Continental European Railway Operations

[MStLfan]

I've admired those huge threads about British railroading or the coffeeshop.
So I am going to start one here about European railroading in general.

My first question is: was there a (narrow gauge) railroad on the German North Sea island of Helgoland? I found a very short reference to it.
It was probably military in origin as the island was a fortress in both world wars.
greetings,
Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

Marc, I hope this topic takes off as I am very interested in European railways, unfortunately I think that your starting topic is a little obscure. I would expected that Helgoland would have required a fortress railway in the pre-WWI era. It probably would have been a narrow gauge system to haul the necessary supplies for building the fortifications. Without the large navy like the Brits had, the Germans and the Russians went in for a lot of modern fortresses. I am not familiar with Helgoland but I have seen references to the Brits being wary of the defences.

I have seen that the Netherlands government has been swayed on the issue of the 1.5kv DC islands on the Betuwe Route and are going to convert those areas to 25kv AC also. My Dutch is close to nonexistant, so has any timetable been announce for the changes, or will the be made in time for the opening next year.

[martin.knoepfel]

I found on Amazon a book that covers railways of the German North-Sea-Islands. Of course, it is written in German. I din't buy it, but an advertising text talks of unique new or historic pictures of those railways and mentions the island of Helgoland.

There is a Website inselbahnen.de (Island railroads). It says the islands of Norderney und Helgoland got railways in WW I. On both islands, rails have been removed after 1947. There are only a few fotos of the Heloland-trains.

[MStLfan]

Hi Martin,

Yes I have a book about those islands too. It makes a reference under Sylt that 2 steamers were sold.

I have checked out Inselbahnen.de. They say that one steamer had been sold prior to 1936. After WWII it was sold back to the mainland (Rendsburger kreisbahnen?) and no further information. Supposedly a second was sold too. No futher info on that yet.

If all goes well then next wednesday , 19 july, I will be traveling to Helgoland for a week of vacation maybe I will find out something over there.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

Hi Beaulieu,

Yes I know it is obscure but it was the first thing that came to mind. The british thread has gone in many directions, I don't mind If this one does too. Just let's all keep it civil!.

 I was hoping for a reaction of some of our british forummembers. They allways seem to know about those obscure things. The british use Helgoland as a bombing target right after WWII. Maybe someone would have seen something or read about it and ad forgotten about it.

Feel free to ask and maybe I or certainly someone else will have an answer opr opinion.

Re the 1,5kv dc / 25 kv ac question. I have not followed that. Am I correct that the first section is near Barendrecht / Kijfhoek humpyard? If so, the 2 and 3 track freighttracks could easily be converted to 25 kv ac. The 2 highspeed tracks duck under the freight tracks. Only problem is with the electric powered trains that arrive from the direction of Rotterdam Centraal. They will have to change at what remains of the old yard called IJsselmonde or Rotterdam Zuid Goederen (south freight yard, goederen means goods). This is right in front of my house!

The other one is near the border, between Zevenaar and Emmerich?

That one might be more difficult to solve.

One of the more stupid things our government and parliament did was authorizing just to the border and not making sure that there was a treaty with Germany. This year, I think, we will have a state of the art freight railroad with dodble stack clearances in tunnels that, over the border funnels into a busy passenger railroad that will be upgraded somewhat (3rd track).

The biggest, I think, was electrifying at 25 kv AC. Yes, all modern schemes are at that but the Germans, Swiss and Austrians (and Sweden but not, repeat, not Denmark (also 25 kv AC and a tunnel connection to Malmo from Kopenhagen I think) run at 15kv 16 2/3 hz......

Guess where most of the traffic from Rotterdam is moving to.

Well, enough for now. Back to finalizing my trip to Helgoland next week.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

Other things we might discuss are: is open acces working (preferably with supporting figures)? Operations at borders stations. Questions about locomotives and other technical stuff. Or what about great trips or photography locations.

