martin.knoepfel wrote:Friday afternoon, a set of four Arrivas ran through Weinfelden. I saw them from the office, but was to late for the foto. Most probably, it was a test-train before those arrivas were accepted by the carrier.
Talking of hot water, and steam, I gather from an article in "Steam Railway" that as many as 50 0-6-0T's survive in use as industrial switchers in the former Yugoslav republics. Most of these are post WW2 copies of the US Army 0-6-0T (Class 'USA' on the Southern Railway in England!) but a few are genuine ex-US Army ones.
The group who imported one of these locos to Britain a few years ago have just imported another one, which has just been overhauled. They plant to modify its cab to make it accessible for wheel chair bound people.
I think that here in the Netherlands all steam engines are on the register as a historic object. I am surprised that they can get away with it in England to modify the cab. Isn't it easier to make a platform rather than modify a steam loco cab (especially with such small loco's)?
greetings,
Marc Immeker
The InnoTrans exhibition in Berlin has just finished and it looks like we might get a horspower race here in Europe with new 4000 hp locomotives.
Eisenbahn Kurier has this link with pictures:
http://www.eisenbahn-kurier.de/aktuell/news_innotrans_2006.html
Check under Voith and Vossloh.
If I remember correctly Voith wil contract out the actual construction as the make only hydraulic equipment.
This site has links to manufacturers:
http://www.eisenbahn-kurier.de/service/links/links_hersteller.html
marcimmeker wrote:<snipped>If I remember correctly Voith will contract out the actual construction as they make only hydraulic equipment. This site has links to manufacturers: http://www.eisenbahn-kurier.de/service/links/links_hersteller.html greetings, Marc Immeker
If I remember correctly Voith will contract out the actual construction as they make only hydraulic equipment.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding wrote: It seems that most of the discussion on this thread is about passenger traffic, and merchandise traffic-containers and such. Is there a lot of coal and grain hauled by trains on the continent as well?
Murphy, here are some observations on unit train movements from my vantagepoint:
Agricultural: it depends on such factors as the EU buying overproduction and then having to find places to store this so called intervention grain before it is sold. The old NS Cargo seems to have had a negative attitude to some types of cargo as well as service problems so they more or less abandoned this traffic. Currently Rail4chem are delivering 1 or 2 grain trains to an elevator in Rotterdam where before the elevator could not get reliable service from NS Cargo / Railion. Much of the agricutural stuff moves relative short distances from storage areas near farms to processing plants by truck. An interesting move is potatoes from Coevorden (on the eastern border with Germany) to various places in Europe including Russia in reefers (to keep them from freezing). There used to be widespread movement of sugarbeets from farms to refineries by train (and steamtram in earlier days as well) but this has gone to trucks in most of Europe, certainly in the Netherlands and Germany. There is some bulk sugar movement to the Eemshaven in the north for export overseas.
Coal: EECV in Rotterdam Europoort are extending their coal storage area. They now move some 5 million tons of coal, half by barge and half by rail. This is goiing to double in the coming years. The 25 million tons of ore move exclusively by barge to a steelworks of their owner in the Ruhr area.
Coal is increasing mostly because the remaining German coal mines are going to be closed. Many more powerplants not located near the Rhine or a canal will need to import their coal from somewhere but mostly from overseas (South Africa and Colombia).
Of course, rail traffic in the Netherlands isn't helped by having a large steelworks right on the North Sea coast (Corus IJmuiden). It does get its limestone from Belgium by the trainload though. Another limestone product moves from Belgium to Veendam in the north where it is used in making firebrick.
Remember this: the hart of Europe with most of the consumers are located within 500 to 800 km from the major seaports Rotterdam, Hamburg, Antwerp, Bremen or Le Havre. This means that most distribution is by truck. Rotterdam and Antwerp have good connections for barges via the Rhine and branches / tributaries. Hamburg, Bremen and Le Havre are less well situated on the Elbe, Weser and Seine respectively with regard to moving freight by barge.
