Bad train pictures

[M636C]

Tom,

The usual reason for excess power is "balancing", getting a locomotive from one location to another where it is needed, and running it attached to a train to avoid using a extra crew for a non revenue movement.

Has there been a pattern to the operation of two units, mainly in one direction, or varying in a regular pattern between northbound and southbound?

If there was a busy train in one direction, it might be convenient to combine the cars from two trains in the opposite direction, and run the locomotive back on an earlier or later train.

A different reason could be testing of units recently out of workshops. If AEM-7s are being upgraded in some respect, or just falling due for a periodic repair, it might be considered prudent to give them a couple of runs with another reliable unit to check for any break-in failures without risking a delay to a passenger train.

I hope this isn't too simplified an explanation, but those are the main reasons for such workings.

As an aside, in Australia, there were some short distance coal train workings which were often delayed by higher priority trains, and these were worked by double Beyer-Garratt articulated steam locomotives. When the locomotives ran out of coal, they ran back to the locomotive facility to re-coal, and were often replaced by a similar pair. This allowed fans to see pairs of these huge locomotives, working light without trains, passing eachother in opposite directions!

This is an extreme example of wasteful working, and is what Amtrak, running extra locomotives attached to normal trains, as you describe, is trying to avoid!

Peter

[M636C]

Tom,

The usual reason for excess power is "balancing", getting a locomotive from one location to another where it is needed, and running it attached to a train to avoid using a extra crew for a non revenue movement.

Has there been a pattern to the operation of two units, mainly in one direction, or varying in a regular pattern between northbound and southbound?

If there was a busy train in one direction, it might be convenient to combine the cars from two trains in the opposite direction, and run the locomotive back on an earlier or later train.

A different reason could be testing of units recently out of workshops. If AEM-7s are being upgraded in some respect, or just falling due for a periodic repair, it might be considered prudent to give them a couple of runs with another reliable unit to check for any break-in failures without risking a delay to a passenger train.

I hope this isn't too simplified an explanation, but those are the main reasons for such workings.

As an aside, in Australia, there were some short distance coal train workings which were often delayed by higher priority trains, and these were worked by double Beyer-Garratt articulated steam locomotives. When the locomotives ran out of coal, they ran back to the locomotive facility to re-coal, and were often replaced by a similar pair. This allowed fans to see pairs of these huge locomotives, working light without trains, passing eachother in opposite directions!

This is an extreme example of wasteful working, and is what Amtrak, running extra locomotives attached to normal trains, as you describe, is trying to avoid!

Peter

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Now thats a smart idea, a built in jumper cable plug.
Down here, our shop guys have 30' jumper cables, home made from welding cables, I think.
We have to jump off a lot of the older locomotives left here by foreign crews, the old Santa Fe units even more than most, because they are told to shut them down when they tie up.

And yeah, you'd think having close to 500 gallons on board would be enough....
(hey, you through stepping in Doggy doo for a while?)

Ed

Doggy doo???? I had to look that up, not use to technical terms..

answer is yes and have been for sometime. I dont have the patients for that stuff anymore. if i wanted to here fighting and bickering i go into the living room and sit with the wife. it usually takes about 5 min for her to come up with something to start a fight over. takes the wind from your sail real quick. i bypass any subject that i see that he starts and bypass all responses he makes. life is easier that way.

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Now thats a smart idea, a built in jumper cable plug.
Down here, our shop guys have 30' jumper cables, home made from welding cables, I think.
We have to jump off a lot of the older locomotives left here by foreign crews, the old Santa Fe units even more than most, because they are told to shut them down when they tie up.

And yeah, you'd think having close to 500 gallons on board would be enough....
(hey, you through stepping in Doggy doo for a while?)

Ed

Doggy doo???? I had to look that up, not use to technical terms..

answer is yes and have been for sometime. I dont have the patients for that stuff anymore. if i wanted to here fighting and bickering i go into the living room and sit with the wife. it usually takes about 5 min for her to come up with something to start a fight over. takes the wind from your sail real quick. i bypass any subject that i see that he starts and bypass all responses he makes. life is easier that way.

[edblysard]

Yeah, but just when you think your through with that one, another one comes in from out in the weeds...

Ed

[edblysard]

Yeah, but just when you think your through with that one, another one comes in from out in the weeds...

Ed

[Mikeygaw]

i was looking at some railroad radio frequencies, and noticed that some have PBX listed as what their use for. What does PBX stand for?

