Bad train pictures

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nora

Hey, I have a star!

Yes Nora you have a star. (You always had a "star" in our hearts) [:)]

We must also award a "star" to your Stupid Question Thread it is also a winner. It is alive and well and growing most every day. As I said very early in the thread you did good starting this one.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nora

Hey, I have a star!

Yes Nora you have a star. (You always had a "star" in our hearts) [:)]

We must also award a "star" to your Stupid Question Thread it is also a winner. It is alive and well and growing most every day. As I said very early in the thread you did good starting this one.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nora

Hey, I have a star!

Way to go Nora[:p]
Keep them questions coming in.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Nora

Hey, I have a star!

Way to go Nora[:p]
Keep them questions coming in.

[edblysard]

Hi Nora,
Quinton had it, the tanks have lower centers to facilitate emptying of all the contents.
When tank and hopper cars enter the first yard with a scale track, they are often weighed so the carrier can charge the correct amount.
When the tanks are not empty, the shipper pays for that little extra weight.

Conversley, if the car is loaded, and the shipper wants to make sure they are paying and being charged the correct amount, the cars are weighed then, too.
If the cars are overloaded, the carrier can be fined by the FRA, so overweight cars are returned to the shipper.
They like the tank cars with the low center, as it allows them to completly drain the car.
In a tank car with a completly level bottom, some of the product will always settle in the ends, and if the track where the cars are unloaded is not perfectly level, some of the product will flow to and remain in the low end.
With the funnel center, thats is not a problem any more.
Most of the new tank cars have the dropped or lower center discharge.

Who decides what kind and how many locomotives?
The road foreman of engines decides, but most often, based on the tonnage and terrain, he has a set number of locomotives totaling a set percent of horsepower per ton that he informs the yardmaster of, and the ready track crew.
When the ready track crews assemble locomotive consists, they check the roadforman's list to see what type of locomotives are assigned to what train, and how much horsepower that paticular train needs.
These lists are made up a day or so in advance, based on anticipated departures and power needs.
Most railroads have set minimum HP to tonnage ratings they have to follow, and the conductor is required to make sure the correct amount of power has been assembled before he accepts the train.

If they can, the ready track assemble the consist with a unit facing in opposite directions from each other, noses out, so the crews do not have to turn the consist when they arrive at their destination, just move from one locomotive to the other for the return trip.
If it cant be helped, sometimes it ends up with locomotives facing the "wrong" direction, or rear facing forward, it really donst matter, they run just as well backwards as forewards, it just a matter of crew comfort and visability.

Retarders, not to be confused with retainers.

Retainers are a brake valve that allows the engineer to make a brake application, and then the conductor walks the train, turning a set number of these retainer valves on the cars brake system, so when the engineer releases the brakes, those cars with their retainer valves set do not release their brakes, they "retain" the last brake setting.
This helps with long, steep downhill moves, as it provides a constant amount of braking power in addition to what the engineer applies later.
No matter what else happens, these cars will have their brakes "on".

Retarders are a device that slows cars coming down a hump yard lead.

They are electric or phnumatic and or hydrolic devices that grab the inside of the wheel flange between a friction rail and the stock rail, one on each side, to provide braking.
This is to make sure cars coming down the hump do not exceed the safe coupling speed in the yard.

Several sets of retarders are often placed in a row on the downhill lead track, which allows the hump master to control the speed of the cars very accurately, and often there is another set that protects tracks proper.

These thing are very loud, and make a incredible high pitched squeal when the wheels pass through them.
It can be painful to your ears.

Depending on whos yard it is, coupling speed is most often 4 mph or less, to prevent damage to the cars and their contents.

If several cars are humped in a group, the additional weight and mass will get them going pretty fast, so having several sets of these retarders spaced out in a row allows the cut or group of cars to be slowed down in stages before they get to the coupling.

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi Nora,
Quinton had it, the tanks have lower centers to facilitate emptying of all the contents.
When tank and hopper cars enter the first yard with a scale track, they are often weighed so the carrier can charge the correct amount.
When the tanks are not empty, the shipper pays for that little extra weight.