This forum is open..

greetings,

Marc Immeker

 

[beaulieu]

Hi Beaulieu,

Re the 1,5kv dc / 25 kv ac question. I have not followed that. Am I correct that the first section is near Barendrecht / Kijfhoek humpyard? If so, the 2 and 3 track freighttracks could easily be converted to 25 kv ac. The 2 highspeed tracks duck under the freight tracks. Only problem is with the electric powered trains that arrive from the direction of Rotterdam Centraal. They will have to change at what remains of the old yard called IJsselmonde or Rotterdam Zuid Goederen (south freight yard, goederen means goods). This is right in front of my house!

Yes the first section is from Barendrecht to Kifhoek Yard.

The other one is near the border, between Zevenaar and Emmerich?

That one might be more difficult to solve.

The question would be what passenger trains will operate over the section. The ICE3Ms won't have any trouble, the Jan Kipura EC service will need to use a Multi-System Locomotive. What operates the local services?

One of the more stupid things our government and parliament did was authorizing just to the border and not making sure that there was a treaty with Germany. This year, I think, we will have a state of the art freight railroad with dodble stack clearances in tunnels that, over the border funnels into a busy passenger railroad that will be upgraded somewhat (3rd track).

The biggest, I think, was electrifying at 25 kv AC. Yes, all modern schemes are at that but the Germans, Swiss and Austrians (and Sweden but not, repeat, not Denmark (also 25 kv AC and a tunnel connection to Malmo from Kopenhagen I think) run at 15kv 16 2/3 hz......

Not Really a big deal, Die Bahn has 260 Class 185, 25 Class 182, and 100 Class 189s that will be able to operate on the Line. There are about 60 Class 185s in the various lease fleets, Dispolok has about 50 ES64U2 locomotives, and the SBB has 50 Class 482s that will be able to operate over the line when it opens if they have ETCS installed by then. Plus of course the diesels can help out too.

Guess where most of the traffic from Rotterdam is moving to.

Well, enough for now. Back to finalizing my trip to Helgoland next week.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

Enjoy your trip, and when you get back let us know what you find out about any railways on the island.

[bjeffery]

In March & April I had a brief holiday in Europe & did some inter-city hopping.  The next "new" thing that was coming up was the new central station for Berlin.  I have recently heard that it has opened.

Has anybody been through there yet?  Is the layout generally passenger and rail-fan friendly?  I read that there was an amazing number of trains passing through.

[Kevin C. Smith]

Ah, finally! I think I have figured out how to work this thing...

Anyway, I was going to ask an obscure question myself and this thread might be the place to answer half of it. I was looking over some Amtrak timetables and got to thinking about high speed trains (in Europe now and the US in decades past). The customary US practice is to list departure times but, except for selected stations, not the arrival time at intermediate stations. Is there a general rule at how long the station stops are for most high speed trains in Europe? 5 minutes? 15? 20? Too long would start to cut into travel time but I assume that the stations between terminals are fairly importatnt stops and would have considerable numbers of passengers boarding/getting off and baggage, too.

The other half of the question is what was the practice in the US when there were more high speed (for their day) trains? How long did the Century pause at Elkhart? The Zephyr at Lincoln?

[sgtbean1]

I have seen that the Netherlands government has been swayed on the issue of the 1.5kv DC islands on the Betuwe Route and are going to convert those areas to 25kv AC also. My Dutch is close to nonexistant, so has any timetable been announce for the changes, or will the be made in time for the opening next year.

The Betuwe Route was planned and constructed with 25kV in mind all along.

Some questions have been rased about 25kV because the rest of the Netherlands is at 1.5kV DC, Belgium is at 3kV DC and Germany is at 15kV AC. So effectively, anyone willing to use the route must either buy new loco's, convert old ones or use multi-voltage loco's. All these solutions will probably bring the cost for the *potential* operators up to the point it is not an investment worth making. On top of that, they are thinking of charging extra (on top of the normal going rate) for diesel traction to discourage the use of diesel.

This route is absolutely an example of a government policy that has not been thought thru. They made decisions that cost a lot of money and have no pratical use. For instance:
The mid-construction decision to set the catenary high enough above the rails to allow double stack container trains to operate on the route.... All tunnels, viaduct an of course: the catenary itself had to be adjusted at considerable extra cost. And the big sting: they won't be able to run double stack anyhow!
Germany already said they would not raise the catenary etc, at their end of the border. So effectively, you can take a doublestack from Rotterdam harbour to the German border (about 150 miles), where a large yard has to build to take all the doublestacks and turn them into a single stack twice the lenght....... yeah...... right.