Last saturday I was in an old medieval city called Zaltbommel which is situated on the river Waal (a branch of the Rhine, the busiest branch in fact) and in 15 minutes I saw 2 coal ships and 3 Rhine ships with containers. Two of them had around 200 teu (twenty foot equivalent units) whereas the longest container trains in the Netherlands are currently limited to 99 teu on 33 18 meter long 4 axle cars...
Scrap metal often moves by barge but also by train. Scrap wood is currently going by the trainload from Roosendaal in the Netherlands to a particleboard maker in Italy, several times a week. Ten years ago there was overproduction of aluminum. Every free place in the harbor of Rotterdam was full of the stuff. It arrived by train and ship and a few years later it was gone, some of it by train. Occasionally you can see unit trains of aluminum, copper and of course frequently steel in its various forms.
Some creative scheduling is done with autocarriers. Peugeot cars from France arrive in Oosterhout in the south of the Netherlands. The empties are moved to either Rotterdam or Amsterdam for loading Japanese cars and are send to various destinations in Europe and then move empty to France.
Often it is a matter of seeing possibilities and finding the right customer with a particular need.
A few years ago the remains of a hurricane came over Europe. The resulting number of downed trees are still being moved by rail across Germany to various paper making companies. This traffic hardly existed before and several new open access companies are running these trains.
What is a waste for some is a sourcw for others. ACTS moves waste plastic from a recycling center to a chemical plant in Germany. Fly ash from a German powerplant is used in making gypsum by a company in Delfzijl in the north of the Netherlands, 1 train a week I think.
After northeastern France it was northern France. The line from Dunkerque towards the coal and steel region in the northeast is / was in use as a supply line of iron ore and steel products the other way.
After the success of these electrifications all new electrifications have been 25 kv / 50 Hz with, maybe, the exeption of some lines in the southwest that connected to the older 1500 v dc electrification. If I remember correctly everthing north and east of the line Le Havre - Paris - Marseille is 25 kv / 50 Hz and the rest 1500 v dc with the exeption of some recently electrified lines with TGV traffic (dedicated line from Paris in the direction of Bordeaux as well as existing lines like those in Bretagne).
And with the TGV coming to the Netherlands we are now also on the bandwagon of 25 kv / 50 hz. If or when the rest of the Netherlands, apart from the high speed line to the south and the Betuweroute freigth line to the east, changes over is not clear. All new equipment of the last 10 years or so is prepared but it will cost a lot of money.
Hi Martin,
The Belgian high speed line is also 25 kv, no problems there. Changeover from 1500 v dc here in the Netherlands was put on ice because of the cost. What with the cost of the high speed line, Betuweroute freight line and backlogs in maintenance and increasing capacity it will not happen soon I think. As far as I understand these things 3000 v dc is a better system than 1500 v dc so there is less need for the Belgians to change.
marcimmeker wrote:Hi Martin, The Belgian high speed line is also 25 kv, no problems there. Changeover from 1500 v dc here in the Netherlands was put on ice because of the cost. What with the cost of the high speed line, Betuweroute freight line and backlogs in maintenance and increasing capacity it will not happen soon I think. As far as I understand these things 3000 v dc is a better system than 1500 v dc so there is less need for the Belgians to change. greetings, Marc Immeker
Hi, I'm a new boy from the UK, who has followed European Railway activity for years. I am a retired railway manager, and even at 62 an aspiring consultant!
As its way passed my bedtime, this post will be brief.
The European Union, so far as railways are concerned, is a joke.
How Interoperbility, Private Access, Voltage changes etc. works, depends on which Country you are studying.
Germany, and Romania ( the last joining the EU on 01-01-2007) have a considerable numberof private freight operators.One of the interesting things about private railfreight is the number of old loco's, which would otherwise have been scrapped. A small firm starting up, obviously wants to keep his capital outlay to a minimum.