Conversley, if the car is loaded, and the shipper wants to make sure they are paying and being charged the correct amount, the cars are weighed then, too.
If the cars are overloaded, the carrier can be fined by the FRA, so overweight cars are returned to the shipper.
They like the tank cars with the low center, as it allows them to completly drain the car.
In a tank car with a completly level bottom, some of the product will always settle in the ends, and if the track where the cars are unloaded is not perfectly level, some of the product will flow to and remain in the low end.
With the funnel center, thats is not a problem any more.
Most of the new tank cars have the dropped or lower center discharge.

Who decides what kind and how many locomotives?
The road foreman of engines decides, but most often, based on the tonnage and terrain, he has a set number of locomotives totaling a set percent of horsepower per ton that he informs the yardmaster of, and the ready track crew.
When the ready track crews assemble locomotive consists, they check the roadforman's list to see what type of locomotives are assigned to what train, and how much horsepower that paticular train needs.
These lists are made up a day or so in advance, based on anticipated departures and power needs.
Most railroads have set minimum HP to tonnage ratings they have to follow, and the conductor is required to make sure the correct amount of power has been assembled before he accepts the train.

If they can, the ready track assemble the consist with a unit facing in opposite directions from each other, noses out, so the crews do not have to turn the consist when they arrive at their destination, just move from one locomotive to the other for the return trip.
If it cant be helped, sometimes it ends up with locomotives facing the "wrong" direction, or rear facing forward, it really donst matter, they run just as well backwards as forewards, it just a matter of crew comfort and visability.

Retarders, not to be confused with retainers.

Retainers are a brake valve that allows the engineer to make a brake application, and then the conductor walks the train, turning a set number of these retainer valves on the cars brake system, so when the engineer releases the brakes, those cars with their retainer valves set do not release their brakes, they "retain" the last brake setting.
This helps with long, steep downhill moves, as it provides a constant amount of braking power in addition to what the engineer applies later.
No matter what else happens, these cars will have their brakes "on".

Retarders are a device that slows cars coming down a hump yard lead.

They are electric or phnumatic and or hydrolic devices that grab the inside of the wheel flange between a friction rail and the stock rail, one on each side, to provide braking.
This is to make sure cars coming down the hump do not exceed the safe coupling speed in the yard.

Several sets of retarders are often placed in a row on the downhill lead track, which allows the hump master to control the speed of the cars very accurately, and often there is another set that protects tracks proper.

These thing are very loud, and make a incredible high pitched squeal when the wheels pass through them.
It can be painful to your ears.

Depending on whos yard it is, coupling speed is most often 4 mph or less, to prevent damage to the cars and their contents.

If several cars are humped in a group, the additional weight and mass will get them going pretty fast, so having several sets of these retarders spaced out in a row allows the cut or group of cars to be slowed down in stages before they get to the coupling.

Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Modelcar]

.....I have wondered about the tank cars being lower in the middle just as you Nora...and I recently read it is to enhance the process of draining of the liquid. As for a retarder, it has different meanings for different applications, so I'll let a railroader answer that one.
In general terms a retarder will slow down whatever it is connected to....rotating shaft, axle, vehicle, etc.....But I'm sure you want the answer for one related to the railroad.

[Modelcar]

.....I have wondered about the tank cars being lower in the middle just as you Nora...and I recently read it is to enhance the process of draining of the liquid. As for a retarder, it has different meanings for different applications, so I'll let a railroader answer that one.
In general terms a retarder will slow down whatever it is connected to....rotating shaft, axle, vehicle, etc.....But I'm sure you want the answer for one related to the railroad.

[Nora]

Hey, I have a star!

[Nora]

Hey, I have a star!

[Nora]

I've only been gone a few days now and it already seems like I am never going to get caught up with the forum! It will still be a couple weeks until we have internet access at home; I'm writing this from my parents' place in Ohio.

We got through the first of three moves we will be enduring over the next 6 months or so. (The other two places we're moving to are only about a block away from where we are now, so hopefully those moves will be easier.) There are SO MANY TRAINS going through the town we moved to and I can see them (a bit) from the balcony of the upstairs apartment we're in. We are maybe 80 feet from the tracks (and in the final house we're moving to next spring, we'll even be a little closer), but there are trees and plants blocking MY view. [:)]

I have got a few more STUPID QUESTIONS I'm going to ask. I may not see the answers for a few days or even a couple weeks but the answers will still be here when I get back.

