Bad train pictures

[M636C]

dharmon,

Certainly, the engine heat was the reason I was given for that location.

And I've been trying to remember my RAAF Squadron numbers (I was only directly involved with the F/A-18s), so I have to guess - do No 10 fly AP-3C Orions?

But in general, the RAAF combine a really easygoing approach off duty with really professional flying. In the RAN we are just jealous of the quality accommodation they seem to arrange when away from home base!

Peter

[M636C]

dharmon,

Certainly, the engine heat was the reason I was given for that location.

And I've been trying to remember my RAAF Squadron numbers (I was only directly involved with the F/A-18s), so I have to guess - do No 10 fly AP-3C Orions?

But in general, the RAAF combine a really easygoing approach off duty with really professional flying. In the RAN we are just jealous of the quality accommodation they seem to arrange when away from home base!

Peter

[Mookie]

Since we are on the subject of horns - does anyone know what the old Burlington covered wagons had for a horn. I would like to see about getting a recording of one and don't know what to look for. Also a good recording of old steam whistles, and sounds of trains running - w/o anything else included. Any ideas? Don't want to just order and then not like it.

Mook

[Mookie]

Since we are on the subject of horns - does anyone know what the old Burlington covered wagons had for a horn. I would like to see about getting a recording of one and don't know what to look for. Also a good recording of old steam whistles, and sounds of trains running - w/o anything else included. Any ideas? Don't want to just order and then not like it.

Mook

[wabash1]

On the old sd40s and gp 38s there was a horn mounted on both ends. which ever way you was running is the end the horn blew on. never had problem with snow and ice as you are blowing constantly keeping them clear. then the newer units came out with the horns in the middle .

as far as headlights go i like them up high. having them in the nose is a pain when you walk out the door they are right there in your face hot and blinding. up high there is no problem with seeing and being seen. even on dim these lights are a nussance. in the summer all insects are attrackted to these lights so when you walk out the door your mobbed by the insects ( trust me its best keeping your mouth shut going out the door or something will fly in) .

[wabash1]

On the old sd40s and gp 38s there was a horn mounted on both ends. which ever way you was running is the end the horn blew on. never had problem with snow and ice as you are blowing constantly keeping them clear. then the newer units came out with the horns in the middle .

as far as headlights go i like them up high. having them in the nose is a pain when you walk out the door they are right there in your face hot and blinding. up high there is no problem with seeing and being seen. even on dim these lights are a nussance. in the summer all insects are attrackted to these lights so when you walk out the door your mobbed by the insects ( trust me its best keeping your mouth shut going out the door or something will fly in) .

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon


albeit at a lesser amount than if they were mounted on a leading edge...or in this case at the front of the cab. But if the radiant heat from the prime mover is helping to anti-ice or de-ice the working parts, combined with removing it from the leading surface.....that makes more sense to me....

leading edge
anti-ice
de-ice
leading surface

Gee Dan, you sound LIKE a pilot [}:)] [;)] [:p]

lol, I don't like DE-ICE. To me why let the problem "build up" and THEN take care of it. That is why anti-ice has become more popular, it prevents the problem in the first place as you well know. Beside the de-ice boots are a pain to deal with, and care for.

So back to trains . . . the horn away from the front of the loco is basically an "anti-ice" feature. But in this case more of an anti-snow idea. Did't the valve in the horn sometimes freeze in the winter? It seems like I have heard stories about that.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon


albeit at a lesser amount than if they were mounted on a leading edge...or in this case at the front of the cab. But if the radiant heat from the prime mover is helping to anti-ice or de-ice the working parts, combined with removing it from the leading surface.....that makes more sense to me....

leading edge
anti-ice
de-ice
leading surface

Gee Dan, you sound LIKE a pilot [}:)] [;)] [:p]

lol, I don't like DE-ICE. To me why let the problem "build up" and THEN take care of it. That is why anti-ice has become more popular, it prevents the problem in the first place as you well know. Beside the de-ice boots are a pain to deal with, and care for.