He has three choices, buy new, lease a modern loco ( Siemens Dispolok seems about the most prominent) or buy an old one and "do it up".With a new multi - voltage loco, a reasonable price tag is about $3 million, renting one about 10% per annum.However buying a second hand one, can be very cheap, your biggest expense getting all the permissions to run on the Network.As an example a sound, well maintained 15kv Austrian Co-Co electric was sold by the State Railway for about $20,000!
The only condition was that it could not work on Austrian railfreight.
The nonsense over the various electric supplies, is mainly historical. Without giving a full list, below is just a few examples:
Holland 1.5k DC. Belgium, Italy, Poland 3.0k DC. France both 25kv AC and 1.5k DC Germany, Austria, Switzerland 15kv AC. Hungary, UK, and most new lines, and all new High speed lines, are 25kv, the simplest and compatable to national power grids
Building a multi voltage loco is now almost the same as a single voltage, the Austrian 25/15kv AC class 1116, was about 10% more expensive than the single 15kv 1016 of the same design.One service to benefit was the Vienna -Budapest. Where previously, the Austrian loco had to be changed for a Hungarian one, the change point and national boundary being only a few miles east of Vienna, with a 1116, the regular service ( about hourly) the loco runs right through.
I'm afraid I've only scratched the surface of this fascinating subject. Different voltages are only one problem. France, though a founder state in the EU, takes the attitude "if it ain't built here it can't run". The "roadrailer" which is used extensively in the US has mainly only operated in Germany and Italy.The French SNCF have had one for over ten years, and as the editor of one magazine says, they only keep testing it, until it derails, when they can say its unsafe!
I hope to post again in a few days, but if anyone would like to respond, on whether I am providing useful information or otherwise, please do so. One day it is my hope to write a book on European railways, as well as my consutancy, but increasing senility will probably stop ambition.
The magazine I referred to is "Todays Railways Europe". there is also a TR for the UK
Take care all
Railway Andy
Back in the 50's and60's multi voltage machines were expensive, complex, and thus more to go wrong.
Finally for tonight
railwayandy wrote:Hi, I'm a new boy from the UK, who has followed European Railway activity for years. I am a retired railway manager, and even at 62 an aspiring consultant!
Welcome to the forums Railway Andy, I am looking forward to your contributions, especially to this discussion.
As its way passed my bedtime, this post will be brief. The European Union, so far as railways are concerned, is a joke. How Interoperbility, Private Access, Voltage changes etc. works, depends on which Country you are studying. Germany, and Romania ( the last joining the EU on 01-01-2007) have a considerable numberof private freight operators.One of the interesting things about private railfreight is the number of old loco's, which would otherwise have been scrapped. A small firm starting up, obviously wants to keep his capital outlay to a minimum.
But do you think there would be any progress at all without the European Commission pushing?
He has three choices, buy new, lease a modern loco ( Siemens Dispolok seems about the most prominent) or buy an old one and "do it up".With a new multi - voltage loco, a reasonable price tag is about $3 million, renting one about 10% per annum.However buying a second hand one, can be very cheap, your biggest expense getting all the permissions to run on the Network.As an example a sound, well maintained 15kv Austrian Co-Co electric was sold by the State Railway for about $20,000! The only condition was that it could not work on Austrian railfreight.
A couple of points here, are you aware that within the last month Siemens is selling Dispolok to Mitsui Rail Capital Europe (MRCE) subject to regulatory approval? I think that Siemens found out it is best not to compete with your customers, Bombardier also had a locomotive leasing company for a couple of years called "Lokpool". Notice that the other leasing companies Angel Trains, CB Rail, Mitsui (MRCE) weren't buying Siemens locomotives. BTW - the Austrian locomotives Class 1042/1142 were Bo-Bo.