1. Why are some tank cars higher on the ends than in the middle? They kind of dip down in the middle.

2. Who decides, and how is it decided, what engines will be on a train and which one will be in front?

3. What is a retarder?

Thanks and I'll be back as soon as I can!

--Nora

[Nora]

I've only been gone a few days now and it already seems like I am never going to get caught up with the forum! It will still be a couple weeks until we have internet access at home; I'm writing this from my parents' place in Ohio.

We got through the first of three moves we will be enduring over the next 6 months or so. (The other two places we're moving to are only about a block away from where we are now, so hopefully those moves will be easier.) There are SO MANY TRAINS going through the town we moved to and I can see them (a bit) from the balcony of the upstairs apartment we're in. We are maybe 80 feet from the tracks (and in the final house we're moving to next spring, we'll even be a little closer), but there are trees and plants blocking MY view. [:)]

I have got a few more STUPID QUESTIONS I'm going to ask. I may not see the answers for a few days or even a couple weeks but the answers will still be here when I get back.

1. Why are some tank cars higher on the ends than in the middle? They kind of dip down in the middle.

2. Who decides, and how is it decided, what engines will be on a train and which one will be in front?

3. What is a retarder?

Thanks and I'll be back as soon as I can!

--Nora

[Granny74]

Wabash: Thanks for the good answer to my question. I am learning a lot from you all by reading these forums!
Bob from AZ

[Granny74]

Wabash: Thanks for the good answer to my question. I am learning a lot from you all by reading these forums!
Bob from AZ

[Modelcar]

....How steep was the grade and how long was the stretch of track you were decending and had to think about whether you were going to make it around that curve...? Or maybe jump before you got there....

[Modelcar]

....How steep was the grade and how long was the stretch of track you were decending and had to think about whether you were going to make it around that curve...? Or maybe jump before you got there....

[zardoz]

Mookie - JUMP and PRAY (if one is so inclined), not neccessarily in that order.

Actually, it depends on whats ahead. When that happened to me, the terrain was such that at the bottom of the hill was a severe curve that had a 25mph speed restriction due to curvature (I do not remember the degree). To make it worse, at the beginning of the curve there was a facing-point switch!

Fortunately, when that happened to me (no air exhaust when appling brakes), there was sufficient leakage in the trainline that we did slow enough to stay on the rail (although we did exceed the 25mph by more mph than I care to remember). If it wasn't for the dynamic brakes on the units (fortunately we had 3 working), our train would have been scrap at the bottom of the hill, and I would be playing the harp (or shoveling coal). There was a (seemingly long) period where the brakeman & I were discussing the "advantages" of jumping.

The other situation I mentioned (ice in the train line, (as well as vandalism)) has been somewhat resolved due to the governments requirement that trains be equipped with a FRED that can be activated from the locomotive to put the brakes in emergency.

[zardoz]

Mookie - JUMP and PRAY (if one is so inclined), not neccessarily in that order.

Actually, it depends on whats ahead. When that happened to me, the terrain was such that at the bottom of the hill was a severe curve that had a 25mph speed restriction due to curvature (I do not remember the degree). To make it worse, at the beginning of the curve there was a facing-point switch!

Fortunately, when that happened to me (no air exhaust when appling brakes), there was sufficient leakage in the trainline that we did slow enough to stay on the rail (although we did exceed the 25mph by more mph than I care to remember). If it wasn't for the dynamic brakes on the units (fortunately we had 3 working), our train would have been scrap at the bottom of the hill, and I would be playing the harp (or shoveling coal). There was a (seemingly long) period where the brakeman & I were discussing the "advantages" of jumping.

The other situation I mentioned (ice in the train line, (as well as vandalism)) has been somewhat resolved due to the governments requirement that trains be equipped with a FRED that can be activated from the locomotive to put the brakes in emergency.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by Puckdropper

What they're doing is stopping all momentum. It's much harder to start moving with out momentum, and takes a little longer to build it up. It's also a good thing in that they'll know the brakes work.

Yes, good idea to check the brakes. In some territories, depending on the terrain, a train might not use the air brakes for many miles, possibly even the entire trip if the units have good dynamic brakes and the engineer is good enough. So as a means of checking that the brakes still work (especially important in winter when train-lines can freeze), a controlled stop on the top of a grade will help assure that the brakes will work. There are few worse feelings than the one you get when starting down a 1.75% grade, set the brakes to first service, hear no air exhausting, set full service, hear a little hiss (like Mookie), all the while the train speed is increasing. As the phrase goes, it makes your a**hole pucker.