When that thing opens, they expect a rush towards this route.... I (and many railfans with me) expect the route to be eerily quiet. The alternate routes (the ones they are using now) are not that much longer in mileage and I think especially for non-priority freights it is simply cheaper than running the Betuwe Route. I wouldn't be surprised if this route would "flop"

[Murphy Siding]

     Marc- I sent you a pm.  I'm not sure it went through, though, as I've never used that feature before.  Let me know if you *didn't* get it.

[Hugh Jampton]

Is there a general rule at how long the station stops are for most high speed trains in Europe? 5 minutes? 15? 20? Too long would start to cut into travel time but I assume that the stations between terminals are fairly importatnt stops and would have considerable numbers of passengers boarding/getting off and baggage, too.

Dwell tiime at some of the intermediate stations can be as little as 3 minutes. This LINK to a TGV timetable says so.

[TH&B]

The biggest, I think, was electrifying at 25 kv AC. Yes, all modern schemes are at that but the Germans, Swiss and Austrians (and Sweden but not, repeat, not Denmark (also 25 kv AC and a tunnel connection to Malmo from Kopenhagen I think) run at 15kv 16 2/3 hz......

Marc Immeker

If Denmark had electrified at 15kv 16 2/3hz instead of 25kv ac in the 80's and 90's Europe would have a continous 15kv 16 2/3hz all the way from northern Sweden and Norway to Austria through Germany. That would have been usefull. The Danish 25kv ((the gap)) is only about 300km. 

 

[MStLfan]

Some 5 to 10 years ago someone had the bright idea to re-electrify the existed electric lines. Until reality set in, it was to expensive to do and would take very long because of the number of trains involved and because the then new doubledeck trains where not designed with this change in mind, unlike the new intercity doubledeckers.

On the subject of the use of the Betuwelijn:

I predict a slow start until fees are worked out to everybody's satisfaction. Then it will grow if the European economy holds up.

For several decades now freight traffic in the Netherlands is internationally oriented. More than 70 percent is international traffic and growing.

Today all traffic to Germany must use the line through the province of Brabant with its many cities. Furthermore, the line goes right through the citycenters.

The new Betuwelijn goes through much less densely populated country and follows a motorway (A15 Rotterdam-Nijmegen).

I am not sure about the double stack clearance not being designed in, stripped out at first seems more likely.

The politicians saddled the project with a number of very costly changes like using tunnels where bridges would do the trick just as well.

After all we have railroads here in this country since 1837. Trains are moving through fields and cows and birds are used to it so why build a tunnel under a field but not under the adjacent city (near Zoetermeer on the high speed line to Belgium)?

Things like that and the slow decisionmaking process make things so costly.

Railfans should hope for freighttrains on the old route for as long as possible because the new line is almost completely closed in with sound barriers (very ugly things, i can see one that has been build on the other side of the tracks from my house!).

Multi current locomotives are pretty expensive compared to one current locomotives. 15 kv AC would have been cheaper for the operators.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

And if the Betuwelijn was 15 kv too it would be possible to go from Rotterdam Maasvlakte to Narvik in far northern Norway and in the other direction to Domodossola (borderstation Switserland / Italy) and Brenner (ditto Austria / Italy).

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

Well, the trip is booked (ferry to the island, lodging but return by ferry not yet confirmed).

The owner of this link http://www.insel-ivoe.com/helgolandbahn/ has a dubious form of humour and has some experience with photoshop programs but it gives you an idea about the island if you mentally leave out the trains. Would have been nice though to have some of that..

I like the picture with the Airbus A380. You see both Helgland under the tail and its companion Düne under the nose.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Murphy Siding]

     How do the railroads, and countries involved handle freight cars (and passenger cars) that cross international borders?

