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Continental European Railway Operations

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Posted by beaulieu on Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:37 AM
One thing that has caused problems for all European Railways is the boom and bust cycle for locomotive orders, the national railways seemed to place a large order and completely renew either the electric or diesel fleet over a few years and then no further order for 15 to 20 years, that makes it hard for the builders to survive. Hopefully with the rise of the new Open Access operators this cycle will be broken and some fleet renewal will be constantly undertaken.

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Posted by martin.knoepfel on Friday, September 15, 2006 7:12 PM
Friday afternoon, a set of four Arrivas ran through Weinfelden. I saw them from the office, but was to late for the foto. Most probably, it was a test-train before those arrivas were accepted by the carrier.
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Posted by beaulieu on Friday, September 15, 2006 9:22 PM
 martin.knoepfel wrote:
Friday afternoon, a set of four Arrivas ran through Weinfelden. I saw them from the office, but was to late for the foto. Most probably, it was a test-train before those arrivas were accepted by the carrier.


Were these something new from Stadler for Arriva's Dutch rail operations?
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Posted by beaulieu on Friday, September 15, 2006 10:55 PM
Politicians in Switzerland are questioning SBB Cargo's strategy in expanding into Germany and Italy. Not good. There are some suggestions for rapproachment with DB, I can see the EU not liking that one bit.
The customers won't be happy either.
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Posted by martin.knoepfel on Saturday, September 16, 2006 1:39 PM
I'll try to find out, but I cannot promise a result. IMHO, it is very probable becaus Bussnang is located next to Weinfelden, where my office is. At Bussnang, Stadlerrail has a plant that manufactures GTW EMUs and DMUs.

@beaulieu. I'll try to find the artice in the "Tages-Anzeiger" of last Friday, but only next week.

Last sunday, Swiss sunday-newspapers reported SBB Cargo and BLS Cargo mulled merger. The project was not known until last sunday and was abortes. It became clear and obvious, the Swiss Competition Commission would never approve such a merger since the two carriers would have more than 90 % market-share in Switzerland.
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Posted by martin.knoepfel on Saturday, September 16, 2006 2:03 PM
Here a funny story. There is a lot of water pouring out of the Lötschberg-Tunnel. The railroad-tunnel is to be opened in 2007. The water is 18 to 22 degrees Celsius. Now, the Swiss environmental-laws set a limit to heating up rivers or creeks by warm water flowing into them: 0,5 degrees Celsius. (That causes  problems for nuclear power plants during hot summers, too.) The water from the Lötschberg-Tunnel would exceed this limit. So it will be used to cultivate tropical fruits at Frutigen on the north grade of the Lötschberg Railway and to cultivate sturgeons. Big Smile [:D]


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Posted by Tulyar15 on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:04 AM

Talking of hot water, and steam, I gather from an article in "Steam Railway" that as many as 50 0-6-0T's survive in use as industrial switchers in the former Yugoslav republics. Most of these are post WW2 copies of the US Army 0-6-0T (Class 'USA' on the Southern Railway in England!) but a few are genuine ex-US Army ones.

The group who imported one of these locos to Britain a few years ago have just imported another one, which has just been overhauled. They plant to modify its cab to make it accessible for wheel chair bound people.

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Posted by martin.knoepfel on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 3:14 PM
Today, newspaper reported Märklin model-railroad-manufacturer is up 4 % on sales in the first two quartes of 2006. In May, Märklin was sold to financial-investor Kingsbridge.

On the other side, Lehmann, manufacturer of LGG Garden  Trains,  sought protection against. I t seems to be a kind of chapter-11-procedurde.


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Posted by MStLfan on Thursday, September 21, 2006 6:20 AM

I think that here in the Netherlands all steam engines are on the register as a historic object. I am surprised that they can get away with it in England to modify the cab. Isn't it easier to make a platform rather than modify a steam loco cab (especially with such small loco's)?

greetings,

Marc Immeker

For whom the Bell Tolls John Donne From Devotions upon Emergent Occasions (1623), XVII: Nunc Lento Sonitu Dicunt, Morieris - PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.
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Posted by MStLfan on Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:42 AM

The InnoTrans exhibition in Berlin has just finished and it looks like we might get a horspower race here in Europe with new 4000 hp locomotives.

Eisenbahn Kurier has this link with pictures:

http://www.eisenbahn-kurier.de/aktuell/news_innotrans_2006.html

Check under Voith and Vossloh.

If I remember correctly Voith wil contract out the actual construction as the make only hydraulic equipment.