Because when you start down a steep hill, there is a speed (different for each train depending on tonnage and grade) at which the brakes will no longer be effective, even in emergency. What happens is there is so much momentum, that when the brakes are applied, in an effort to slow the train, all they do is produce heat, not braking. And all that heat builds until the brake shoe will actually start melting, and the melting steel acts as a lubricant, preventing further braking. That is one method for creating a runaway.

So go a step further and tell us what you do when you get into this situation and you do have a runaway? You can't apply the brakes because you are going too fast so what steps will you take besides hang on tight?

Mookie

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

QUOTE: Originally posted by Puckdropper

What they're doing is stopping all momentum. It's much harder to start moving with out momentum, and takes a little longer to build it up. It's also a good thing in that they'll know the brakes work.

Yes, good idea to check the brakes. In some territories, depending on the terrain, a train might not use the air brakes for many miles, possibly even the entire trip if the units have good dynamic brakes and the engineer is good enough. So as a means of checking that the brakes still work (especially important in winter when train-lines can freeze), a controlled stop on the top of a grade will help assure that the brakes will work. There are few worse feelings than the one you get when starting down a 1.75% grade, set the brakes to first service, hear no air exhausting, set full service, hear a little hiss (like Mookie), all the while the train speed is increasing. As the phrase goes, it makes your a**hole pucker.

Because when you start down a steep hill, there is a speed (different for each train depending on tonnage and grade) at which the brakes will no longer be effective, even in emergency. What happens is there is so much momentum, that when the brakes are applied, in an effort to slow the train, all they do is produce heat, not braking. And all that heat builds until the brake shoe will actually start melting, and the melting steel acts as a lubricant, preventing further braking. That is one method for creating a runaway.

So go a step further and tell us what you do when you get into this situation and you do have a runaway? You can't apply the brakes because you are going too fast so what steps will you take besides hang on tight?

Mookie

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Years ago there used to be electric horns mounted on poles just as the grade started down and if the trains speed exceeded the regulated speed at that point the horns started to sound to warn the crew to get their train under control now...

Do modern locomotives have anyhthing like that now? I have noticed on the highways that some of the semis have equipment that links with the weigh stations and they get a signal in the cab if they have to stop at the weigh station or can proceed. Is there a speed detector on grades that alerts the crew that they are going too fast?

A related question I guess:
Didn't the ATS system also stop the train automatically if it crossed a red and the crew didn't react?

dharmon -
The ATS system consists of a trackside inducer and a locomotive-mounted reciever. If the signal aspect is anything except 'clear', the inducer becomes charged. When a receiver passes over the inducer, the operator is required to acknowledge the signal by pushing a special button in the cab. Failure to do so would result in a "penalty brake application" activated automatically. The penalty application is a full-service brake-pipe reduction, NOT an emergency application. In order to prevent lazy engineers from managing to keep the button pushed constantly (thereby defeating the safety aspect), the system allows the button to be pushed for only about 10-15 seconds. If the button is held too long, a penalty application also occurs. There is also a time-delay in the system (usually about one minute) before the system can be reset; that prevents the air from being recovered too soon, thereby insuring that the train comes to a complete stop.

ATC works somewhat similar in regards to the air application, but uses no trackside induction system; it works through the rails and is picked up by recievers in front of the lead axle of the loco, under the pilot. I never worked with ATC, so I do not know many of the particulars.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Years ago there used to be electric horns mounted on poles just as the grade started down and if the trains speed exceeded the regulated speed at that point the horns started to sound to warn the crew to get their train under control now...

Do modern locomotives have anyhthing like that now? I have noticed on the highways that some of the semis have equipment that links with the weigh stations and they get a signal in the cab if they have to stop at the weigh station or can proceed. Is there a speed detector on grades that alerts the crew that they are going too fast?