So back to trains . . . the horn away from the front of the loco is basically an "anti-ice" feature. But in this case more of an anti-snow idea. Did't the valve in the horn sometimes freeze in the winter? It seems like I have heard stories about that.

[Anonymous]

Wabash,

I know what you mean about the lower mounted lights. I walk out the front door and BAM! I'm overtaken by light and heat. I react much like Kramer did in the Seinfeld episode where he opens his door and the Kenny Rogers Roasters Neon Red is overpwowering his room! One of the best episodes ever! LOL

[Anonymous]

Wabash,

I know what you mean about the lower mounted lights. I walk out the front door and BAM! I'm overtaken by light and heat. I react much like Kramer did in the Seinfeld episode where he opens his door and the Kenny Rogers Roasters Neon Red is overpwowering his room! One of the best episodes ever! LOL

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

dharmon,

Certainly, the engine heat was the reason I was given for that location.

And I've been trying to remember my RAAF Squadron numbers (I was only directly involved with the F/A-18s), so I have to guess - do No 10 fly AP-3C Orions?

But in general, the RAAF combine a really easygoing approach off duty with really professional flying. In the RAN we are just jealous of the quality accommodation they seem to arrange when away from home base!

Peter

AP-3s..you are correct sir....and with regards to the work hard / play hard. Last night was the end of exercise party hosted by the squadron. This morning, after sampling a fair amount of Coopers....I am most assuredly in support of Rule G. Typing seems very loud this morning.

No one is allowed to use all caps until noon.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

dharmon,

Certainly, the engine heat was the reason I was given for that location.

And I've been trying to remember my RAAF Squadron numbers (I was only directly involved with the F/A-18s), so I have to guess - do No 10 fly AP-3C Orions?

But in general, the RAAF combine a really easygoing approach off duty with really professional flying. In the RAN we are just jealous of the quality accommodation they seem to arrange when away from home base!

Peter

AP-3s..you are correct sir....and with regards to the work hard / play hard. Last night was the end of exercise party hosted by the squadron. This morning, after sampling a fair amount of Coopers....I am most assuredly in support of Rule G. Typing seems very loud this morning.

No one is allowed to use all caps until noon.

[M636C]

Dan,

Coopers is only used by South Australians, the Orions being based just North of Adelaide. Other Australians blame the local water and old English brewing techniques for the results obtained drinking Coopers!

Only minimal capital letters, even now!

Peter

[M636C]

Dan,

Coopers is only used by South Australians, the Orions being based just North of Adelaide. Other Australians blame the local water and old English brewing techniques for the results obtained drinking Coopers!

Only minimal capital letters, even now!

Peter

[cpbloom]

I didn't see this posted previously, if it has been I apologize. Anyway, my question is about locomotives idling; I'm not talking about waiting at a signal, but more like waiting in yards for their next road assignments. Is it more efficient (certainly not fuel efficient) to keep them running while their not doing anything. I was EMD's website and they said that locos spend more than 3600 hours a year in idle. I have always wondered about this but never asked.

[cpbloom]

I didn't see this posted previously, if it has been I apologize. Anyway, my question is about locomotives idling; I'm not talking about waiting at a signal, but more like waiting in yards for their next road assignments. Is it more efficient (certainly not fuel efficient) to keep them running while their not doing anything. I was EMD's website and they said that locos spend more than 3600 hours a year in idle. I have always wondered about this but never asked.

[M636C]

cpbloom,

There are two points to your question. Yes fuel is costly, but EMD in particular have introduced a low speed idle, which cuts idle fuel consumption by about 30%. What is the alternative? If the engine is shut down, it cools down. This causes stresses in the structure of the engine, and in cold weather, the coolant might freeze. Some locomotives have a computer system that checks the temperature and restarts the engine and runs it for as long as required to heat it up for an extended shut down. Otherwise heaters can be fitted to maintain the engine temperature.