[beaulieu]

And if the Betuwelijn was 15 kv too it would be possible to go from Rotterdam Maasvlakte to Narvik in far northern Norway and in the other direction to Domodossola (borderstation Switserland / Italy) and Brenner (ditto Austria / Italy).

Marc Immeker

Yes, but the standard freight locomotive sold by Bombardier, and Siemens, comes with both 15kv/16.7Hz and 25kv/50Hz built in. You can save a little bit of money by leaving off the 25kv switch gear but the amount is so little that only on the Br 146s built for commuter service has that been done. Now to add the 3kv DC adds quite a bit to the cost. And the 1.5kv DC requires two pantographs to get full power from the locomotive. This is where the elimination of the two 1.5kv DC islands was important.

[sgtbean1]

>How do the railroads, and countries involved handle freight cars (and passenger cars) that cross international borders?

Just like it was within a country's own border. The countries in the European Union have all accepted the Schengen Treaty, which basically mean free travel for persons, goods and services within the EU's borders. I don't know if you have to show an ID if you purchase a ticket for an international train (staying within EU borders), but once you're on the train, you won't find customes checking your ID....

[sgtbean1]

And the 1.5kv DC requires two pantographs to get full power from the locomotive. This is where the elimination of the two 1.5kv DC islands was important.

And requiring 2 panto's for one voltage is not something most multi-voltage loco's can spare, since Siemens (IIRC) uses one panto for every voltage setting. Since they have four different voltage settings, they have to use all four panto and cannot spare one extra for 1.5kV.

The good news: just about anything except the heavy chaulk trains can be set to move with one panto, since over here, the trains are not very long (and not that heavy) and the terrain is mostly..... well, pancaked.

If fact, loco's over here are not allowed to use two panto's when getting the train to move from a stand, since the current drawn throught the catenary can (and has) cause(d) the catenary to snap from extreme heat, sometimes even welding the panto's pickup "shoe" to the wires.

[bjeffery]

Regarding the posts covering passengers crossing international borders:

During my recent (March/April) intercity European train travel I had Customs officers on the trains stamping my Australian passport for leaving/entering Germany, Slovak Republic, Austria, Hungary & Poland (all of which I believe are in the EU).  I believe that the officers who were operating in two teams (one set for the country being left and one set for the country being entered) were boarding the trains at the stops prior to the border crossings , processing travellers , and then getting off at the next stop to do the same process on the next train heading in the reverse direction.

[sgtbean1]

All of those countries you mentioned (with the exception of Austria and Germany) did sign the treaty, but have not yet enforced it actively. So the Schengen Area (the area in which you can travel freely and customs only do random checks) ends at the Eastern - Germany border to Poland, Czech Republic, and of course Switzerland. Austria only has Schengen borders with Germany and Italy, so if you entered Austria from - say - Hungary or the Czech Republic, normal customs procedures would be enforced, meaning ID checks, checking goods imported / exported etc.

So yes: it is possible to have customs checks at these borders you've mentioned. Free traffic with only random custom checks (most of them not even at the borders) applies to the Schengen Area, so travelling from Holland to Italy, you will probably never take out your ID (except of course when you take the route through Switzerland, then you'll have to swing the ID around at least 4 times on a round trip).

[Hugh Jampton]

     How do the railroads, and countries involved handle freight cars (and passenger cars) that cross international borders?

When operating conventional vehicles internationally there are a number of considerations that need to taken into account.

Track Gauge: Mostly the same so there's no problem there. The train in Spain is the notable exception where international passenger trains are usually gauge convertable Talgos, while in other places it's all change please. Freight is either transloaded, the trucks are changed or the whole car is put onto a car carrying car with the appropriate gauge wheels.

Loading Gauge: Most European loading gauges are pretty much the same so there's no problem there. The notable exception os the UK where it's tiny loading gauge means that only specific cars can come through the chunnel or accross on whatever train ferries may be operating (if any).

Power: It's not common for locos to travel in other countries so they're usually changed at the border. This maeans that international trains are coaching stock rather than multiple units. Where electric trains have to  have their locos changed because of different line voltage there is a special section that can be switched to the correct voltage for the locos to allow this to happen.