The nonsense over the various electric supplies, is mainly historical. Without giving a full list, below is just a few examples: Holland 1.5k DC. Belgium, Italy, Poland 3.0k DC. France both 25kv AC and 1.5k DC Germany, Austria, Switzerland 15kv AC. Hungary, UK, and most new lines, and all new High speed lines, are 25kv, the simplest and compatable to national power grids Building a multi voltage loco is now almost the same as a single voltage, the Austrian 25/15kv AC class 1116, was about 10% more expensive than the single 15kv 1016 of the same design.One service to benefit was the Vienna -Budapest. Where previously, the Austrian loco had to be changed for a Hungarian one, the change point and national boundary being only a few miles east of Vienna, with a 1116, the regular service ( about hourly) the loco runs right through.
Yes, Multi-Voltage is now the standard, Multi-System (AC/DC) are still a more expensive option, I don't think the MS type will become the Universal choice with the growing network of Freight lines being equipped with 25kV. Bigger problems are the various safety systems, Signum, Integra,LZB,SCMT, TVM, etc. The rollout of ETCS, is going to be critical. I think we are going to see a narrow window of opportunity to get the system deployed over critical mainlines before the European Governments are forced to divert expenditures away from Rail Infrastructure to pressing Social Needs. Already most EU countries are cutting back on subsidies for railfreight. And funding for major projects are disappearing. The Brenner Base Tunnel and others are at risk.
I'm afraid I've only scratched the surface of this fascinating subject. Different voltages are only one problem. France, though a founder state in the EU, takes the attitude "if it ain't built here it can't run". The "roadrailer" which is used extensively in the US has mainly only operated in Germany and Italy.The French SNCF have had one for over ten years, and as the editor of one magazine says, they only keep testing it, until it derails, when they can say its unsafe! I hope to post again in a few days, but if anyone would like to respond, on whether I am providing useful information or otherwise, please do so. One day it is my hope to write a book on European railways, as well as my consutancy, but increasing senility will probably stop ambition. The magazine I referred to is "Todays Railways Europe". there is also a TR for the UK Take care all Railway Andy Back in the 50's and60's multi voltage machines were expensive, complex, and thus more to go wrong. Finally for tonight
Looking forward to carrying on this discussion, what part of the British Railways did you work in.
John Beaulieu
John
Hi. To answer the last question first. My last post was as Surveyor General, with the British Rail Propery Board, and my principal function was to work with the mainstream railway on selecting, designing, obtaining planning permission,for railfreight terminals and dealing with the complexities of rail connection to the site, as well as road access.So I qualified as a Chartered Surveyo rin 1970, and in 1981 qualified as a Chartered Member of the Institute of Logistics and Transport. Before ill health intervened, I had applied for the job of Regional Freight Manager, on the old Eastern Region at York.
All this sounds rather pompous, but not intended. Somehow I could never understand, those who were seeking promotion by always applying for new job all over the Country. However each to his own.Enjoying my work was far more important to me. Indeed I probably inherited this from my late father. He had a childhood ambition to be the man who maintained the WCML over Shap. He achieved this, and got the Settle Carlisle as well.As a teenager I went out on site with him a lot, on one memorable Sunday I ended up driving the steam engine,as they slowly structure gauged from bridge to bridge.Before drinking on duty was taken seriously,we had stopped for luch, and the fireman came back pissed out of his brains. The driver asked if I could drive, and he would fire, as at 16 I was an obvious weakling!
I know that OeBB (the e raplacing the umlaut,hiding in the bowels of this PC) class 1042/1142 are Bo-Bo's. The loco's concerned were 1010 or 1110's built between 1955 and 1958, but still sound. I may be wrong but a lot of the modern systems, needed for operation today were fitted to some.
As you probably know in the States, railways/railroads are not run for benefit of the passenger or freight customer.In the UK at least, it is far more important to keep all the paper work in order. I'm a mild mannered guy, but I went purple with rage when a new company was formed to run just one Intermodal return trip a day. The firm folded, but not before the Dept.of Transport, the Stategic Rail Authority, ( now disbanded)the Rail Regulater, and the Health & Safety Executive had extracted in total £500,000 for the grant of an operating licence.
This post seems short on detail, and I will try to be more expansive next time.Going back to the Austrian Loco's, there was a good article in "Todays Railways" on the present and future of OeBB motive power. At the moment it is lost. There is a good web site on Interoperability. I will find it, and let you have it.