EMD engines are at most risk, because they have air inlet ports part way down the cylinder, and there is always the risk that coolant might leak through these ports into the cylinder. This is only a problem if the piston is below the inlet port, because it is possible that on starting, the water will be trapped above the piston on starting, and will (being effectively incompressible) breal the head from the cylinder liner. The risk of this happening has been greatly reduced since the change to water jackets attached to the liners, which occured with the 567C engine in the mid 1950s, but there is still a real risk, and EMD locomotives still have a very slow crank speed on first restarting, to help any water drain before it can be trapped.

Locomotives with 567, 567A and 567B engines were best left idling between overhauls to avoid damage. The Victorian Railways actually disconnected the engine start switch, and insisted that should a locomotive shut down (or be shut down) a technician should be called to check the locomotive out before restarting it. This was mainly due to concern for water leaks.

While things are not as bad today, there is still a trade-off between paying for fuel to leave the unit idling, or risking greater cost for possible damage by shutting the unit down.

Peter

[M636C]

cpbloom,

There are two points to your question. Yes fuel is costly, but EMD in particular have introduced a low speed idle, which cuts idle fuel consumption by about 30%. What is the alternative? If the engine is shut down, it cools down. This causes stresses in the structure of the engine, and in cold weather, the coolant might freeze. Some locomotives have a computer system that checks the temperature and restarts the engine and runs it for as long as required to heat it up for an extended shut down. Otherwise heaters can be fitted to maintain the engine temperature.

EMD engines are at most risk, because they have air inlet ports part way down the cylinder, and there is always the risk that coolant might leak through these ports into the cylinder. This is only a problem if the piston is below the inlet port, because it is possible that on starting, the water will be trapped above the piston on starting, and will (being effectively incompressible) breal the head from the cylinder liner. The risk of this happening has been greatly reduced since the change to water jackets attached to the liners, which occured with the 567C engine in the mid 1950s, but there is still a real risk, and EMD locomotives still have a very slow crank speed on first restarting, to help any water drain before it can be trapped.

Locomotives with 567, 567A and 567B engines were best left idling between overhauls to avoid damage. The Victorian Railways actually disconnected the engine start switch, and insisted that should a locomotive shut down (or be shut down) a technician should be called to check the locomotive out before restarting it. This was mainly due to concern for water leaks.

While things are not as bad today, there is still a trade-off between paying for fuel to leave the unit idling, or risking greater cost for possible damage by shutting the unit down.

Peter

[Modelcar]

What is the big issue that coolant can't be contained in a diesel engine of railroad engine size....? I understand large truck engines aren't nearly as big but they do have contained cooling systems that contain antifreeze....3600 hrs. per year idling totals up engine usage and fuel consumption pretty rapidly and today's fuel costs add quickly. But back to my original thought...Why can't these engines coolant be sealed in the system as well as other internal compustion engine systems...?

[Modelcar]

What is the big issue that coolant can't be contained in a diesel engine of railroad engine size....? I understand large truck engines aren't nearly as big but they do have contained cooling systems that contain antifreeze....3600 hrs. per year idling totals up engine usage and fuel consumption pretty rapidly and today's fuel costs add quickly. But back to my original thought...Why can't these engines coolant be sealed in the system as well as other internal compustion engine systems...?

[M636C]

Modelcar,

Most truck engines, as I understand it, are cast blocks with cast in water jackets, and the block expands and contracts as a single unit. The EMD engine is a structure made up of castings and rolled sections welded together, with water passages and jackets confined to specific areas, with flexible connections between the cylinder liners and the block itself for the water/coolant. Differential heating and cooling causes stress in the structure, particularly in the welds. This can result in cracks, requiring welding, and in serious cases stress relief by heating the entire structure, followed by remachining to get proper alignment.

I'd like to know how much of the 3600 hours/year is "avoidable", the loco just sitting in a yard awaiting assignment, and how much is "unavoidable", incurred with a crew aboard, coupled to a train, checking for air leaks, or waiting for a crossing on single track, when the duration is short but of unknown duration, like an automobile waiting at lights or a railroad crossing.