This site has links to manufacturers:

http://www.eisenbahn-kurier.de/service/links/links_hersteller.html

greetings,

Marc Immeker

For whom the Bell Tolls John Donne From Devotions upon Emergent Occasions (1623), XVII: Nunc Lento Sonitu Dicunt, Morieris - PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.
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Posted by beaulieu on Saturday, September 23, 2006 1:13 PM
 marcimmeker wrote:


<snipped>

If I remember correctly Voith will contract out the actual construction as they make only hydraulic equipment.

This site has links to manufacturers:

http://www.eisenbahn-kurier.de/service/links/links_hersteller.html

greetings,

Marc Immeker



Marc, Voith is now building their own locomotives, since they feel that Vossloh is moving away from emphasising Voith hydraulic transmissions. Voith is really digging at Vossloh, as their new plant is located in Kiel just a few kilometers from the Vossloh plant, and is being managed by a former Vossloh manager and using some former Vossloh employees. Also at Innotrans, Voith announced two or three smaller locomotives desinged to give them a complete line including switching locomotives. Interesting that Voith chose a Belgian diesel for their 40CC locomotive, the thought is that they are trying for the B-Cargo order.

Did you see the announcement at Innotrans, that Mitsui Rail Capital Europe (MRCE) bought Dispolok Gmbh from Siemens AG? This gives MRCE
a huge fleet of modern locomotives for lease in Europe. On top of that they have given both Siemens and Bombardier large orders for further locomotives to be delivered over the next few years.
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Posted by martin.knoepfel on Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:45 PM
25 years ago, the first French High-Speed-ROW (TGV) from Paris suburbs to Lyon suburbs  went into service. The trainsets can run at 155 mph. The newest TGV-ROW to the east of France will be good for 220 mph-running. Thanks to the TGV, many cities came within commuter-distance to Paris, for example Lille in Northern France. On the other side, building the TGV-ROWs and runnig the high-speed-trains syphoned off so many francs or euro there is little left for the rest of the network, because not all the TGV-connections make a profit. (Paris-Lyon does.) The new TGV-ROW to the east is in part a politcal project, because the east of France is a kind of French rust-belt.

As to freight. SBB Cargo, the Cargo-division of the Swiss Federal Railways, hauls new cars from Zeebrügge (Belgium) - mostly Toyotas - and Rotterdam to a distribution-center in Switzerland. For a the trains from Zebrügge, the team with B-Cargo which runs the trains from there to Aachen (Germany). SBB Cargo however has responsability for on-time-arrival. Before, four different railroads took care of the trains which resulted in lower service-quality
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:31 AM
      It seems that most of the discussion on this thread is about passenger traffic, and merchandise traffic-containers and such.  Is there a lot of coal and grain hauled by trains on the continent as well?

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by beaulieu on Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:15 PM
 Murphy Siding wrote:
      It seems that most of the discussion on this thread is about passenger traffic, and merchandise traffic-containers and such.  Is there a lot of coal and grain hauled by trains on the continent as well?


Murphy, European Railways are cursed by many of the countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, France, and parts of Germany, having well developed canal systems. With the barge operators not having to pay to build or maintain the canals, merely fuel costs, the railways handle bulk items only to areas not served by the canals. There are some shorthaul movements of coal from the barge terminals in the Ruhr to various customers, and some long distance flows of Coal and Iron Ore. Most German coal-burning powerplants are located at minemouth, so their rail haul is just a short distance industrial type operation. There is movement of Coal and Iron Ore to the Saar region of Germany from Rotterdam, in the Netherlands. This area is not well served by canals due to the hilly terrain.

In the last few years this is beginning to change for the better grades of coal used in steel making. German and French mines for this grade of coal are mined out, so most of it is coming from Southern Poland, in the area of Katowice. Because this area lacks canals, the railways are now running 5 to 6 trains per day of this coal or coke (some is converted before shipment) to the Ruhr. The route of this trains is via the border at Horka, then Halle, Nordhausen, Kassel, and then Hamm. Some grain does move in trainload lots, but the barges get most of this. The recent European Bulls move mentioned by Marc, is notable. Perhaps with Open Access, there will be more movement of Grain by rail over longer distances. Some specialty grains do move in carload trains.

One thing that may help the railways for coal hauling in Germany in the future, is that most German coal now being mined is low quality Lignite like that mined in North Dakota, the Germans are starting to import more coal from Russia and further away, there is some potential for the railways to compete since some of the largest power plants were built near the old mines and not on the canals. The largest coal flow for power generation right now, is from the port of Bremerhaven to the Lahde powerstation near Minden.
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Posted by MStLfan on Monday, October 2, 2006 3:15 PM

 Murphy Siding wrote:
      It seems that most of the discussion on this thread is about passenger traffic, and merchandise traffic-containers and such.  Is there a lot of coal and grain hauled by trains on the continent as well?