Finally, there is very strong pressure on the EU. As you are no dobt aware,the Germans have a substantial representaion in the Reichtag.The building of DB's High Speed Lines, took far longer to build than the French.To be fair they did intend the lines to be used by night freight. A last little gem - When they built/upgraded the Berlin - Hannover line, it cost them millions of Euro's to build a tunnel, deep cuttings, "false embankments" because of the nerby, albeit rare bird,the Great Bustard.To this day the ICE's have to drop speed from 250kph to 200kph when passing through the Bustard zone!
I will break copyright and let you have a copy of both articles.Indeed it may help the editor David Haydock and his team forsome of you to subscribe to Todays Railways, as I intend to subscribe to "Trains".
All the Best,
Andy
railwayandy wrote:John Hi. To answer the last question first. My last post was as Surveyor General, with the British Rail Propery Board, and my principal function was to work with the mainstream railway on selecting, designing, obtaining planning permission,for railfreight terminals and dealing with the complexities of rail connection to the site, as well as road access.So I qualified as a Chartered Surveyo rin 1970, and in 1981 qualified as a Chartered Member of the Institute of Logistics and Transport. Before ill health intervened, I had applied for the job of Regional Freight Manager, on the old Eastern Region at York.
It seems that in recent years all the good sites for Railfreight in the London area are disappearing forever. Most of the currently operating sites are bound up with no room for expansion. What is the situation with the Cricklewood site? It is probably the last goodsized site reasonably close to London.
Regarding the Surveyor position, you would probably get along well with a gentleman on here who goes by the moniker of "mudchicken" he also is a surveyor and railway civil engineer.
All this sounds rather pompous, but not intended. Somehow I could never understand, those who were seeking promotion by always applying for new job all over the Country. However each to his own. Enjoying my work was far more important to me. Indeed I probably inherited this from my late father. He had a childhood ambition to be the man who maintained the WCML over Shap. He achieved this, and got the Settle Carlisle as well.As a teenager I went out on site with him a lot, on one memorable Sunday I ended up driving the steam engine,as they slowly structure gauged from bridge to bridge.Before drinking on duty was taken seriously,we had stopped for luch, and the fireman came back pissed out of his brains. The driver asked if I could drive, and he would fire, as at 16 I was an obvious weakling! I know that OeBB (the e raplacing the umlaut,hiding in the bowels of this PC) class 1042/1142 are Bo-Bo's. The loco's concerned were 1010 or 1110's built between 1955 and 1958, but still sound. I may be wrong but a lot of the modern systems, needed for operation today were fitted to some.
All this sounds rather pompous, but not intended. Somehow I could never understand, those who were seeking promotion by always applying for new job all over the Country. However each to his own. Enjoying my work was far more important to me. Indeed I probably inherited this from my late father. He had a childhood ambition to be the man who maintained the WCML over Shap. He achieved this, and got the Settle Carlisle as well.As a teenager I went out on site with him a lot, on one memorable Sunday I ended up driving the steam engine,as they slowly structure gauged from bridge to bridge.Before drinking on duty was taken seriously,we had stopped for luch, and the fireman came back pissed out of his brains. The driver asked if I could drive, and he would fire, as at 16 I was an obvious weakling!
Hmm, the Platform 5 roster book German Railways Part 2, Private Railways and Museums, shows that 3 Austrian Class 1020s are registered in Germany but no 1010s or 1110s. Of course the 1020s were built just before or during WW2 as German Class E94s later Baureihe 194s, and just stayed in Austria when the Anschluss was undone.
I am not sure that I agree with you here, The company being formed to operate just one return working per day doesn't sound necessarily bad to me, if they can justify it economically or at least environmentally. The fact that the firm folded apparently fairly quickly suggests that they were undercapitalized and had a poor business plan. And I don't see the 500,000 GBP license fee as being excessive, not that the ORR has costs that high, but rather it will discourge companies that have no business trying to operate a railfreight company from even starting.