A related question I guess:
Didn't the ATS system also stop the train automatically if it crossed a red and the crew didn't react?

dharmon -
The ATS system consists of a trackside inducer and a locomotive-mounted reciever. If the signal aspect is anything except 'clear', the inducer becomes charged. When a receiver passes over the inducer, the operator is required to acknowledge the signal by pushing a special button in the cab. Failure to do so would result in a "penalty brake application" activated automatically. The penalty application is a full-service brake-pipe reduction, NOT an emergency application. In order to prevent lazy engineers from managing to keep the button pushed constantly (thereby defeating the safety aspect), the system allows the button to be pushed for only about 10-15 seconds. If the button is held too long, a penalty application also occurs. There is also a time-delay in the system (usually about one minute) before the system can be reset; that prevents the air from being recovered too soon, thereby insuring that the train comes to a complete stop.

ATC works somewhat similar in regards to the air application, but uses no trackside induction system; it works through the rails and is picked up by recievers in front of the lead axle of the loco, under the pilot. I never worked with ATC, so I do not know many of the particulars.

[wabash1]

Not sure what you are asking . but if i am in rolling terrain i try and keep the train streched by pulling on them the worse thing you can do is have the slack going in and out through out your train. when all the train is going down hill i am in dynamic and the train is up against the engines controlling the speed with dynamic. with a stack train there is little slack action to feel and a stack train even though you can do it getting a knucle is hard, a regular freight train is easier to get a knucle your train is differant weights and differant cars. and like somebody said in the post earlier i have never had a brake pipe freeze. but have had snow and ice build up on shoes it takes a mile to get the shoes cleared maybe more and when traveling in snow i will apply brakes going up hill and leave them on till they are free of ice. I hope this answers your question

[wabash1]

Not sure what you are asking . but if i am in rolling terrain i try and keep the train streched by pulling on them the worse thing you can do is have the slack going in and out through out your train. when all the train is going down hill i am in dynamic and the train is up against the engines controlling the speed with dynamic. with a stack train there is little slack action to feel and a stack train even though you can do it getting a knucle is hard, a regular freight train is easier to get a knucle your train is differant weights and differant cars. and like somebody said in the post earlier i have never had a brake pipe freeze. but have had snow and ice build up on shoes it takes a mile to get the shoes cleared maybe more and when traveling in snow i will apply brakes going up hill and leave them on till they are free of ice. I hope this answers your question

[Granny74]

Wabash: When you are in rolling hills, do you get a feeling of the cars coming against the locomotive in a long train such as a double stack container train?
Bob from AZ

[Granny74]

Wabash: When you are in rolling hills, do you get a feeling of the cars coming against the locomotive in a long train such as a double stack container train?
Bob from AZ

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all your feeback, I am grateful. I was thinking along the right track. I was aware of the retainers, and figured that is what they were building up, or just building up thier resivior of air. I also notice they will stop, then move a bit sometimes and then stop again. THis is I bet the brake check. They don't use the brakes for some time before this summit, it is all uphill for a very long stretch (at least 20 miles). Thanks again, I appreciate all your info.

Sil

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all your feeback, I am grateful. I was thinking along the right track. I was aware of the retainers, and figured that is what they were building up, or just building up thier resivior of air. I also notice they will stop, then move a bit sometimes and then stop again. THis is I bet the brake check. They don't use the brakes for some time before this summit, it is all uphill for a very long stretch (at least 20 miles). Thanks again, I appreciate all your info.

Sil

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Years ago there used to be electric horns mounted on poles just as the grade started down and if the trains speed exceeded the regulated speed at that point the horns started to sound to warn the crew to get their train under control now...

Do modern locomotives have anyhthing like that now? I have noticed on the highways that some of the semis have equipment that links with the weigh stations and they get a signal in the cab if they have to stop at the weigh station or can proceed. Is there a speed detector on grades that alerts the crew that they are going too fast?

A related question I guess:
Didn't the ATS system also stop the train automatically if it crossed a red and the crew didn't react?

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Years ago there used to be electric horns mounted on poles just as the grade started down and if the trains speed exceeded the regulated speed at that point the horns started to sound to warn the crew to get their train under control now...

Do modern locomotives have anyhthing like that now? I have noticed on the highways that some of the semis have equipment that links with the weigh stations and they get a signal in the cab if they have to stop at the weigh station or can proceed. Is there a speed detector on grades that alerts the crew that they are going too fast?

A related question I guess:
Didn't the ATS system also stop the train automatically if it crossed a red and the crew didn't react?