Peter

[M636C]

Modelcar,

Most truck engines, as I understand it, are cast blocks with cast in water jackets, and the block expands and contracts as a single unit. The EMD engine is a structure made up of castings and rolled sections welded together, with water passages and jackets confined to specific areas, with flexible connections between the cylinder liners and the block itself for the water/coolant. Differential heating and cooling causes stress in the structure, particularly in the welds. This can result in cracks, requiring welding, and in serious cases stress relief by heating the entire structure, followed by remachining to get proper alignment.

I'd like to know how much of the 3600 hours/year is "avoidable", the loco just sitting in a yard awaiting assignment, and how much is "unavoidable", incurred with a crew aboard, coupled to a train, checking for air leaks, or waiting for a crossing on single track, when the duration is short but of unknown duration, like an automobile waiting at lights or a railroad crossing.

Peter

[edblysard]

Both EMD and GE have auto start/stop systems on their newer locomotives.
Said system checks coolant temp, battery charge and air pressure in the main.
Most have a time setting, if the locomotive is isloated, and no control surface is moved,(throttle, train or independent brake), the locomotive's computer shuts the prime mover off.
If the coolant drops below a certain temp, battery charge drops, or air pressure drops, the computer restarts the prime mover, to re charge/ heat up these systems.

Almost every BNSF Dash 9 has htis, and quite a few EMD, back to the SD40-2 retrofits.

Our MK1500Ds, and the "New GP15 and 20s" have this feature.

Before the advent of this system, the odds of shutting down a locomotive for the night, and having it re start easily the next morning were not all that great.
Battries run down, and jump starting a SD40-2 aint that easy, your Chevy aint up to that, you need another locomotive and a really long set of jumper cables to do it.

A dead locomotive is a expensive track bumper, and if its dead in front of the rest of your locomotives, well...

Add to that the then cheap price of diesel, the chance of engine damage, and the hassle of starting a cold, older locomotives, leaving them running was a good choice, back then.

Todays solid state equipment, and the cost of diesel, the emissions laws, and better engineered equipment, shuting a locomotive down when not in use make sense, from a economic and mechanical point of view.

Ed

[edblysard]

Both EMD and GE have auto start/stop systems on their newer locomotives.
Said system checks coolant temp, battery charge and air pressure in the main.
Most have a time setting, if the locomotive is isloated, and no control surface is moved,(throttle, train or independent brake), the locomotive's computer shuts the prime mover off.
If the coolant drops below a certain temp, battery charge drops, or air pressure drops, the computer restarts the prime mover, to re charge/ heat up these systems.

Almost every BNSF Dash 9 has htis, and quite a few EMD, back to the SD40-2 retrofits.

Our MK1500Ds, and the "New GP15 and 20s" have this feature.

Before the advent of this system, the odds of shutting down a locomotive for the night, and having it re start easily the next morning were not all that great.
Battries run down, and jump starting a SD40-2 aint that easy, your Chevy aint up to that, you need another locomotive and a really long set of jumper cables to do it.

A dead locomotive is a expensive track bumper, and if its dead in front of the rest of your locomotives, well...

Add to that the then cheap price of diesel, the chance of engine damage, and the hassle of starting a cold, older locomotives, leaving them running was a good choice, back then.

Todays solid state equipment, and the cost of diesel, the emissions laws, and better engineered equipment, shuting a locomotive down when not in use make sense, from a economic and mechanical point of view.

Ed

[Modelcar]

....Peter as you describe the flexibility between parts in the locomotive engine....and we're assuming that is the accepted method of constructing these engines over the years....It seems the "leaks" are an accepted action of these assembled parts....It just seems odd there is not a way to install the many parts together that would allow an engine's cooling circuits to have integrity. Many automotive engines have aluminum blocks and contain cast iron cylinder liners...and some cast iron heads along with the aluminum blocks...still maintaining integrity of the cooling system circuits in the engine. I know it is a fact of what several posts are saying....That is, living with the built in "leaks" of the railroad engine...I'm simply wondering why that can't be overcome in design and elimiinate the draining of the cooling system, and or the constant idling.

