 representatives of the rail freight industry in Brussels on Tuesday 29th August, including customers, independent train operators, forwarders and aggregators, wagon leasing and owning companies, infrastructure managers and representatives from two incumbent railway companies, the European Rail Freight Customer Platform (ERFCP) has written to European Commissioner Jacques Barrot asking the Commission to take urgent action on two issues which are causing severe problems for customers and leading to a speedy decline in such traffic.

These issues are:
1. The refusal of many incumbent railway companies to allow any operator to use their marshalling yards and terminals at transparent and competitive prices, as required in the First Railway Package legislation.
2. The anti-competitive actions of some train operators in threatening customers with complete withdrawal of services if they use other operators for some of them.

ERFCP noted that, whereas intermodal terminals were open to all operators, many marshalling yards were firmly closed to all except the incumbents. ERFCP suggests that this could be resolved by requiring incumbent operators to open these up to all operators, including provision of common services at transparent prices.

Alternatively, the Commission must require Member States to transfer ownership and operation of marshalling yards to their Infrastructure Manager for them to provide common services and operations.
As a result of this meeting, ERFCP has set up a project group to take forward actions to create a greater number of economic and reliable single wagon services.

ERFCP President Georges di Lallo said ‘although we regretted the lack of interest from incumbent operators in the single wagon issue, customers, other train operators, leasing companies and aggregators welcomed the opportunity to hear about best practice in this sector, and discuss how this could be applied more widely.
‘From the number of people attending, it was clear that there was strong customer interest to build on the success of some single wagon service. /we agreed that there was good potential for growth if the best service qualities identified could be applied much more widely.

‘However, this potential for success will only happen if the Commission takes strong and urgent action to curb the continuing monopolistic actions of some railway companies and ensures that the First Railway Package measures are fully adopted and enforced.’

Further information:
Klaus Meyer, Secretary General, t: 00 49 8943 63 0775

 

My own comments are that I wonder how the envision this working, for example in a humpyard how would you keep ABC Rail's freight cars separate from those of XYZ Rail's. Dedicate tracks to each company? Clear out enough tracks to do the second company's cars? Or pick and chose which services you provide, i.e. pickup from some customers but not others, operate some of the connecting hauls. And if the volume drops and costs go up who covers them, the incumbent? or the Government? Or do you adjust charges retrospectively? And do you expect the incumbent to handle the marginal services. All very strange.

[owlsroost]

I suspect to really make it work you'd need a neutral switching operator - a Conrail/BRC/IHB etc equivalent.

I wonder how many of the open-access operators are really that interested in running a network of 'loose car' train services - I suspect it's a nightmare to control the switching and local transfer costs, compared to running unit trains from A to B.

Tony

[MStLfan]

A neutral switching service should work.

I Germany and Austria there is a small but growing network of loos car trains operating under the banner of ECCO Cargo. If you google it you get the website of various rail operators who participate (German language only I think).

This link has a map:

http://www.mittelweserbahn.de/gueterverkehr/ecco-cargo.html

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

A neutral switching service should work.

I Germany and Austria there is a small but growing network of loos car trains operating under the banner of ECCO Cargo. If you google it you get the website of various rail operators who participate (German language only I think).

This link has a map:

http://www.mittelweserbahn.de/gueterverkehr/ecco-cargo.html

greetings,

Marc Immeker

Maybe, but its easy to do on a small scale, much harder on a large scale.

[martin.knoepfel]

MaK wants to sell its loco-building division. They argue they are too small a competitor in this business. I wonder who will buy it.

[beaulieu]

MaK wants to sell its loco-building division. They argue they are too small a competitor in this business. I wonder who will buy it.

I heard that a disgruntled stockholder was pushing the idea, hard to believe since they have a majority of the diesel market in most of Europe right now, but I can see a downturn coming for diesel purchases unless DB finally decides to place an order. I would sure hate to see Siemens buy them again.

[MStLfan]

Maybe DB are waiting for the Betuweroute to open before placing new orders? A lot of class 6400's may become surplus and moved to Germany.

There are some 20 class 6400 diesellocomotives surplus. Railion Nederland are now leasing them to others. Three class 6400's are being leased to Railpro (6401-6403+6504, not 6404 which is in red). 6504 has been repainted.

See this link:

http://forum.rolandrail.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1771&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

There are, these last few weeks, a large number of these locomotives at the Nedtrain Cargo Support workshop here in Rotterdam. Sometimes up to 12 (=10%). Quit a few have been standing around for weeks.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

Maybe DB are waiting for the Betuweroute to open before placing new orders? A lot of class 6400's may become surplus and moved to Germany.