[Mikeygaw]

i was looking at some railroad radio frequencies, and noticed that some have PBX listed as what their use for. What does PBX stand for?

[Anonymous]

PBX means "Private Business Exchange" It's an old Bell System term for an in-house private telephone exchange system.

[Anonymous]

PBX means "Private Business Exchange" It's an old Bell System term for an in-house private telephone exchange system.

[Anonymous]

I have a real stupid question...Sorry.

I just read the new Trains article about UP needing extra Loco's in southern California. If that is the case why are there UP locos on the East Coast?

[Anonymous]

I have a real stupid question...Sorry.

I just read the new Trains article about UP needing extra Loco's in southern California. If that is the case why are there UP locos on the East Coast?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by talbanese

I have a real stupid question...Sorry.

I just read the new Trains article about UP needing extra Loco's in southern California. If that is the case why are there UP locos on the East Coast?

I'm just guessing here, but I'd have to say "prior commitments". Those loco hours they "borrowed" need to be repaid. It's probably not limited to UP, it just looks like it caught up to them...

As a sidebar to that question, though, what are the terms for this type of transaction? Do the RRs have a certain amount of time to repay what they borrow?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by talbanese

I have a real stupid question...Sorry.

I just read the new Trains article about UP needing extra Loco's in southern California. If that is the case why are there UP locos on the East Coast?

I'm just guessing here, but I'd have to say "prior commitments". Those loco hours they "borrowed" need to be repaid. It's probably not limited to UP, it just looks like it caught up to them...

As a sidebar to that question, though, what are the terms for this type of transaction? Do the RRs have a certain amount of time to repay what they borrow?

[Anonymous]

I see a Question about Power, and how Trains are powered.

I'll look at this from the passenger Train perspective.

Our Fleet- 1x (10-20) EMD 59PHI- those locomotives are huge, with built in generators, but often, they are in for minor repairs, etc..

So we have a replacemnt fleet.
An F7 series locomotive, A GP9r

So when a GP9r is hocked up to 6 passenger cars- it tends to fail a lot. Why? simple- too much demand from such a small engine. The locomotive can't power The Air conditioning all the bells, the doors, the lights all at the same time

Hence "B" units, (Aka Cp's 600 series) Look like Regular freight cars, except it is one massive generator.

Beofre the F59, we had Strictly F7s Manyu of them required a B unit- however some didn't.

This, too, is simple. It really depends on the cars.

6 car Trains, all Newer amtrak cars, requirew like posted above, heat, A/C bells, lights.

a 6 car train with the 1947 cars requires one thing, Lights, heat and A Pa system, hence there is no need for a B unit.

Want A/C in those cars? put down the window.

It depends on the Length, and what type of cars they are to determine weather or not a B unit is needed.

5 old cars- No generator . 5 new amtrak cars, big time Generator.

[Anonymous]

I see a Question about Power, and how Trains are powered.

I'll look at this from the passenger Train perspective.

Our Fleet- 1x (10-20) EMD 59PHI- those locomotives are huge, with built in generators, but often, they are in for minor repairs, etc..

So we have a replacemnt fleet.
An F7 series locomotive, A GP9r

So when a GP9r is hocked up to 6 passenger cars- it tends to fail a lot. Why? simple- too much demand from such a small engine. The locomotive can't power The Air conditioning all the bells, the doors, the lights all at the same time

Hence "B" units, (Aka Cp's 600 series) Look like Regular freight cars, except it is one massive generator.

Beofre the F59, we had Strictly F7s Manyu of them required a B unit- however some didn't.

This, too, is simple. It really depends on the cars.

6 car Trains, all Newer amtrak cars, requirew like posted above, heat, A/C bells, lights.

a 6 car train with the 1947 cars requires one thing, Lights, heat and A Pa system, hence there is no need for a B unit.

Want A/C in those cars? put down the window.

It depends on the Length, and what type of cars they are to determine weather or not a B unit is needed.

5 old cars- No generator . 5 new amtrak cars, big time Generator.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Quentin,
A closed cooling system with antifreeze would require a themostat and a presurized system.