Murphy, here are some observations on unit train movements from my vantagepoint:

Agricultural: it depends on such factors as the EU buying overproduction and then having to find places to store this so called intervention grain before it is sold. The old NS Cargo seems to have had a negative attitude to some types of cargo as well as service problems so they more or less abandoned this traffic. Currently Rail4chem are delivering 1 or 2 grain trains to an elevator in Rotterdam where before the elevator could not get reliable service from NS Cargo / Railion. Much of the agricutural stuff moves relative short distances from storage areas near farms to processing plants by truck. An interesting move is potatoes from Coevorden (on the eastern border with Germany) to various places in Europe including Russia in reefers (to keep them from freezing). There used to be widespread movement of sugarbeets from farms to refineries by train (and steamtram in earlier days as well) but this has gone to trucks in most of Europe, certainly in the Netherlands and Germany. There is some bulk sugar movement to the Eemshaven in the north for export overseas.

Coal: EECV in Rotterdam Europoort are extending their coal storage area. They now move some 5 million tons of coal, half by barge and half by rail. This is goiing to double in the coming years. The 25 million tons of ore move exclusively by barge to a steelworks of their owner in the Ruhr area.

Coal is increasing mostly because the remaining German coal mines are going to be closed. Many more powerplants not located near the Rhine or a canal will need to import their coal from somewhere but mostly from overseas (South Africa and Colombia).

Of course, rail traffic in the Netherlands isn't helped by having a large steelworks right on the North Sea coast (Corus IJmuiden). It does get its limestone from Belgium by the trainload though. Another limestone product moves from Belgium to Veendam in the north where it is used in making firebrick.

Remember this: the hart of Europe with most of the consumers are located within 500 to 800 km from the major seaports Rotterdam, Hamburg, Antwerp, Bremen or Le Havre. This means that most distribution is by truck. Rotterdam and Antwerp have good connections for barges via the Rhine and branches / tributaries. Hamburg, Bremen and Le Havre are less well situated on the Elbe, Weser and Seine respectively with regard to moving freight by barge.

Last saturday I was in an old medieval city called Zaltbommel which is situated on the river Waal (a branch of the Rhine, the busiest branch in fact) and in 15 minutes I saw 2 coal ships and 3 Rhine ships with containers. Two of them had around 200 teu (twenty foot equivalent units) whereas the longest container trains in the Netherlands are currently limited to 99 teu on 33 18 meter long 4 axle cars...

Scrap metal often moves by barge but also by train. Scrap wood is currently going by the trainload from Roosendaal in the Netherlands to a particleboard maker in Italy, several times a week. Ten years ago there was overproduction of aluminum. Every free place in the harbor of Rotterdam was full of the stuff. It arrived by train and ship and a few years later it was gone, some of it by train. Occasionally you can see unit trains of aluminum, copper and of course frequently steel in its various forms.

Some creative scheduling is done with autocarriers. Peugeot cars from France arrive in Oosterhout in the south of the Netherlands. The empties are moved to either Rotterdam or Amsterdam for loading Japanese cars and are send to various destinations in Europe and then move empty to France.

Often it is a matter of seeing possibilities and finding the right customer with a particular need.

A few years ago the remains of a hurricane came over Europe. The resulting number of downed trees are still being moved by rail across Germany to various paper making companies. This traffic hardly existed before and several new open access companies are running these trains.

What is a waste for some is a sourcw for others. ACTS moves waste plastic from a recycling center to a chemical plant in Germany. Fly ash from a German powerplant is used in making gypsum by a company in Delfzijl in the north of the Netherlands, 1 train a week I think.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

For whom the Bell Tolls John Donne From Devotions upon Emergent Occasions (1623), XVII: Nunc Lento Sonitu Dicunt, Morieris - PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.
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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 5, 2006 1:37 PM
If I remember correctly, the first 25,000V 50Hz AC electrification was in France for coal trains, some 45 years ago.
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Posted by martin.knoepfel on Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:58 PM
In France, the first 25kV-50 Hz electrification was from Metz to Thionville in Eastern France. Mostly coal trains with steeple-cab-electrics (4 and 6 axles). At least one of the small electrics survived in
Luxemburg, although actually not in operable condition. Luxemburg had most of its mainlines electrified with 25 kv / 50 Hz and bought engines (and EMUs) of French design.

