Bad train pictures

[wabash1]

Nora

To answer your last question first ctc is traffic control all switches and signals are done by the dispatcher in the abs system it is a block system in which traffic is controlled by track warrent athority the dispatcher gives you permission to be on the track by written athourity. and the signals work as follows say you have a trackage listing A - M train 1 originates at "A" and is given a warrent to "K" he takes off and has green signal (clear) train 2 starts 5 min behind him and is given the same warrent he wont be able to leave til he gets a clear signal train 1 has to get his rear by signal "C" in abs the signals indicate that a red means something is in the block ahead of you a yellow means that the block you are entering is clear but the one past that has something in it. in short a clear means for at least to blocks its clear. ( a block is a disignated point defined by either the signals or stations . the signals are usually 2-2 1/2 miles apart. or a runing time of 10 min)

ok now back to the original Ed I agree with you but i have never had a eot stop me because of loss of communication. if we lose communication with the eot we must reduce the speed of the train to 30 mph until we either get communications back or replace the thing or get and and ignore it.. But the only things you left out ( and i think this is fra rules not just ns ) is requirments of a EOT the train tonnage has to be 4500 tons or a grade of 2% ( this is not percises but close ) or both. if the red flashing light and or EOT fails there is a built in reflector that signals the rear of train and this surfices for the red flashing light til you get to the next terminal or crew change point for repair. what is on the screen for us to know what is going on back there. The EOT tells us what the air pressure is at rear of train. in some cases this is how we know if we go into emergency from a busted air hose toward the rear. that will go to zero with a beep to alert you before you lose air pressure on the head end. sometimes the only warning you get so you can handle your train accordingly. it tells you if the rear is moving or stopped and if the light is on ( flashing ) or off. these are just things that ED didnt finish . And mainly applies to road trains if in terminal it is considered a cut of cars and no EOT is needed. A local working daylight hours only needs a flag.

[wabash1]

Nora

To answer your last question first ctc is traffic control all switches and signals are done by the dispatcher in the abs system it is a block system in which traffic is controlled by track warrent athority the dispatcher gives you permission to be on the track by written athourity. and the signals work as follows say you have a trackage listing A - M train 1 originates at "A" and is given a warrent to "K" he takes off and has green signal (clear) train 2 starts 5 min behind him and is given the same warrent he wont be able to leave til he gets a clear signal train 1 has to get his rear by signal "C" in abs the signals indicate that a red means something is in the block ahead of you a yellow means that the block you are entering is clear but the one past that has something in it. in short a clear means for at least to blocks its clear. ( a block is a disignated point defined by either the signals or stations . the signals are usually 2-2 1/2 miles apart. or a runing time of 10 min)

ok now back to the original Ed I agree with you but i have never had a eot stop me because of loss of communication. if we lose communication with the eot we must reduce the speed of the train to 30 mph until we either get communications back or replace the thing or get and and ignore it.. But the only things you left out ( and i think this is fra rules not just ns ) is requirments of a EOT the train tonnage has to be 4500 tons or a grade of 2% ( this is not percises but close ) or both. if the red flashing light and or EOT fails there is a built in reflector that signals the rear of train and this surfices for the red flashing light til you get to the next terminal or crew change point for repair. what is on the screen for us to know what is going on back there. The EOT tells us what the air pressure is at rear of train. in some cases this is how we know if we go into emergency from a busted air hose toward the rear. that will go to zero with a beep to alert you before you lose air pressure on the head end. sometimes the only warning you get so you can handle your train accordingly. it tells you if the rear is moving or stopped and if the light is on ( flashing ) or off. these are just things that ED didnt finish . And mainly applies to road trains if in terminal it is considered a cut of cars and no EOT is needed. A local working daylight hours only needs a flag.

[Nora]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Hi Nora,
the Fred, (flashing rear end device), or Eot,(end of train) is a flashing marker on the rear of any train operating within CTC trackage.

...

Within CTC and ABS, markers, highly visible or otherwise, are required at all times.

...

Any help?

Well, yes, but of course now I need to know what CTC and ABS are. [:)]

--Nora

[Nora]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Hi Nora,
the Fred, (flashing rear end device), or Eot,(end of train) is a flashing marker on the rear of any train operating within CTC trackage.