[Modelcar]

....Peter as you describe the flexibility between parts in the locomotive engine....and we're assuming that is the accepted method of constructing these engines over the years....It seems the "leaks" are an accepted action of these assembled parts....It just seems odd there is not a way to install the many parts together that would allow an engine's cooling circuits to have integrity. Many automotive engines have aluminum blocks and contain cast iron cylinder liners...and some cast iron heads along with the aluminum blocks...still maintaining integrity of the cooling system circuits in the engine. I know it is a fact of what several posts are saying....That is, living with the built in "leaks" of the railroad engine...I'm simply wondering why that can't be overcome in design and elimiinate the draining of the cooling system, and or the constant idling.

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Both EMD and GE have auto start/stop systems on their newer locomotives.
Said system checks coolant temp, battery charge and air pressure in the main.
Most have a time setting, if the locomotive is isloated, and no control surface is moved,(throttle, train or independent brake), the locomotive's computer shuts the prime mover off.
If the coolant drops below a certain temp, battery charge drops, or air pressure drops, the computer restarts the prime mover, to re charge/ heat up these systems.

Almost every BNSF Dash 9 has htis, and quite a few EMD, back to the SD40-2 retrofits.

Our MK1500Ds, and the "New GP15 and 20s" have this feature.

Before the advent of this system, the odds of shutting down a locomotive for the night, and having it re start easily the next morning were not all that great.
Battries run down, and jump starting a SD40-2 aint that easy, your Chevy aint up to that, you need another locomotive and a really long set of jumper cables to do it.

A dead locomotive is a expensive track bumper, and if its dead in front of the rest of your locomotives, well...

Add to that the then cheap price of diesel, the chance of engine damage, and the hassle of starting a cold, older locomotives, leaving them running was a good choice, back then.

Todays solid state equipment, and the cost of diesel, the emissions laws, and better engineered equipment, shuting a locomotive down when not in use make sense, from a economic and mechanical point of view.

Ed

Ed
apparently CSX isnt listening.they let a train run for about 6 hrs today waitng for a new crew.
stay safe
Joe

[JoeKoh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Both EMD and GE have auto start/stop systems on their newer locomotives.
Said system checks coolant temp, battery charge and air pressure in the main.
Most have a time setting, if the locomotive is isloated, and no control surface is moved,(throttle, train or independent brake), the locomotive's computer shuts the prime mover off.
If the coolant drops below a certain temp, battery charge drops, or air pressure drops, the computer restarts the prime mover, to re charge/ heat up these systems.

Almost every BNSF Dash 9 has htis, and quite a few EMD, back to the SD40-2 retrofits.

Our MK1500Ds, and the "New GP15 and 20s" have this feature.

Before the advent of this system, the odds of shutting down a locomotive for the night, and having it re start easily the next morning were not all that great.
Battries run down, and jump starting a SD40-2 aint that easy, your Chevy aint up to that, you need another locomotive and a really long set of jumper cables to do it.

A dead locomotive is a expensive track bumper, and if its dead in front of the rest of your locomotives, well...

Add to that the then cheap price of diesel, the chance of engine damage, and the hassle of starting a cold, older locomotives, leaving them running was a good choice, back then.

Todays solid state equipment, and the cost of diesel, the emissions laws, and better engineered equipment, shuting a locomotive down when not in use make sense, from a economic and mechanical point of view.

Ed

Ed
apparently CSX isnt listening.they let a train run for about 6 hrs today waitng for a new crew.
stay safe
Joe

[Modelcar]

Ed....Those solid state controls now available on modern engines make a bunch of sense...At least the engine does get a chance to shut down when it is inactive for a predetermined time and is restarted before, for example...the battery gets too low to do the starting. That system sure sounds like it makes sense to at leaat save some of the now expensive fuel.

[Modelcar]

Ed....Those solid state controls now available on modern engines make a bunch of sense...At least the engine does get a chance to shut down when it is inactive for a predetermined time and is restarted before, for example...the battery gets too low to do the starting. That system sure sounds like it makes sense to at leaat save some of the now expensive fuel.