The first 50 Hz electrification on a larger scale was in Hungary in the 1920s. The locomotives were designed by Kalman Kando and converted single phase AC (50 Hz) to three-phase AC. I don't know the voltage, but it was lower than 25 kV. Test-electrifications with 50 Hz 22kV existed in Germany in the thirties. IIRC, at least one Kando-boxcab exists in a museum, but there is no railroad left it could operate on because after WW II, Hungary converted the electrified mainlines to 25 kV.

Here is a link to a model of a Kando-engine. They existed in a version with six driving and no trailing axles too.

www.deakmodellsport.hu/0de.html
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Posted by MStLfan on Friday, October 6, 2006 3:49 AM

After northeastern France it was northern France. The line from Dunkerque towards the coal and steel region in the northeast is / was in use as a supply line of iron ore and steel products the other way.

After the success of these electrifications all new electrifications have been 25 kv / 50 Hz with, maybe, the exeption of some lines in the southwest that connected to the older 1500 v dc electrification. If I remember correctly everthing north and east of the line Le Havre - Paris - Marseille is 25 kv / 50 Hz and the rest 1500 v dc with the exeption of some recently electrified lines with TGV traffic (dedicated line from Paris in the direction of Bordeaux as well as existing lines like those in Bretagne).

And with the TGV coming to the Netherlands we are now also on the bandwagon of 25 kv / 50 hz. If or when the rest of the Netherlands, apart from the high speed line to the south and the Betuweroute freigth line to the east, changes over is not clear. All new equipment of the last 10 years or so is prepared but it will cost a lot of money.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

For whom the Bell Tolls John Donne From Devotions upon Emergent Occasions (1623), XVII: Nunc Lento Sonitu Dicunt, Morieris - PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.
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Posted by martin.knoepfel on Friday, October 6, 2006 5:37 PM
@marc: What will the Belgians do if the Netherlands go to 25kV / 50 Hz AC. They are in between the two countries and rely actually on 3kV DC?

The French TGV-lines have 25 kV / 50 Hz AC, but at least the first-generation-TGVs are able to operate under 1,5 kV DC too. They have to to get into Gare du Midi (South Station) in Paris and into many other towns. Some TGVs run under three systems (15 kV 16,7 Hz too)

From my office-window, I can see regularly unit-tank-trains running through Weinfelden, as well as unit-gravel-trains.
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Posted by MStLfan on Friday, October 6, 2006 7:00 PM

Hi Martin,

The Belgian high speed line is also 25 kv, no problems there. Changeover from 1500 v dc here in the Netherlands was put on ice because of the cost. What with the cost of the high speed line, Betuweroute freight line and backlogs in maintenance and increasing capacity it will not happen soon I think. As far as I understand these things 3000 v dc is a better system than 1500 v dc so there is less need for the Belgians to change.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

For whom the Bell Tolls John Donne From Devotions upon Emergent Occasions (1623), XVII: Nunc Lento Sonitu Dicunt, Morieris - PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.
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Posted by beaulieu on Saturday, October 7, 2006 1:06 AM
 marcimmeker wrote:

Hi Martin,

The Belgian high speed line is also 25 kv, no problems there. Changeover from 1500 v dc here in the Netherlands was put on ice because of the cost. What with the cost of the high speed line, Betuweroute freight line and backlogs in maintenance and increasing capacity it will not happen soon I think. As far as I understand these things 3000 v dc is a better system than 1500 v dc so there is less need for the Belgians to change.

greetings,

Marc Immeker




The Belgians have quite a bit of 25Kv. besides the high-speed lines. The line through the Ardennes to Luxembourg, and the freight line from Dinant to Athus. are already 25Kv.

John Beaulieu
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Posted by martin.knoepfel on Sunday, October 8, 2006 5:21 PM
The French experience with HST is quite interesting. Below 2,5 hours trip-time, the railroad takes away almost all the patronage from the airplanes. At 3 hours, it is still roughly 70 %, and at 4 hours 50 %.
More time-consuming passenger-controls because of the fear of terrorirst will certainly boost railroad-share of intercity traffic.

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 8, 2006 6:39 PM

Hi, I'm a new boy from the UK, who has followed European Railway activity for years. I am a retired railway manager, and even at 62 an aspiring consultant!

As its way passed my bedtime, this post will be brief.

The European Union, so far as railways are concerned, is a joke.

How Interoperbility, Private Access, Voltage changes etc. works, depends on which Country you are studying.

Germany, and Romania ( the last joining the EU on 01-01-2007) have a considerable numberof private freight operators.One of the interesting things about private railfreight is the number of old loco's, which would otherwise have been scrapped. A small firm starting up, obviously wants to keep his capital outlay to a minimum.

