Continental European Railway Operations

[beaulieu]

     John:  Thanks for your reply on the *typical * carload trip.  That was interesting.  It does raise a few questions. What are *avoiding tracks* and *freight rings*?  You mention the train changing power at The Netherlands border.  Is that due to changing to a different railroad, or to a differing electrical(?) system?  When the customs officials look over a train, what do they do/what are they checking?  -Thanks

Murphy to add one more thing to what Marc said, in addition to the change of electrical system there is also the problem of two different cab signal systems. For the locomotive to operate across the border it must not only be able to operate on both electrical systems, but also operate on both cab signal systems. In the case of the Hupac container train in the more recent posting, the locomotive would need to have 5 different cab signal systems in order to operate from Rotterdam to Novarra (or Milan). The cost of installing the 5 cab signal systems will nearly double the cost of the locomotive over just one system. The European Governments have committed to change this on the most important freight routes , but we are years from the date that the program will be completed. The reason the locomotive change is made at the Dutch border is due to the limitations of 1500v DC versus say at the Swiss border where a diesel must be switched for an electric because the Swiss tunnels aren't ventilated for diesels. Or if you are running an electric throughout the 1500v DC at the Dutch end limits locomotive power, while the 3000v DC at the Italian end does not. Ohm's Law rules.

[beaulieu]

There is a faster way.

Rather than going via Woerden and Gouda to Rotterdam, this train goes on to Utrecht, Arnhem, Emmerich and to its destination, Hagen, just south of the Ruhr. This train hauls a lot of steel products and I think Hagen is used to collect and redistribute cars and trains from various steel producers.

I am not sure about the route south, probably via Siegen and Frankfurt to Mannheim and then along the Rhine. Might be a day faster. Especially since these trains run through with Russian build big diesels (formerly used in East Germany) and, at the most, change only a crew at Emmerich. Hagen will be the first point were classification can take place.

Marc, I looked at that possibility as I was aware of the solid trainloads into Germany. There is a website that lists the freight trains that operate in the Netherlands for all companies. The list is available here, it is an Acrobat file.

Dutch Freight List

To understand it you also need the abbreviations list here.

Abbreviation List

The list does not include what the Brits would call trip freights and what we in the US would call locals.

Marc, the only train south out of Hagen Vorhalle that might be the train you are looking for is
CSQ 50031 bound for Mannheim Rbf. That train is a possibility. If so it would still be a solid trainload from Corus, but it might break up at Mannheim. CSQ means a complete trainload for one customer moving under a quality guarantee.

Come to think about it, an increasing number of container trains run with these diesels as well from Rotterdam to Emmerich. They then can pass their Canadian competitors from ACTS, ERS etc.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

Darn, while typing this I just spotted the steel trains from Corus to Hagen. It didn't click for me that
Beverwijk is right next to the steel works and Corus used to be named Hoogovens, Duh.

Railion has been storing the Class 1600 electrics when they need major repairs, even though they are only middle-aged for electrics.

John Beaulieu

[Hugh Jampton]

Technically speaking they're not in cab signalling systems (the driver still gets the movement authority from lineside signals), they're train protection systems. These systems merely inform the driver that the signal ahead is either clear or restricting (by means of a bell or hooter or somesuch) and apply the brakes if the driver does not act appropriately. The cost of fitting these sytems to a train or loco is actualy minimal in terms of overall cost. The problem with retrofitting the equipment required (some sensor to pick up the information from the signalling system, a processing unit and some bits and pieces on the drivere's desk) is where the heck do you install it. The sensor needs to be mounted close to a bogie pivot point so that it remains above where the trackside equipment is at all times, even in curves. Some various syetems can use the same sensor, but not all of them. The processing units need to be located somewhere where they can be accessed for maintenance and not block any other equipment from the same, and the buttons and hooters / bells etc. need to be found a home in the cab. All in all it's just too much hassle

[beaulieu]