...

Within CTC and ABS, markers, highly visible or otherwise, are required at all times.

...

Any help?

Well, yes, but of course now I need to know what CTC and ABS are. [:)]

--Nora

[edblysard]

Hi Nora,
the Fred, (flashing rear end device), or Eot,(end of train) is a flashing marker on the rear of any train operating within CTC trackage.

Description of use is found in the GCOR, section 5.10.1: Highly Visible Markers.
The rule states

Display a highly visible marker at the rear of every train as follows:

From 1 hour before sunset to 1 hour after sunrise.
When weather conditions restrict visibility to less than 1/2 mile.

And Rule 5.10.2

Alternative markers

Display a red flag or light fixture at the rear of the train as the marker when any of the following conditions exsist.

A highly visible marker is not required.

A defective car must be placed at the rear of the train for movement to a repair point.

The rear portion of the train is disabled and cannot be moved, and a highly visible marker cannot be displayed on the rear portion

OR

The highly visible marker becomes disabled enrout.

Translation as follows.

In daylight, flashing markers are not required outside of CTC and ABS territory until after dark.

A red flag is commonly used, in yard to yard transfer service under 20 miles in daylight, and not in yards at all the time.

The reason you see flashing markers on trains is because its easier to install one on a train that will travel several hundres miles, because you cant guarantee it will get where its going while its still daylight, or it may take several days to reach its destination, and you dont want to have to keep stoping to install one after dark, its easier to just put it on at the get go and leave it there.

Within CTC and ABS, markers, highly visible or otherwise, are required at all times.

Most short lines, belt roads, terminal and switching roads dont use Flashing rear end devices, we just use flags.

On the PTRA, because all of our tracks are considered within yard limits, and we operate under RTC,(radio traffic control, or "dark territory") we dont even use flags, unless we are going to the UP yard to pick up or drop off a train.

Most EOT or FREDS talk to the engineer, via radio signals, telling him the brake pipe pressure at the rear of the train, for brake test and such, and all are now required to be able to perform a emergency brake application when it receives a signal from the cab (engineer) to do so.

The engineer has a switch he can throw that will tell the fred to plug the train, in case his brakes fail to respond to the movements of the control surfaces on the control stand.
The fred also checks that it can talk to the cab every few seconds, and if comunications fail twice within 45 seconds, it will slowly apply the train brakes till the train stops, and will not allow the brakes to be released until someone goes to the rear and resets it manually, so they have to check the train as they go.

Freds and EOTs are what replaced the caboose on long haul trains, you dont need a rear brakeman now, the Fred can do his job, and the conductor rides up front now.

Bet what you saw was a work train, a ballest train taking rock to a repair site or where they are laying new rail, and work trains only operate in daylight, so it dosnt need a flashing rear end device, just the red flag under the rules.
Any help?
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nora

When does a train have to have one of those electronic flashing whatchamacallits on the end of the train, and when does it not? I assumed they always had to have one because just about every train I've seen has had one unless it was in the yard or something. Yesterday I saw a train that just had an orange flag stuck in the coupler on the back. It was a very short train , maybe 10 cars long, and the cars were low so I thought maybe it didn't need one since they could see all the way to the end of the train. Is that it?

--Nora

[edblysard]

Hi Nora,
the Fred, (flashing rear end device), or Eot,(end of train) is a flashing marker on the rear of any train operating within CTC trackage.

Description of use is found in the GCOR, section 5.10.1: Highly Visible Markers.
The rule states

Display a highly visible marker at the rear of every train as follows:

From 1 hour before sunset to 1 hour after sunrise.
When weather conditions restrict visibility to less than 1/2 mile.

And Rule 5.10.2

Alternative markers

Display a red flag or light fixture at the rear of the train as the marker when any of the following conditions exsist.

A highly visible marker is not required.

A defective car must be placed at the rear of the train for movement to a repair point.

The rear portion of the train is disabled and cannot be moved, and a highly visible marker cannot be displayed on the rear portion

OR

The highly visible marker becomes disabled enrout.