He has three choices, buy new, lease a modern loco ( Siemens Dispolok seems about the most prominent) or buy an old one and "do it up".With a new multi - voltage loco, a reasonable price tag is about $3 million, renting one about 10% per annum.However buying a second hand one, can be very cheap, your biggest expense getting all the permissions to run on the Network.As an example a sound, well maintained 15kv Austrian Co-Co electric was sold by the State Railway for about $20,000!

The only condition was that it could not work on Austrian railfreight.

The nonsense over the various electric supplies, is mainly historical. Without giving a full list, below is just a few examples:

Holland 1.5k DC.   Belgium, Italy, Poland 3.0k DC.    France both 25kv AC and 1.5k DC    Germany, Austria, Switzerland 15kv AC.   Hungary, UK, and most new lines, and all new High speed lines, are 25kv, the simplest and compatable to national power grids

Building a multi voltage loco is now almost the same as a single voltage, the Austrian 25/15kv AC class 1116, was about 10% more expensive than the single 15kv 1016 of the same design.One service to benefit was the Vienna -Budapest. Where previously, the Austrian loco had to be changed for a Hungarian one, the change point and national boundary being only a few miles east of Vienna, with a 1116, the regular service ( about hourly) the loco runs right through.

I'm afraid I've only scratched the surface of this fascinating subject. Different voltages are only one problem. France, though a founder state in the EU, takes the attitude "if it ain't built here it can't run". The "roadrailer" which is used extensively in the US has mainly only operated in Germany and Italy.The French SNCF have had one for over ten years, and as the editor of one magazine says, they only keep testing it, until it derails, when they can say its unsafe!

I hope to post again in a few days, but if anyone would like to respond, on whether I am providing useful information or otherwise, please do so. One day it is my hope to write a book on European railways, as well as my consutancy, but increasing senility will probably stop ambition.

The magazine I referred to is "Todays Railways Europe". there is also a TR for the UK

Take care all

Railway Andy

 

Back in the 50's and60's multi voltage machines were expensive, complex, and thus more to go wrong.

Finally for tonight    

 

 

 

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Posted by beaulieu on Monday, October 9, 2006 12:52 PM
 railwayandy wrote:

Hi, I'm a new boy from the UK, who has followed European Railway activity for years. I am a retired railway manager, and even at 62 an aspiring consultant!

Welcome to the forums Railway Andy, I am looking forward to your contributions, especially to this discussion.


As its way passed my bedtime, this post will be brief.

The European Union, so far as railways are concerned, is a joke.

How Interoperbility, Private Access, Voltage changes etc. works, depends on which Country you are studying.

Germany, and Romania ( the last joining the EU on 01-01-2007) have a considerable numberof private freight operators.One of the interesting things about private railfreight is the number of old loco's, which would otherwise have been scrapped. A small firm starting up, obviously wants to keep his capital outlay to a minimum.

But do you think there would be any progress at all without the European Commission pushing?


He has three choices, buy new, lease a modern loco ( Siemens Dispolok seems about the most prominent) or buy an old one and "do it up".With a new multi - voltage loco, a reasonable price tag is about $3 million, renting one about 10% per annum.However buying a second hand one, can be very cheap, your biggest expense getting all the permissions to run on the Network.As an example a sound, well maintained 15kv Austrian Co-Co electric was sold by the State Railway for about $20,000!

The only condition was that it could not work on Austrian railfreight.

A couple of points here, are you aware that within the last month Siemens is selling Dispolok to Mitsui Rail Capital Europe (MRCE) subject to regulatory approval? I think that Siemens found out it is best not to compete with your customers, Bombardier also had a locomotive leasing company for a couple of years called "Lokpool". Notice that the other leasing companies Angel Trains, CB Rail, Mitsui (MRCE) weren't buying Siemens locomotives. BTW - the Austrian locomotives Class 1042/1142 were Bo-Bo.


The nonsense over the various electric supplies, is mainly historical. Without giving a full list, below is just a few examples:

Holland 1.5k DC.   Belgium, Italy, Poland 3.0k DC.    France both 25kv AC and 1.5k DC    Germany, Austria, Switzerland 15kv AC.   Hungary, UK, and most new lines, and all new High speed lines, are 25kv, the simplest and compatable to national power grids

Building a multi voltage loco is now almost the same as a single voltage, the Austrian 25/15kv AC class 1116, was about 10% more expensive than the single 15kv 1016 of the same design.One service to benefit was the Vienna -Budapest. Where previously, the Austrian loco had to be changed for a Hungarian one, the change point and national boundary being only a few miles east of Vienna, with a 1116, the regular service ( about hourly) the loco runs right through.