I am a subscriber to Today's Railways Europe, indeed today I just wrote a e-mail to David Haydock the editor concerning some inaccuracies in an article in the current issue. I received a prompt response thanking me for writing him. I have been a subscriber for a little over two years, but I don't remember the story about OeBB locomotives.
Finally, there is very strong pressure on the EU. As you are no doubt aware,the Germans have a substantial representaion in the Reichtag.The building of DB's High Speed Lines, took far longer to build than the French.To be fair they did intend the lines to be used by night freight. A last little gem - When they built/upgraded the Berlin - Hannover line, it cost them millions of Euro's to build a tunnel, deep cuttings, "false embankments" because of the nerby, albeit rare bird,the Great Bustard.To this day the ICE's have to drop speed from 250kph to 200kph when passing through the Bustard zone!
The DB are fighting over the Nuremburg - Erfurt highspeed line right now, there is strong opposition to building the line through the Thuringerwald (Thuringia Forest). This is the middle section of the eventual Munich to Berlin high-speed line.
Its not necessary for me, but a citation of the issue that the article appears in would help me obtain a copy of the back issue.
All the Best, Andy
Hi John
So far have not found the web site on European Railway Interoperability.
Having scanned and filed the article on OBB traction, I'm damned if I can find how you attach items.
All I can think of is to send it via Outlook Express, but I don't have your e-mail address.
So if you know how to send attachments, or are willing to let me have your e-mail address, fine.
I've a feeling that I may be asking you to do something against the rules,as I am a member of a UK forum called "Freightmaster Online ",and that can be a bit agressive about what you can do
So, I'll keep hunting for the Interoperability site, and no doubt will be hearing from you.
Regards.
Andy.
railwayandy wrote:Hi John So far have not found the web site on European Railway Interoperability. Having scanned and filed the article on OBB traction, I'm damned if I can find how you attach items.
It is not possible to attach files to forum messages. However, look at the bottom of any post, you will see 2 icons or buttons, the first allows you to send the person an e-mail (it doesn't give you his e-mail address though). The second button allows you to send a private message or "pm". This can only be seen by the person it is addressed to, and the forum moderators. I will send you an e-mail with my e-mail address, just put OBB Locomotives for a subject line.
Look at my previous forum message, notice that the last two words "Trainspotting Bükkes" are blue. This means that they are a hypertext link, put your mouse pointer over them and click the left mouse button and you will be taken to the website of the same name. I think it might be the website you are thinking of. In any case there is information about interoperability on the website.
All I can think of is to send it via Outlook Express, but I don't have your e-mail address. So if you know how to send attachments, or are willing to let me have your e-mail address, fine. I've a feeling that I may be asking you to do something against the rules,as I am a member of a UK forum called "Freightmaster Online ",and that can be a bit agressive about what you can do So, I'll keep hunting for the Interoperability site, and no doubt will be hearing from you. Regards. Andy.
Saw something different this morning in Dordrecht (which is south of Rotterdam on the lines to Germany and Belgium and thus sees a lot of freight traffic).
Usually at 7.14 AM there is a freight train with destination Roosendaal / Belgium passing southbound doing more than 80 kph and slowing down for the switches and curve that has a speed limit of 80 kph.
This morning it was 3 class 6400's with 38 6 axle ore cars and a special car at each and with normal screw couplings on one end and automatic ones toward the ore cars. Total weight around 5200 tons metric, making it one of the heavies of our network.
What surprised me was this. South of the harbor is the hump yard Kijfhoek, then comes the short climb to the bridge over the river Dordse Kil (a Rhine branch) between the stations of Zwijndrecht and Dordrecht. Normally trains coming down the bridge have to slow down but the ore train seemed to continue accelerating. Must be steeper than I thought, inside electric passenger trains such grades are hardly noticible anymore.
By the way these trains to Germany have to keep moving, especially during rush hour or the whole timetable comes to a standstill...
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