You understand that the water pump in your car isnt a pump, but presure device, an impeller, to keep a constant pressure (appox 14 psi) on the block, or hot side of the system?
Water under pressure boils at a highter tempature.
Water under pressure with coolant/antifreeze even higher.
Your closed system uses convection and the pressure from the water pump to cause a partial exchange of the cool water in the radiator with the hot water in the block when the thermostat opens, usually about 195 degrees for most GM V8 engines.
This temp keeps the engine running at the most efficent temp, too cool and oil dosnt flow enough, too hot, oils burns and thickens.
The thermostat in your car is the "sensor" that decides when the enging is too hot, and allows cooler water from the radiator, to flow into the block, or too cold, and restricts the flow of cool water.
By the way, this isnt to remove the heat of the combustion, most of that heat is blown out the tailpipe, it is to keep the lubricating oil at the correct temp to allow it to do its job, prevent wear.
(Volkswagon had a very successful air cooled motor, with a oil cooler.
Add a oil cooler to your car, and watch the efficency and gas milage increase.)

This exchange is almost a complete exchange at first, but as the water temp rises, the thermostat begins to open and close quickly, several times every few minutes, until a balance is established, and the termostat remains partially open all the time, allowing a small amount of cooler water from the radiator to enter the block all the time, keeping the engine at the required temp for efficent performance.
Speed up, and the process changes, the thermostat closes even more, because the air blowing through the radiator removes even more heat quicker, so the water becomes cooler, and less of this cooler/colder water is needed to maintain the correct engine temp.
Slow down, the amount of air blowing through the radiator decreases, the heat exchange process between the radiator and the outside air lessens, so a fan is needed to pull cooler air through the radiator, and the thermostat opens wider, because more of this warmer, or less cool water is needed to kept the engine temp correct..
At highway speed, a fan clutch cuts out the radiator fan completly, it freewheels, because enough air is blowing across the radiator to remove the excess heat.
Closed systems are designed for short, constant speed use, where cooling efficency is a requirement, due to space limitations.
All of that to get to this.

Locomotives require a long term, constant use system, moderatly efficent, and having no real space limitatons. (you can use as big a radiator as you need to)
Locomotive water pumps are just that, pumps that move water in GPM rates.
Because it is a open, or non pressurized system, evaporation will occure, but leaks of any kind are, for the most part, small.
In your closed system, a pin hole in a radiator hose will empty most of the system, because it is under pressure.
A pin hole in a locomotive dosnt empty the system.
You car, and a closed, pressurized system, requires quite a few complicated parts, a locomotive dosnt.
Your car operates at a almost constant speed, and part of that speed is used to cool the engine, a locomotive operates at several different throttle setting constantly, and, unless you mount the radiator on the nose, air flow over the radiator due to the speed of the equipment is nill, it has to be created by a fan.

A closed system requires a precise mixture of water and coolant/antifreeze, with a fixed amount of water, change any of those, and you change the efficency of the system.
Closed systems are pressurized, any leak is massive.

Open systems require water, pumps, cooling fan ,a simple temp probe in the radiator, and something a closed system cant use, a reserve supply of water.
Leaks, unless they are into the crankcase/oil system, are not a problem, and are usualy slow and small, and you have a reserve supply of water.

Again, size and location play/use a large role.

You car blows a radiator hose, you tow it to a shop, or home, and fix it with relatively simple tools.

Lose a thermostat or a hose on a locomotive in the middle of Kansas, and
your stuck, real stuck, because now you not only have to find a way to move the locomotive, but the train it is attached to.

The simpler a system is, both in design and maintaiance, is the key for locomotives.
These things run from Canada to Brownsville, there isnt too many places where the crew can pull in and get it fixed.

The kiss principle applies here, the less moving parts or complicated systems and subsystems, the less likely the system will fail.

All of that said, yes, you could design a closed system, but it wouldnt survive long without heavy maintainance, and maintainance cost are a big part of railroading.

Ed

Ed, while I will never dispute anything you say pertaining to the railroads(as you are god!), I do however dispute your description of the automobile water pump and cooling system. Water pumps on conventional automobile cooling systems are not pressure devices- they are simply pumps. The pressure in an enclosed auto cooling system is a by-product of heat through combustion and is regulated and maintained by the thermostat, cooling fans, and radiator. A trans or engine oil pump relate directly to pressure.
Your insight and info on the loco engines is great! Pure mass is an issue- I've seen align-bore equipment for auto eng blocks but can't imagine what that would take for massive locomotive diesels. I can see why they would 'module design'.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Quentin,
A closed cooling system with antifreeze would require a themostat and a presurized system.