Yes, Multi-Voltage is now the standard, Multi-System (AC/DC) are still a more expensive option, I don't think the MS type will become the Universal choice with the growing network of Freight lines being equipped with 25kV. Bigger problems are the various safety systems, Signum, Integra,LZB,SCMT, TVM, etc. The rollout of ETCS, is going to be critical. I think we are going to see a narrow window of opportunity to get the system deployed over critical mainlines before the European Governments are forced to divert expenditures away from Rail Infrastructure to pressing Social Needs. Already most EU countries are cutting back on subsidies for railfreight. And funding for major projects are disappearing. The Brenner Base Tunnel and others are at risk.


I'm afraid I've only scratched the surface of this fascinating subject. Different voltages are only one problem. France, though a founder state in the EU, takes the attitude "if it ain't built here it can't run". The "roadrailer" which is used extensively in the US has mainly only operated in Germany and Italy.The French SNCF have had one for over ten years, and as the editor of one magazine says, they only keep testing it, until it derails, when they can say its unsafe!

I hope to post again in a few days, but if anyone would like to respond, on whether I am providing useful information or otherwise, please do so. One day it is my hope to write a book on European railways, as well as my consutancy, but increasing senility will probably stop ambition.

The magazine I referred to is "Todays Railways Europe". there is also a TR for the UK

Take care all

Railway Andy

 

Back in the 50's and60's multi voltage machines were expensive, complex, and thus more to go wrong.

Finally for tonight  



Looking forward to carrying on this discussion, what part of the British Railways did you work in.



John Beaulieu

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Posted by martin.knoepfel on Monday, October 9, 2006 4:02 PM
Murphy Siding

There is one important ore-hauler in Europe, the Swedish-Norwegian Line from Kiruna to the port of Narvik. AFAIK, it runs the heaviest trains in Western Europe (6000 metric tons), with central-couplers. They had electric engines with side rodes and the 1-D+D+D-1 design. The line has no connections to the rest of the Norwegian system, because the Norwegians never planned to built farther north than Tromsö (and only got as far as Bodö, one of the most important NATO-airbases, BTW).

In Austria, there was the Erzberg-Bahn (literally: ore-mountain-railroad). It brought ore down to two steelworks. It was a rack-and-cog-operation and - until the late 70s - ran with steam-engines (0-F-0 and 0-C-1), both tank-engines. Today, it is a museum-railroad with railbuses running on it.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 9, 2006 9:38 PM

John

Hi. To answer the last question first. My last post was as Surveyor General, with the British Rail Propery Board, and my principal function was to work with the mainstream railway on selecting, designing, obtaining planning permission,for railfreight terminals and dealing with the complexities of rail connection to the site, as well as road access.So I qualified as a Chartered Surveyo rin 1970, and in 1981 qualified as a Chartered Member of the Institute of Logistics and Transport. Before ill health intervened, I had applied for the job of Regional Freight Manager, on the old Eastern Region at York.

All this sounds rather pompous, but not intended. Somehow I could never understand, those who were seeking promotion by always applying for new job all over the Country. However each to his own.Enjoying my work was far more important to me. Indeed I probably inherited this from my late father. He had a childhood ambition to be the man who maintained the WCML over Shap. He achieved this, and got the Settle Carlisle as well.As a teenager I went out on site with him a lot, on one memorable Sunday I ended up driving the steam engine,as they slowly structure gauged from bridge to bridge.Before drinking on duty was taken seriously,we had stopped for luch, and the fireman came back pissed out of his brains. The driver asked if I could drive, and he would fire, as at 16 I was an obvious weakling!

I know that OeBB (the e raplacing the umlaut,hiding in the bowels of this PC) class 1042/1142 are Bo-Bo's. The loco's concerned were 1010 or 1110's built between 1955 and 1958, but still sound. I may be wrong but a lot of the modern systems, needed for operation today were fitted to some.

As you probably know in the States, railways/railroads are not run for benefit of  the passenger or freight customer.In the UK at least, it is far more important to keep all the paper work in order. I'm a mild mannered guy, but I went purple with rage when a new company was formed to run just one Intermodal return trip a day. The firm folded, but not before the Dept.of Transport, the Stategic Rail Authority, ( now disbanded)the Rail Regulater, and the Health & Safety Executive had extracted in total £500,000 for the grant of an operating licence.