Translation as follows.

In daylight, flashing markers are not required outside of CTC and ABS territory until after dark.

A red flag is commonly used, in yard to yard transfer service under 20 miles in daylight, and not in yards at all the time.

The reason you see flashing markers on trains is because its easier to install one on a train that will travel several hundres miles, because you cant guarantee it will get where its going while its still daylight, or it may take several days to reach its destination, and you dont want to have to keep stoping to install one after dark, its easier to just put it on at the get go and leave it there.

Within CTC and ABS, markers, highly visible or otherwise, are required at all times.

Most short lines, belt roads, terminal and switching roads dont use Flashing rear end devices, we just use flags.

On the PTRA, because all of our tracks are considered within yard limits, and we operate under RTC,(radio traffic control, or "dark territory") we dont even use flags, unless we are going to the UP yard to pick up or drop off a train.

Most EOT or FREDS talk to the engineer, via radio signals, telling him the brake pipe pressure at the rear of the train, for brake test and such, and all are now required to be able to perform a emergency brake application when it receives a signal from the cab (engineer) to do so.

The engineer has a switch he can throw that will tell the fred to plug the train, in case his brakes fail to respond to the movements of the control surfaces on the control stand.
The fred also checks that it can talk to the cab every few seconds, and if comunications fail twice within 45 seconds, it will slowly apply the train brakes till the train stops, and will not allow the brakes to be released until someone goes to the rear and resets it manually, so they have to check the train as they go.

Freds and EOTs are what replaced the caboose on long haul trains, you dont need a rear brakeman now, the Fred can do his job, and the conductor rides up front now.

Bet what you saw was a work train, a ballest train taking rock to a repair site or where they are laying new rail, and work trains only operate in daylight, so it dosnt need a flashing rear end device, just the red flag under the rules.
Any help?
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nora

When does a train have to have one of those electronic flashing whatchamacallits on the end of the train, and when does it not? I assumed they always had to have one because just about every train I've seen has had one unless it was in the yard or something. Yesterday I saw a train that just had an orange flag stuck in the coupler on the back. It was a very short train , maybe 10 cars long, and the cars were low so I thought maybe it didn't need one since they could see all the way to the end of the train. Is that it?

--Nora

[edblysard]

Gee, I'm touched, your looking out for me!
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

where did you leave the mirror?)
--------------------

In the name of saftey so you wouldnt stick your head out the window to look at yourself and knock heads with another conductor passing the other direction doing the same thing. its in the conductors office under the lid. with a UTU sticker on it.

[edblysard]

Gee, I'm touched, your looking out for me!
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

where did you leave the mirror?)
--------------------

In the name of saftey so you wouldnt stick your head out the window to look at yourself and knock heads with another conductor passing the other direction doing the same thing. its in the conductors office under the lid. with a UTU sticker on it.

[Nora]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken


There has to be a red flag (at minimum) protecting the train during daylight hours and from an hour before dusk to an hour after dawn, a red light must be displayed.

...

Sounds like you saw a roadswitcher making a move to set out another car or pick one up before traveling a longer distance in some kind of absolute block....I'm sure Ed, Ken , Wabash, LC & Co will add to this (I'm normally trying to avoid them, I want all those visual cues- the more the better)

Well, I don't think that's quite what it was doing. I think it might've been a work train of some type; the cars appeared to be carrying ballast and there is work going on everywhere around here lately. It was shorter and the cars were a different type then the ballast train I usually see, though. I saw it just leaving the yard around late morning and then, in the evening, I saw the same train coming back past my house towards the yard (10 or so miles away). I guess they were being a little naughty because it was edging towards being pitch black, and there was still no light!

Thanks for the answer.

--Nora

[Nora]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken


There has to be a red flag (at minimum) protecting the train during daylight hours and from an hour before dusk to an hour after dawn, a red light must be displayed.

...