Technically speaking they're not in cab signalling systems (the driver still gets the movement authority from lineside signals), they're train protection systems. These systems merely inform the driver that the signal ahead is either clear or restricting (by means of a bell or hooter or somesuch) and apply the brakes if the driver does not act appropriately. The cost of fitting these sytems to a train or loco is actualy minimal in terms of overall cost. The problem with retrofitting the equipment required (some sensor to pick up the information from the signalling system, a processing unit and some bits and pieces on the drivere's desk) is where the heck do you install it. The sensor needs to be mounted close to a bogie pivot point so that it remains above where the trackside equipment is at all times, even in curves. Some various syetems can use the same sensor, but not all of them. The processing units need to be located somewhere where they can be accessed for maintenance and not block any other equipment from the same, and the buttons and hooters / bells etc. need to be found a home in the cab. All in all it's just too much hassle

Your right of course Hugh, you also need to shield said equipment from the RFI signals generated by the modern vvvf 3-phase AC drives.

[martin.knoepfel]

A few years ago, I heard from locomotive manufacturers' side a rule of thumb: If you want to run a new multi-system electric engine (for example 25kv/25 Hz AC + 15 kv 16,7 Hz + 3 kV DC + 1,5 kV DC) under different signalling systems, add 5% for each signalling system you have to install.

[Murphy Siding]

and the buttons and hooters / bells etc. need to be found a home in the cab. All in all it's just too much hassle

     Sorry to be irreverent, but on this side of the Atlantic, "hooters" has a whole different connotation.  What are hooters in a European locomotive?

[Hugh Jampton]

and the buttons and hooters / bells etc. need to be found a home in the cab. All in all it's just too much hassle

     Sorry to be irreverent, but on this side of the Atlantic, "hooters" has a whole different connotation.  What are hooters in a European locomotive?

Do they now?!?!?!

A hooter is a small horn type thingy..

[Simon Reed]

The Hooters were also a 1980's Folk/Pop band from Philadelphia. That's enough of that.

Martin - I'm surprised about your 5% figure. I'd have expected this to be higher. A BLS 485, for instance, would need 3 seperate systems - Italian, Swiss and German. That must be a complicated installation unless there is a degree of commonality.  

That gets me wondering about a Basle based BLS driver. Would he or she have to learn three different signalling systems? I don't know how BLS crews work but even if there is a crew change at Basle and Brig drivers would need to be proficient on two systems. 

   

[beaulieu]

The Hooters were also a 1980's Folk/Pop band from Philadelphia. That's enough of that.

Martin - I'm surprised about your 5% figure. I'd have expected this to be higher. A BLS 485, for instance, would need 3 seperate systems - Italian, Swiss and German. That must be a complicated installation unless there is a degree of commonality.  

That gets me wondering about a Basle based BLS driver. Would he or she have to learn three different signalling systems? I don't know how BLS crews work but even if there is a crew change at Basle and Brig drivers would need to be proficient on two systems. 

ERS, quotes the price of installing ETCS as 300,000 Euros per locomotive, not including extra costs for the protoype installation in the first of any model locomotive. The simpler systems are possibly cheaper.

The BLS drivers don't run north of Basle. South of the Simplon Tunnel to Domodossola and on the Luino line are Swiss, with the Italians doing the maintenance. And currently you need four systems for a freight locomotive to run from Germany to Italy, Indusi and Elke in Germany, Signum in Switzerland, and BACC? in Italy.  Elke is in use between Offenburg and Weil am Rhein only. BLS has been pooling one Re 485 with Railion Br 185s on freight from Germany to Italy. This may have stopped while the Re 485s are being fitted with ETCS, they have 5 leasers right now including a Railion Br 185.

[martin.knoepfel]

It is 5% per additional system. In Beaulieus example, you have one system plus three more, makes 15% more. If an electric engine costs 3 million Euros, so it is 450 000 Euros more.

Swiss Federal Railways employs engineers working in Germany and Switzerland. They have to be certified for both countries and need two drivers' licences. I don't know of any engineers working in three countries except for the Thalys-trains which run from the UK (London) through France to Belgium (Brussels) without crew-changes.

[Hugh Jampton]

It is 5% per additional system. In Beaulieus example, you have one system plus three more, makes 15% more. If an electric engine costs 3 million Euros, so it is 450 000 Euros more.

Swiss Federal Railways employs engineers working in Germany and Switzerland. They have to be certified for both countries and need two drivers' licences. I don't know of any engineers working in three countries except for the Thalys-trains which run from the UK (London) through France to Belgium (Brussels) without crew-changes.