This post seems short on detail, and I will try to be more expansive next time.Going back to the Austrian Loco's, there was a good article in "Todays Railways" on the present and future of OeBB motive power. At the moment it is lost. There is a good web site on Interoperability. I will find it, and let you have it.

Finally, there is very strong pressure on the EU. As you are no dobt aware,the Germans have a substantial representaion in the Reichtag.The building of DB's High Speed Lines, took far longer to build than the French.To be fair they did intend the lines to be used by night freight. A last little gem - When they built/upgraded the Berlin - Hannover line, it cost them millions of Euro's to build a tunnel, deep cuttings, "false embankments" because of the nerby, albeit rare bird,the Great Bustard.To this day the ICE's have to drop speed from 250kph to 200kph when passing through the Bustard zone!

I will break copyright and let you have a copy of both articles.Indeed it may help the editor David Haydock and his team forsome of you to subscribe to Todays Railways, as I intend to subscribe to "Trains".

All the Best,

Andy

  • Member since
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  • From: NW Wisconsin
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Posted by beaulieu on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:28 AM
 railwayandy wrote:

John

Hi. To answer the last question first. My last post was as Surveyor General, with the British Rail Propery Board, and my principal function was to work with the mainstream railway on selecting, designing, obtaining planning permission,for railfreight terminals and dealing with the complexities of rail connection to the site, as well as road access.So I qualified as a Chartered Surveyo rin 1970, and in 1981 qualified as a Chartered Member of the Institute of Logistics and Transport. Before ill health intervened, I had applied for the job of Regional Freight Manager, on the old Eastern Region at York.

It seems that in recent years all the good sites for Railfreight in the London area are disappearing forever. Most of the currently operating sites are bound up with no room for expansion. What is the situation with the Cricklewood site? It is probably the last goodsized site reasonably close to London.

Regarding the Surveyor position, you would probably get along well with a gentleman on here who goes by the moniker of "mudchicken" he also is a surveyor and railway civil engineer.


All this sounds rather pompous, but not intended. Somehow I could never understand, those who were seeking promotion by always applying for new job all over the Country. However each to his own. Enjoying my work was far more important to me. Indeed I probably inherited this from my late father. He had a childhood ambition to be the man who maintained the WCML over Shap. He achieved this, and got the Settle Carlisle as well.As a teenager I went out on site with him a lot, on one memorable Sunday I ended up driving the steam engine,as they slowly structure gauged from bridge to bridge.Before drinking on duty was taken seriously,we had stopped for luch, and the fireman came back pissed out of his brains. The driver asked if I could drive, and he would fire, as at 16 I was an obvious weakling!

I know that OeBB (the e raplacing the umlaut,hiding in the bowels of this PC) class 1042/1142 are Bo-Bo's. The loco's concerned were 1010 or 1110's built between 1955 and 1958, but still sound. I may be wrong but a lot of the modern systems, needed for operation today were fitted to some.

Hmm, the Platform 5 roster book German Railways Part 2, Private Railways and Museums, shows that 3 Austrian Class 1020s are registered in Germany but no 1010s or 1110s. Of course the 1020s were built just before or during WW2 as German Class E94s later Baureihe 194s, and just stayed in Austria when the Anschluss was undone.


As you probably know in the States, railways/railroads are not run for benefit of  the passenger or freight customer.In the UK at least, it is far more important to keep all the paper work in order. I'm a mild mannered guy, but I went purple with rage when a new company was formed to run just one Intermodal return trip a day. The firm folded, but not before the Dept.of Transport, the Stategic Rail Authority, ( now disbanded)the Rail Regulater, and the Health & Safety Executive had extracted in total £500,000 for the grant of an operating licence.

I am not sure that I agree with you here, The company being formed to operate just one return working per day doesn't sound necessarily bad to me, if they can justify it economically or at least environmentally. The fact that the firm folded apparently fairly quickly suggests that they were undercapitalized and had a poor business plan. And I don't see the 500,000 GBP license fee as being excessive, not that the ORR has costs that high, but rather it will discourge companies that have no business trying to operate a railfreight company from even starting.


This post seems short on detail, and I will try to be more expansive next time.Going back to the Austrian Loco's, there was a good article in "Todays Railways" on the present and future of OeBB motive power. At the moment it is lost. There is a good web site on Interoperability. I will find it, and let you have it.

I am a subscriber to Today's Railways Europe, indeed today I just wrote a e-mail to David Haydock the editor concerning some inaccuracies in an article in the current issue. I received a prompt response thanking me for writing him. I have been a subscriber for a little over two years, but I don't remember the story about OeBB locomotives.