You understand that the water pump in your car isnt a pump, but presure device, an impeller, to keep a constant pressure (appox 14 psi) on the block, or hot side of the system?
Water under pressure boils at a highter tempature.
Water under pressure with coolant/antifreeze even higher.
Your closed system uses convection and the pressure from the water pump to cause a partial exchange of the cool water in the radiator with the hot water in the block when the thermostat opens, usually about 195 degrees for most GM V8 engines.
This temp keeps the engine running at the most efficent temp, too cool and oil dosnt flow enough, too hot, oils burns and thickens.
The thermostat in your car is the "sensor" that decides when the enging is too hot, and allows cooler water from the radiator, to flow into the block, or too cold, and restricts the flow of cool water.
By the way, this isnt to remove the heat of the combustion, most of that heat is blown out the tailpipe, it is to keep the lubricating oil at the correct temp to allow it to do its job, prevent wear.
(Volkswagon had a very successful air cooled motor, with a oil cooler.
Add a oil cooler to your car, and watch the efficency and gas milage increase.)

This exchange is almost a complete exchange at first, but as the water temp rises, the thermostat begins to open and close quickly, several times every few minutes, until a balance is established, and the termostat remains partially open all the time, allowing a small amount of cooler water from the radiator to enter the block all the time, keeping the engine at the required temp for efficent performance.
Speed up, and the process changes, the thermostat closes even more, because the air blowing through the radiator removes even more heat quicker, so the water becomes cooler, and less of this cooler/colder water is needed to maintain the correct engine temp.
Slow down, the amount of air blowing through the radiator decreases, the heat exchange process between the radiator and the outside air lessens, so a fan is needed to pull cooler air through the radiator, and the thermostat opens wider, because more of this warmer, or less cool water is needed to kept the engine temp correct..
At highway speed, a fan clutch cuts out the radiator fan completly, it freewheels, because enough air is blowing across the radiator to remove the excess heat.
Closed systems are designed for short, constant speed use, where cooling efficency is a requirement, due to space limitations.
All of that to get to this.

Locomotives require a long term, constant use system, moderatly efficent, and having no real space limitatons. (you can use as big a radiator as you need to)
Locomotive water pumps are just that, pumps that move water in GPM rates.
Because it is a open, or non pressurized system, evaporation will occure, but leaks of any kind are, for the most part, small.
In your closed system, a pin hole in a radiator hose will empty most of the system, because it is under pressure.
A pin hole in a locomotive dosnt empty the system.
You car, and a closed, pressurized system, requires quite a few complicated parts, a locomotive dosnt.
Your car operates at a almost constant speed, and part of that speed is used to cool the engine, a locomotive operates at several different throttle setting constantly, and, unless you mount the radiator on the nose, air flow over the radiator due to the speed of the equipment is nill, it has to be created by a fan.

A closed system requires a precise mixture of water and coolant/antifreeze, with a fixed amount of water, change any of those, and you change the efficency of the system.
Closed systems are pressurized, any leak is massive.

Open systems require water, pumps, cooling fan ,a simple temp probe in the radiator, and something a closed system cant use, a reserve supply of water.
Leaks, unless they are into the crankcase/oil system, are not a problem, and are usualy slow and small, and you have a reserve supply of water.

Again, size and location play/use a large role.

You car blows a radiator hose, you tow it to a shop, or home, and fix it with relatively simple tools.

Lose a thermostat or a hose on a locomotive in the middle of Kansas, and
your stuck, real stuck, because now you not only have to find a way to move the locomotive, but the train it is attached to.

The simpler a system is, both in design and maintaiance, is the key for locomotives.
These things run from Canada to Brownsville, there isnt too many places where the crew can pull in and get it fixed.

The kiss principle applies here, the less moving parts or complicated systems and subsystems, the less likely the system will fail.

All of that said, yes, you could design a closed system, but it wouldnt survive long without heavy maintainance, and maintainance cost are a big part of railroading.

Ed

Ed, while I will never dispute anything you say pertaining to the railroads(as you are god!), I do however dispute your description of the automobile water pump and cooling system. Water pumps on conventional automobile cooling systems are not pressure devices- they are simply pumps. The pressure in an enclosed auto cooling system is a by-product of heat through combustion and is regulated and maintained by the thermostat, cooling fans, and radiator. A trans or engine oil pump relate directly to pressure.
Your insight and info on the loco engines is great! Pure mass is an issue- I've seen align-bore equipment for auto eng blocks but can't imagine what that would take for massive locomotive diesels. I can see why they would 'module design'.

[Mikeygaw]

what is an idler car?

[Mikeygaw]

what is an idler car?

[Modelcar]

T Scott...In the discussion of water pumps and pressure in a conventional auto cooling system....don't forget one of the most important items....The pressure cap on the radiator tank.