Sounds like you saw a roadswitcher making a move to set out another car or pick one up before traveling a longer distance in some kind of absolute block....I'm sure Ed, Ken , Wabash, LC & Co will add to this (I'm normally trying to avoid them, I want all those visual cues- the more the better)

Well, I don't think that's quite what it was doing. I think it might've been a work train of some type; the cars appeared to be carrying ballast and there is work going on everywhere around here lately. It was shorter and the cars were a different type then the ballast train I usually see, though. I saw it just leaving the yard around late morning and then, in the evening, I saw the same train coming back past my house towards the yard (10 or so miles away). I guess they were being a little naughty because it was edging towards being pitch black, and there was still no light!

Thanks for the answer.

--Nora

[mudchicken]

NORA:

The flashing watchamacallit is an "end of train device" (a FRED, F______G Rear End Device, slang & excuse me very much). They have an air line pressure gauge and a red lamp designating end-of-train. FREDS can be passive/dumb or smart (a radio telemetry device). There has to be a red flag (at minimum) protecting the train during daylight hours and from an hour before dusk to an hour after dawn, a red light must be displayed. You want a telemetry device to be talking to the locomotive during an air test, otherwise its a long walk back there or a convoluted move to get somebody to read the gauge on a dumb FRED. Railroad operating rules and federal rule 49CFR218.37,49CFR218.5 and 49CFR221.13 (Sub-Par B "Marking Devices" say that stuff must be on the end of a "train". Marker of Red/Orange color ...Flashing light must be seen from 1/2 mile away on tangent by a person with 20/20 corrected vision and able to make out the silouette of a boxcar....no flag or marker for a railroad who operates ONLY one train at a time.

Sounds like you saw a roadswitcher making a move to set out another car or pick one up before traveling a longer distance in some kind of absolute block....I'm sure Ed, Ken , Wabash, LC & Co will add to this (I'm normally trying to avoid them, I want all those visual cues- the more the better)

Mudchicken

[mudchicken]

NORA:

The flashing watchamacallit is an "end of train device" (a FRED, F______G Rear End Device, slang & excuse me very much). They have an air line pressure gauge and a red lamp designating end-of-train. FREDS can be passive/dumb or smart (a radio telemetry device). There has to be a red flag (at minimum) protecting the train during daylight hours and from an hour before dusk to an hour after dawn, a red light must be displayed. You want a telemetry device to be talking to the locomotive during an air test, otherwise its a long walk back there or a convoluted move to get somebody to read the gauge on a dumb FRED. Railroad operating rules and federal rule 49CFR218.37,49CFR218.5 and 49CFR221.13 (Sub-Par B "Marking Devices" say that stuff must be on the end of a "train". Marker of Red/Orange color ...Flashing light must be seen from 1/2 mile away on tangent by a person with 20/20 corrected vision and able to make out the silouette of a boxcar....no flag or marker for a railroad who operates ONLY one train at a time.

Sounds like you saw a roadswitcher making a move to set out another car or pick one up before traveling a longer distance in some kind of absolute block....I'm sure Ed, Ken , Wabash, LC & Co will add to this (I'm normally trying to avoid them, I want all those visual cues- the more the better)

Mudchicken

[Nora]

When does a train have to have one of those electronic flashing whatchamacallits on the end of the train, and when does it not? I assumed they always had to have one because just about every train I've seen has had one unless it was in the yard or something. Yesterday I saw a train that just had an orange flag stuck in the coupler on the back. It was a very short train , maybe 10 cars long, and the cars were low so I thought maybe it didn't need one since they could see all the way to the end of the train. Is that it?

--Nora

[Nora]

When does a train have to have one of those electronic flashing whatchamacallits on the end of the train, and when does it not? I assumed they always had to have one because just about every train I've seen has had one unless it was in the yard or something. Yesterday I saw a train that just had an orange flag stuck in the coupler on the back. It was a very short train , maybe 10 cars long, and the cars were low so I thought maybe it didn't need one since they could see all the way to the end of the train. Is that it?

--Nora

[Anonymous]

I can't believe how a simple little question asked by Nora has grown into such fascinating reading. This is the beauty of these forums, they are not only informative reading, but entertaining as well.