You mean the Eurostar drivers. They have to know 4 different systems, English, French, Belgian and TVM430 (the in cab system used on the high speed lines). This is one of the reasons that these drivers are the highest paid in Europe at around £40,000 per year.

[martin.knoepfel]

What do they do if the train goes to Cologne (Germany)? Do they change driver at Bruxelles? Dwell time would be sufficient to do so.

[Hugh Jampton]

Are you sure you're not confusing Thalys and Eurostar. They're 2 seperate companies
Thalys (a maroon coloured train) is owned by SNCF, SNCB, NS & DB and runs Paris - Amsterdam and Clologne. Their web site is http://www.thalys.com and a route map can be found at
http://goeurope.about.com/od/traintravelineurope/ss/thalys_info.htm

Eurostar on the other hand (a yellow and cream coloured train) are owed by London & Continental Railways and run London - Paris, Brussels, Avignon and Bourge-Saint-Maurice (as far s I know it's only Franch crews that operate to these last destinations). Their website is http://www.eurostar.com (and it's not that great IMO, no company info at all) and a map is at http://goeurope.about.com/library/bl_eurostar_intro.htm

Both trains are TGV deriviatives and the cabs are almost the same. The difference is in the handling due to extra traction motors on the Eurostar which were required to operate in the Chunnel (A fully laden Eurostar with a dead power car must still be able to climb the steep gradients at the end of the tunnel).

[beaulieu]

Are you sure you're not confusing Thalys and Eurostar. They're 2 seperate companies
Thalys (a maroon coloured train) is owned by SNCF, SNCB, NS & DB and runs Paris - Amsterdam and Clologne. Their web site is http://www.thalys.com and a route map can be found at
http://goeurope.about.com/od/traintravelineurope/ss/thalys_info.htm

Eurostar on the other hand (a yellow and cream coloured train) are owed by London & Continental Railways and run London - Paris, Brussels, Avignon and Bourge-Saint-Maurice (as far s I know it's only Franch crews that operate to these last destinations). Their website is http://www.eurostar.com (and it's not that great IMO, no company info at all) and a map is at http://goeurope.about.com/library/bl_eurostar_intro.htm

Both trains are TGV deriviatives and the cabs are almost the same. The difference is in the handling due to extra traction motors on the Eurostar which were required to operate in the Chunnel (A fully laden Eurostar with a dead power car must still be able to climb the steep gradients at the end of the tunnel).

Hugh, it is possible for a Thalys Driver to need to know 4 countries, France, Belgium, Netherlands, and Germany. Whether any do is another question. The last issue of Todays Railways Europe reports that both Eurostar and SNCF are running afoul of the new requirement to run a route at least once every six months to retain route knowledge. Trains have had to be annulled when problems closed the normal route and no Driver was rested and available with the required route knowledge for the diversion. Eurostar was quoted as saying that it was too expensive to keep a large number of Drivers current on all the possible diversions for use in emergencies only. Planned diversions for maintanence is different.

Separately freight is of course different from these, mostly speeds are too slow to require more than two countries. For example SBB Cargo on the container trains from Aachen (Belgium) runs Aachen to Mainz and change, Mainz to Offenburg and change, Offenburg to Arth Goldau or Basle(these are the only crews who need to know about Elke. Arth-Goldau to Bellinzona or Chiasso change and then into Italy.

[MStLfan]

For those who lost tracks with the steel train twisting and turning through the Netherlands on avoiding tracks and freight rings.

First map is the part Uitgeest to Rotterdam. But for a small piece of track near the southeastern part of Amsterdam you can make this same trip by train. Second is from Rotterdam to Venlo at the border with Germany.

 

 

And the direct route from Beverwijk (station next to the steelworks, south of Uitgeest) to the border at Zevenaar / Emmerich:

All maps were taken from the website of NS, from its travel planner.

Note: there is a direct line south of Beverwijk via the Velsertunnel. The grade into the tunnel starts at the south and of Beverwijk station. Heavy freight trains do not use that route because they have trouble getting out of the tunnel.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[beaulieu]

Thanks, Marc where do the trains run around? I guesed at Uitgeest station but that's hardly ideal. Given how busy most of the NS network is.