Signalling: Most railways use lineside signals so there's not really a problem here, except of course that most railways use some form of train protection system, the main ones are KVB, LZB, AWS, TPWS and a few others. As this equipment has something mounted on the locos it's another reason why they tend not to travel accross borders.

Couplers: Not a problem as most international trains have hook and shackle couplers or knuckle couplers. Some of the eastern countries us the Russian coupler, so a match wagon, which has different couplers at each end is used.

The EU has decreed that railways should be more interoperable with each other and has issued the Technical Standards for Interoperability (TSIs for short) and they tell the member countries which track gauge, overhead voltage etc. to use. There are 2 main TSIs, one covering high speed trains and the other conventional railways. There is also a move to standardising the signalling and they've come up with what they call ERTMS which is not a signalling system as such, but a load of waffle on functionality.

[Murphy Siding]

     Is there a *standard* language used in train operation on the continent?

[Hugh Jampton]

     Is there a *standard* language used in train operation on the continent?

Each country uses it's local profanities.

[MStLfan]

There was a publishing company that had a railroad terms dictionary in four languages.

I think it was Elsevier.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Murphy Siding]

     Is there a *standard* language used in train operation on the continent?

Each country uses it's local profanities.

     I'm sure some profanities are universal.

[beaulieu]

Murphy, there is a push to make English the Universal language for Operations of trains but its going slowly. The biggest push is coming from the companies that supply train crews to the Open Access Operators, companies like MEV Eisenbahn Verkehrsgesellschaft.

[beaulieu]

     How do the railroads, and countries involved handle freight cars (and passenger cars) that cross international borders?

<snipped>

Power: It's not common for locos to travel in other countries so they're usually changed at the border. This maeans that international trains are coaching stock rather than multiple units. Where electric trains have to  have their locos changed because of different line voltage there is a special section that can be switched to the correct voltage for the locos to allow this to happen.

On the Trans-Alpine Routes its becoming more common, Venlo on the Dutch border to Milan is done daily by a FN Cargo ES64F4 with a container train. Rotterdam to Basel, Switzerland twice daily by a ERS Class 66 Diesel. Munich to Verona, Italy is done with Rail Traction Company ES64F4s daily. The German - Swiss border is crossed by dozens of trains daily not just to Muttenz Yd. That requires the safety systems for both countries plus pantographs for both. Obviously Germany - Austria doesn't count. Both SNCF Fret and Railion are running through between Woippy and Cologne.

Signalling: Most railways use lineside signals so there's not really a problem here, except of course that most railways use some form of train protection system, the main ones are KVB, LZB, AWS, TPWS and a few others. As this equipment has something mounted on the locos it's another reason why they tend not to travel accross borders.

Couplers: Not a problem as most international trains have hook and shackle couplers or knuckle couplers. Some of the eastern countries us the Russian coupler, so a match wagon, which has different couplers at each end is used.

The EU has decreed that railways should be more interoperable with each other and has issued the Technical Standards for Interoperability (TSIs for short) and they tell the member countries which track gauge, overhead voltage etc. to use. There are 2 main TSIs, one covering high speed trains and the other conventional railways. There is also a move to standardising the signalling and they've come up with what they call ERTMS which is not a signalling system as such, but a load of waffle on functionality.

ETCS is the signalling part of ERTMS. Its development has been fraught with bugs, but since the first of this year it is finally beginning to work like it is supposed to. The Spanish section is now approved for operation, in June the Swiss Government  gave the ok for 160kph operation on the Matstetten - Rothrist NBS and expects to approve 200kph operation at the December Timetable change. Futher they have announced the intention to convert their whole standard gauge network over to ETCS by the end of 2015.  And in Italy one of the new High Speed Lines is being run solely with ETCS at 200kph.
There are other trial installations but they are not fully operational yet.

[beaulieu]

French news source "Les Echoes" reports that rotating strikes against SNCF are hammering SNCF Fret so hard that it will be unable to fulfill the conditions the EU laid down for allowing the most recent rescue loan from the French Government. It speculates that this may cause SNCF Fret to have to cancel its purchase program for new diesel locomotives