Finally, there is very strong pressure on the EU. As you are no doubt aware,the Germans have a substantial representaion in the Reichtag.The building of DB's High Speed Lines, took far longer to build than the French.To be fair they did intend the lines to be used by night freight. A last little gem - When they built/upgraded the Berlin - Hannover line, it cost them millions of Euro's to build a tunnel, deep cuttings, "false embankments" because of the nerby, albeit rare bird,the Great Bustard.To this day the ICE's have to drop speed from 250kph to 200kph when passing through the Bustard zone!

The DB are fighting over the Nuremburg - Erfurt highspeed line right now, there is strong opposition to building the line through the Thuringerwald (Thuringia Forest). This is the middle section of the eventual Munich to Berlin high-speed line.


I will break copyright and let you have a copy of both articles.Indeed it may help the editor David Haydock and his team forsome of you to subscribe to Todays Railways, as I intend to subscribe to "Trains".


Its not necessary for me, but a citation of the issue that the article appears in would help me obtain a copy of the back issue.


All the Best,

Andy



Thank you, by the way the website covering interoperability that you want is called "Trainspotting Bükkes" and can be found through this link
Trainspotting Bükkes
  • Member since
    April 2003
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:10 PM

Hi John

So far have not found the web site on European Railway Interoperability.

Having scanned and filed the article on OBB traction, I'm damned if I can find how you attach items.

All I can think of is to send it via Outlook Express, but I don't have your e-mail address.

So if you know how to send attachments, or are willing to let me have your e-mail address, fine.

I've a feeling that I may be asking you to do something against the rules,as I am a member of a UK forum called "Freightmaster Online ",and that can be a bit agressive about what you can do

So, I'll keep hunting for the Interoperability site, and no doubt will be hearing from you.

Regards.

Andy.

 

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: NW Wisconsin
  • 3,857 posts
Posted by beaulieu on Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:56 AM
 railwayandy wrote:

Hi John

So far have not found the web site on European Railway Interoperability.

Having scanned and filed the article on OBB traction, I'm damned if I can find how you attach items.

It is not possible to attach files to forum messages. However, look at the bottom of any post, you will see 2 icons or buttons, the first allows you to send the person an e-mail (it doesn't give you his e-mail address though). The second button allows you to send a private message or "pm". This can only be seen by the person it is addressed to, and the forum moderators. I will send you an e-mail with my e-mail address, just put OBB Locomotives for a subject line.

   Look at my previous forum message, notice that the last two words "Trainspotting Bükkes" are blue. This means that they are a hypertext link, put your mouse pointer over them and click the left mouse button and you will be taken to the website of the same name. I think it might be the website you are thinking of. In any case there is information about interoperability on the website.


All I can think of is to send it via Outlook Express, but I don't have your e-mail address.

So if you know how to send attachments, or are willing to let me have your e-mail address, fine.

I've a feeling that I may be asking you to do something against the rules,as I am a member of a UK forum called "Freightmaster Online ",and that can be a bit agressive about what you can do

So, I'll keep hunting for the Interoperability site, and no doubt will be hearing from you.

Regards.

Andy.

 



Andy, I have bought some of Mark Rawlingson's "Freightmaster" books so I know about them and Freightmaster Online. I don't have enough use of the information to subscribe.
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something different in Dordrecht this morning
Posted by MStLfan on Thursday, October 12, 2006 8:36 AM

Saw something different this morning in Dordrecht (which is south of Rotterdam on the lines to Germany and Belgium and thus sees a lot of freight traffic).

Usually at 7.14 AM there is a freight train with destination Roosendaal / Belgium passing southbound doing more than 80 kph and slowing down for the switches and curve that has a speed limit of 80 kph.

This morning it was 3 class 6400's with 38 6 axle ore cars and a special car at each and with normal screw couplings on one end and automatic ones toward the ore cars. Total weight around 5200 tons metric, making it one of the heavies of our network.

What surprised me was this. South of the harbor is the hump yard Kijfhoek, then comes the short climb to the bridge over the river Dordse Kil (a Rhine branch) between the stations of Zwijndrecht and Dordrecht. Normally trains coming down the bridge have to slow down but the ore train seemed to continue accelerating. Must be steeper than I thought, inside electric passenger trains such grades are hardly noticible anymore.

By the way these trains to Germany have to keep moving, especially during rush hour or the whole timetable comes to a standstill...

greetings,

Marc Immeker

For whom the Bell Tolls John Donne From Devotions upon Emergent Occasions (1623), XVII: Nunc Lento Sonitu Dicunt, Morieris - PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.

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