[MStLfan]

Indeed that place is not ideal but all there is apparently. The alternative means backing up the train at the north lead in Beverwijk and make a run at / through the Velsertunnel.

On the other hand, not that many trains make use of this route so with creative scheduling it should be possible.

Remember, the steel works is located next to the sea. It's port for raw materials is ouside the canallocks. It's barge harbor is inside the locks. Most of it's production moves by sea or canal / river and truck.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[MStLfan]

As I related on another thread I went to the Deventer second hand book fair last sunday. I changed trains in Zwolle and saw the last 3 remaining cars of the Dutch / Swiss TEE trains, still in Ontario Northland / Northlander paint (yellow. light blue band and black Northlander on the nose).

In Deventer there was a steam train with 23.071 5 "blokkendozen" passenger cars (1920's former emu's) and diesel 2530, the last of 2400 class build by Alsthom and a one of a kind. It performed a shuttle service to Zutphen I think.

I had no photo equipment with me, darn!

Tonight the radio reported the arrival of the first GTW's from Stadler of Bussnang Switzerland for Arriva via Nieuweschans in the Netherlands. It will move to Leeuwarden and then to Groningen were it can be inspected. There is a photo contest till 15 september.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

 

[RudyRockvilleMD]

We are planning a trip to Europe in the fall. As a part of the trip we will take a cruise on the Danube River from Bucharest, Romania to Budapest, Hungary. Are there any restrictions on photographing trains or streetcars in Bucharest or Budapest from streets, parks, or railroad stations.?

[beaulieu]

We are planning a trip to Europe in the fall. As a part of the trip we will take a cruise on the Danube River from Bucharest, Romania to Budapest, Hungary. Are there any restrictions on photographing trains or streetcars in Bucharest or Budapest from streets, parks, or railroad stations.?

Rudy, I would suggest posting that question on the usenet newsgroup. misc.transport.rail.europe or joining the yahoogroup EuroRail. The yahoogroup involves telling the moderator about yourself as a way of filtering out spammers. On both groups their are large groups of English-speaker Europeans with experience traveling in Eastern Europe. Alternatively I would suggest creating a new thread as a way to catch the eye of someone who may be experienced, but isn't interested in this discussion. Right now the Europeans are enjoying very cheap air fares to many Eastern countries.

[Hugh Jampton]

Right now the Europeans are enjoying very cheap air fares to many Eastern countries.

You ain't wrong there,, why, I can fly to somewhere unpronouncable for little more than a tenner, provided I want to fly on Tuesday morning at 06:00 in a sardine can...

[beaulieu]

Right now the Europeans are enjoying very cheap air fares to many Eastern countries.

You ain't wrong there,, why, I can fly to somewhere unpronouncable for little more than a tenner, provided I want to fly on Tuesday morning at 06:00 in a sardine can...

That may just have changed a bit today. Glad you Brits are on the ball.

[MStLfan]

I'am glad that I am not flying soon. Long distance flights may get boring if we can't even take the latest issue of trains with us into the cabin. Not to mention all those tax free goodies....

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Murphy Siding]

      I'm of the conclusion that in Britain, the passenger business is the main business of the railroads, and freight is secondary.  Is this true of the continent also?  And further, what are the main freight hauls and corridors in Europe? What is it?/Where does it come from?/Where does it go?-that sort of thing?   Thanks

[MStLfan]

Murphy,

This is true for most of western Europe. Exceptions are dedicated freight lines (existing like some routes in the Ruhr area of Germany or future ones like the Betuweroute here in the Netherlands).

One of the main freight routes is from the North Sea coast over the Alps like: Rotterdam (Netherlands) - Rhine valley (Germany) - Switzerland - northern Italy. These days lots of containers to Italy as many container lines do not go into the Mediterranean (a detour for most lines). Or Belgium (Antwerp / Gent / Oostende) - Germany - Switzerland - Italy. Or Hamburg / Bremerhaven / Emden (Germany) to Italy.