[Anonymous]

I can't believe how a simple little question asked by Nora has grown into such fascinating reading. This is the beauty of these forums, they are not only informative reading, but entertaining as well.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Coils in a gondola might be due to unavailability of regular coil cars. It does happen occasionally with the coils loaded close to the end of the car over the truck bolsters. The earliest coil cars were gondolas with sheet metal hoods over the loads. The hoods were not attached to specific cars and it was not unusual to see a C&O gondola with hoods from DT&I and EJ&E or some other mismatch.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Coils in a gondola might be due to unavailability of regular coil cars. It does happen occasionally with the coils loaded close to the end of the car over the truck bolsters. The earliest coil cars were gondolas with sheet metal hoods over the loads. The hoods were not attached to specific cars and it was not unusual to see a C&O gondola with hoods from DT&I and EJ&E or some other mismatch.

[techguy57]

Got stopped the other night by a EJ&E train which was carrying 2 open gondolas with coil loads. Any idea why these weren't in a coil car, and is this unusual (I'd not see this before)

Also thanks to mudchicken for the info!

Mike

[techguy57]

Got stopped the other night by a EJ&E train which was carrying 2 open gondolas with coil loads. Any idea why these weren't in a coil car, and is this unusual (I'd not see this before)

Also thanks to mudchicken for the info!

Mike

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Because of mergers, some roads had different aspects for the same meaning. I have an old Penn Central Rules for Conducting Transportation and multiple aspects are shown for the same indication. The differences are often minor (except for PRR position light signals vs NYC color light signals) but they do exist.
There are also specialized signals for certain locations that are stated in the appropriate employee timetables. A good example would be the gyralites at Pullman Junction or the semaphores at Brighton Park.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Because of mergers, some roads had different aspects for the same meaning. I have an old Penn Central Rules for Conducting Transportation and multiple aspects are shown for the same indication. The differences are often minor (except for PRR position light signals vs NYC color light signals) but they do exist.
There are also specialized signals for certain locations that are stated in the appropriate employee timetables. A good example would be the gyralites at Pullman Junction or the semaphores at Brighton Park.

[mudchicken]

Meanings are similar, but different dependent on whose book of rules you are using.
GCOR vs. NCAR (or what ever NS and CR adopted) vs. ????, ......All vary slightly, even the railroads using the same model rules format.....You have to be qualified on that particular railroad's interpretation and use of the rule book.

[mudchicken]

Meanings are similar, but different dependent on whose book of rules you are using.
GCOR vs. NCAR (or what ever NS and CR adopted) vs. ????, ......All vary slightly, even the railroads using the same model rules format.....You have to be qualified on that particular railroad's interpretation and use of the rule book.

[kwboehm]

I have a question that was tripped by something I read in another thread (Chicago derailment). Do signal aspects and meaning really differ as greatly as it sounds from one railroad to the next? (Ex. yellow over yellow means one thing on BNSF but something totally different on NS) Is there not a federal standard as to signal meanings? Or do they actually mean the same thing and I just misread or misinterpreted something?

[kwboehm]

I have a question that was tripped by something I read in another thread (Chicago derailment). Do signal aspects and meaning really differ as greatly as it sounds from one railroad to the next? (Ex. yellow over yellow means one thing on BNSF but something totally different on NS) Is there not a federal standard as to signal meanings? Or do they actually mean the same thing and I just misread or misinterpreted something?

[wabash1]

where did you leave the mirror?)
--------------------

In the name of saftey so you wouldnt stick your head out the window to look at yourself and knock heads with another conductor passing the other direction doing the same thing. its in the conductors office under the lid. with a UTU sticker on it.

[wabash1]

where did you leave the mirror?)
--------------------

In the name of saftey so you wouldnt stick your head out the window to look at yourself and knock heads with another conductor passing the other direction doing the same thing. its in the conductors office under the lid. with a UTU sticker on it.

[edblysard]

True, our car dept's lock take a different key than any other lock.
My switch lock key wont work in it, so I cant accidently unlock a flagged track.
Simple, but effective.
Stay Frosty,
Ed
(where did you leave the mirror?)

[edblysard]

True, our car dept's lock take a different key than any other lock.
My switch lock key wont work in it, so I cant accidently unlock a flagged track.
Simple, but effective.
Stay Frosty,
Ed
(where did you leave the mirror?)