[Modelcar]

T Scott...In the discussion of water pumps and pressure in a conventional auto cooling system....don't forget one of the most important items....The pressure cap on the radiator tank.

[edblysard]

Mike,
A idler car is usually a empty flat car, or a empty boxcar, placed in be-tween two very heavy pieces of equipment, to distribute the weight over a larger foot print on the rails.
You wouldnt want, say, two depressed centerbeam flatcars, loaded with those huge transformers for power plant, to cross a light duty trestel at the same time, the bridge might be rated to hold one, but not the weight of two of them at the same time.
The idler spaces the weight out, so it isnt all in the same place at the same time.
Of, if you have steel beams that are longer that the flat car they are loaded on, you put a empty flat on either end of the load, to keep the ends of the beams, or whatever over sized load you have, from hitting the ends of the other cars.

Think spacer car instead...
Ed

[edblysard]

Mike,
A idler car is usually a empty flat car, or a empty boxcar, placed in be-tween two very heavy pieces of equipment, to distribute the weight over a larger foot print on the rails.
You wouldnt want, say, two depressed centerbeam flatcars, loaded with those huge transformers for power plant, to cross a light duty trestel at the same time, the bridge might be rated to hold one, but not the weight of two of them at the same time.
The idler spaces the weight out, so it isnt all in the same place at the same time.
Of, if you have steel beams that are longer that the flat car they are loaded on, you put a empty flat on either end of the load, to keep the ends of the beams, or whatever over sized load you have, from hitting the ends of the other cars.

Think spacer car instead...
Ed

[pmsteamman]

Mikey, a idler car is usually a non-revenue car. They are used in a couple different ways. One is in carferry service, most approaches to the boat cannot suport the weight of a loco so flat cars are used to reach into the ship and grab the cars. Another way they are used is if a load extends over the ends of the car, idler cars will be placed on each end. Hope this helps Chris

[pmsteamman]

Mikey, a idler car is usually a non-revenue car. They are used in a couple different ways. One is in carferry service, most approaches to the boat cannot suport the weight of a loco so flat cars are used to reach into the ship and grab the cars. Another way they are used is if a load extends over the ends of the car, idler cars will be placed on each end. Hope this helps Chris

[dehusman]

Regarding railroads paying each other for the use of locomotives, normally this is accounted for with "horsepower hours" (hphrs). If I have another RR's 3000 hp engine on my railroad for 20 hours, then I owe the other RR 60,000 hphrs. The RR's keep track of how long they keep each locomotive and then on a monthly basis compare the balance between each other. If it gets too far out of balance (several million hphrs) the owing RR will give the owed RR some engines for a period of time to pay back the debt and get in balance. If I owe 9.6 million hphrs, I could let the other RR use 5 C40-8's for about 20 days and pay it back (5 x 4000hp x 24hrs x 20 days = 9.6 mill hphrs).

This goes on all the time. Its always amusing that somebody sees a NS unit in Oregon or UP unit in Florida and thinks it means there is a merger happening. RR exchange units all the time. The railroads always have hundreds of thier units on other roads and hundreds of other units on their RR.

Dave H.

[dehusman]

Regarding railroads paying each other for the use of locomotives, normally this is accounted for with "horsepower hours" (hphrs). If I have another RR's 3000 hp engine on my railroad for 20 hours, then I owe the other RR 60,000 hphrs. The RR's keep track of how long they keep each locomotive and then on a monthly basis compare the balance between each other. If it gets too far out of balance (several million hphrs) the owing RR will give the owed RR some engines for a period of time to pay back the debt and get in balance. If I owe 9.6 million hphrs, I could let the other RR use 5 C40-8's for about 20 days and pay it back (5 x 4000hp x 24hrs x 20 days = 9.6 mill hphrs).

This goes on all the time. Its always amusing that somebody sees a NS unit in Oregon or UP unit in Florida and thinks it means there is a merger happening. RR exchange units all the time. The railroads always have hundreds of thier units on other roads and hundreds of other units on their RR.

Dave H.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Idler cars were (are?) a regular part of the consist of the bottle train that served or serves Acme Steel in Riverdale IL. The bottle cars ride on 24 wheels but are so heavy that they still require the idler cars to avoid overloading bridges.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Idler cars were (are?) a regular part of the consist of the bottle train that served or serves Acme Steel in Riverdale IL. The bottle cars ride on 24 wheels but are so heavy that they still require the idler cars to avoid overloading bridges.