Another route is northern France - southern France and then to Italy or Spain. Due to the frequent strikes on French railroads and the considerably less than enthousiastic implementation of the EU open access directive much traffic now goes via Germany. Italy was thought of by many in the Netherlands as not quick to implement EU directives but at least on this score they are in the midfield. Belgiumand France are lacking.

Presumably we will see ever increasing freight traffic to the new countries in middle and eastern Europe as their economies keep improving. Due to the efficient and strategically located ports along the North Sea compared to detours to the Baltic or Mediterranean Seas this will become a major corridor.

Occasionally passenger traffic will lose out to freight, even during rush hours. The Utrecht - Arnhem line in the Netherlands lost a local to create more paths in the timetable for freights from IJmuiden (Corus steelworks) / Amstrdam and Rotterdam.

One other point of interest: more and more old border crossing are seeing a comeback of passenger and even freight service. In the Netherlands: Nieuweschans - Leer in the north (Germany, passenger and freight) and Enschede - Gronau (Germany, passenger). In the south it is Heerlen - Aachen (passenger, Germany). Maastricht - Liege is going to be upgraded to full Belgian intercity status with, probably, hourly service.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

 

[beaulieu]

      I'm of the conclusion that in Britain, the passenger business is the main business of the railroads, and freight is secondary.  Is this true of the continent also?  And further, what are the main freight hauls and corridors in Europe? What is it?/Where does it come from?/Where does it go?-that sort of thing?   Thanks

Marc has covered it pretty well, but I would like to add that on the Continental Europe freight has the distances to make railfreight viable, while in the UK distances are so short. Railfreight in Switzerland is as strong as it is in the US by percentage. Every industry has a siding and there are freight cars being loaded and unload, Austria is close behind. What may dim Americans perception of European freights is the overwhelming volume of the passenger trains. Imagine sitting in a little cafe in Rudesheim, Germany sipping a nice Beer or local wine, munching on a nice pretzel looking out across a doubletrack mainline with 10 freights and 2 passenger trains per hour, on the far side of the tracks is the Rhine river with barges and cruise ships, and on the far bank another busy rail line. beyond it all vineyard covered hills. What could be better. Simply put the busiest mainlines for freight in Europe will have more freights than the BNSF Transcon, or UP's Overland route, plus they will have a lot of passenger trains too. Yes, the freights will be shorter, and the more common electrics make less noise (not silent though).

[Murphy Siding]

Presumably we will see ever increasing freight traffic to the new countries in middle and eastern Europe as their economies keep improving. Due to the efficient and strategically located ports along the North Sea compared to detours to the Baltic or Mediterranean Seas this will become a major corridor.

Marc Immeker

     It would appear that Germany would be the crossroads of a whole lot of future traffic?  Are railroads there aniticipating growth from the east?        Thanks

   

[beaulieu]

Presumably we will see ever increasing freight traffic to the new countries in middle and eastern Europe as their economies keep improving. Due to the efficient and strategically located ports along the North Sea compared to detours to the Baltic or Mediterranean Seas this will become a major corridor.

Marc Immeker

     It would appear that Germany would be the crossroads of a whole lot of future traffic?  Are railroads there aniticipating growth from the east?        Thanks

Yes they are, the problems arise in the countries formerly behind the Iron Curtain, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary. In some cases old freight flows are disappearing which will create space for new ones. But passenger traffic is increasing as the citizens standard of living rises, Also even though the infrastructure is there, it needs a lot of upgrading. And the new members of the EU aren't as wealthy as the old members, the EU is making loans but there isn't enough to go around. Many US and European multinationals are opening new factories in Eastern Europe to take advantage of lower costs. For example Trinity Industries(the US railcar builder) bought and then sold, Wagon Swidinica in Poland which is now the largest freight car builder in Europe. Fiat has an automobile factory in Poland, Volkswagen built a new factory in Slovakia, etc. One of the longest regular traffic flows right now is for Ford, carrying high-cube autoparts containers from Cologne to Instanbul running 3 times per week

[owlsroost]

One of the longest regular traffic flows right now is for Ford, carrying high-cube autoparts containers from Cologne to Instanbul running 3 times per week

The new 'Orient Express' maybe?

Tony

[daveklepper]

Does anyone know if there was an AC high voltage electrification anywhere in the World in 1903?