There are some 20 class 6400 diesellocomotives surplus. Railion Nederland are now leasing them to others. Three class 6400's are being leased to Railpro (6401-6403+6504, not 6404 which is in red). 6504 has been repainted.

See this link:

http://forum.rolandrail.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1771&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

There are, these last few weeks, a large number of these locomotives at the Nedtrain Cargo Support workshop here in Rotterdam. Sometimes up to 12 (=10%). Quit a few have been standing around for weeks.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

I think there are a lot of reasons why DB hasn't bought yet, with the biggest two being Railion hasn't been making any money. And DB has been trying to dress up its balance sheet in order to privatize the company. Also I don't think prior to this year DB thought it was going to need very many diesel locomotives in the future. the Lubeck line is being electrified, there is talk that the Munich - Lindau line may be electrified, and freight had been somewhat stagnant. Now freight traffic has surged and DB is caught short. I heard that out of service RN 6400s were to be shopped by Nedtrain prior to going to Germany to replace DB Class 202 switchers, not directly, the 6400s were to become DB 264 series locomotives and would replace Class 294s which in turn would replace the 202s in eastern assignments.

[MStLfan]

MaK wants to sell its loco-building division. They argue they are too small a competitor in this business. I wonder who will buy it.

I heard that a disgruntled stockholder was pushing the idea, hard to believe since they have a majority of the diesel market in most of Europe right now, but I can see a downturn coming for diesel purchases unless DB finally decides to place an order. I would sure hate to see Siemens buy them again.

From the Vossloh press release:

Locomotive business with value appreciation potential through strategic alliances
The Locomotives business unit, with the two production locations in Kiel and Valencia, will, according to the project deliverables, be developed through strategic alliances. The strategic analysis confirms that, following the integration of the Spanish operations and the restructuring in Kiel, the business unit is, as European market leader, very well positioned for sustained profitability. Despite this fundamentally favorable situation, it has become evident that Vossloh alone can only inadequately exploit the existing value enhancement potential and growth opportunities of its Locomotives business unit. Accordingly, the financial benchmarks set for Vossloh’s core businesses are unachievable within the foreseeable future. Efforts are now being undertaken to realize growth and value enhancement potentials in the company of strategic partners and hence further sharpen the competitive edge enjoyed by Vossloh Locomotives.

Full press release:

http://www.vossloh.de/fs_cms/en/press/press_releases/Press_release_271.html

I always wondered why they bought it. It seems that they (Vossloh as a group) are too small for development and services that are needed by railroad companies.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

Do you think that they are already feeling the heat from the new Voith locomotive? I can't imagine who would be interested in partnering with them. Alstom isn't strong enough, they sold their Spanish factory to Vossloh in order to be allowed to receive financial assistance from the French Government. Bombardier is struggling. Siemens is reportedly looking to sell its Dispolok subsidiary due to inadequate returns. And anyway Siemens made a mess of MaK the first time they owned it. Maybe Russia would be interested, or perhaps the Chinese. EMD and GE from the USA would be leery of the Unions.

[owlsroost]

It would be interesting to know how large the market is for mainline diesel locos in Europe - with increasing electrification, DMU's for passenger traffic and EMD's inroads into the freight diesel market I wonder what's left for the local manufacturers......

I suspect the most likely partner that would be interested in keeping the Vossloh loco business going might be Far Eastern or Chinese - another European supplier might be more interested in buying it's market share i.e. closing it down.

Tony

[beaulieu]

It would be interesting to know how large the market is for mainline diesel locos in Europe - with increasing electrification, DMU's for passenger traffic and EMD's inroads into the freight diesel market I wonder what's left for the local manufacturers......

The DB fleet and the B-Cargo fleet are the last ones needing replacement in the old EU, outside of perhaps Portugal (tiny fleet).

DB is going to need some diesels no matter what happens, there are productive freight areas in Bayern, and Schlieswig-Holstein that aren't planned for electrification at this time. The Russian diesels won't last forever. A greater need is to replace the "Rabbits" Class 218s on passenger duties, the Class 66 isn't really suitable for this.

B-Cargo just can't seem to make up its mind, they need both some new heavy freight diesels and new freight electrics. If they would electrify the short remaining section of the Montzen line they could get by with fewer diesels, but they will still need some, sets of the smaller Class 7700s can do the job but must be more costly.

I suspect the most likely partner that would be interested in keeping the Vossloh loco business going might be Far Eastern or Chinese - another European supplier might be more interested in buying it's market share i.e. closing it down.

Tony

My thoughts exactly, there are too many suppliers and none of them can make an adequate return on their investment. But locomotive builders are seen as a national asset so they are subsidized.

John Beaulieu