Bird's eye view of Rockville Bridge near Harrisburg Pa....

[Modelcar]

....I have a tourist size map of Pennsylvania...roughly 24 by 30" produced in 1928 and it's in real good condition. Sadly it does not include railroads marked on it. But it is interesting to look over.
Item: Train derailment in Muncie here today....Don't really know much of details yet. I have a post of it on the forum here anyone interested.

[southpennrailroad]

Had the South Penn been completed, would most likely look like this as colore routes planned and explored by me. The blue dots are the tunnels along the Pennsylvania Turnpike. This also includes the Harrisburg & South Western to Hagerstownand the Western Marlyland connection, the EBT connection, the Latrobe aligment, the Youghioghey alignment and Wheeling alignment.

Want a larger view? E-mail Me for it.

[southpennrailroad]

An expert on surveying in Somerset County, says this is the most likely item used in surveying the South Penn along the whole route.

[southpennrailroad]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

..."hanging on the ceilings in Highspire"....Not sure that meaning...??

Like ceiling fans!

[Modelcar]

..."hanging on the ceilings in Highspire"....Not sure that meaning...??

[southpennrailroad]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....And Russ, one little tidbit I read some time ago about Breezewood....{which is about 50 miles from my home}....In some time frame in the past, Breezewood had 35 residents and at night the population...{during the vacation driving season}, ratcheted up to over several thousand at night....Even the water table dropped an amazing amount at night...Don't remember the figure.

I can see that happening. That town is a phenomona. But I never eat in that town anymore. I eat in Bedford at Ed'S Steak House or the Pizza shop atthe intersection of 56 & 31.

[southpennrailroad]

I am amazed as well. The tunnels on the turnpike started by the railroad was done by a tree cut atop the mountains. I have even seen the stone monumnets as the railroad called them still atop the Allegheny as well as recently atop the Blue Mtn. Tunnel. Almost identical. That is one way we are able to spot which tunnel is the actual railroad tunnel as the trees are cut above the top of the mountain to each side cut by the railroad. The turnpike built the new tunnels by simply measuring to the left or right depending where they were going to build the new tunnel. The turnpike still has the survey tools (line of sight , all be it hanging on the ceilings in Highspire) used to keep the center of the work done inside the turnpike completion tunnels.





This is what the railroad called a monument. A letter I have is from the work done on the Allegheny Mountain and explains that soon a survey monument wold be built.

[Modelcar]

....And Russ, one little tidbit I read some time ago about Breezewood....{which is about 50 miles from my home}....In some time frame in the past, Breezewood had 35 residents and at night the population...{during the vacation driving season}, ratcheted up to over several thousand at night....Even the water table dropped an amazing amount at night...Don't remember the figure.

[Modelcar]

...Amazing, the stone work on those culverts. For this long one for example...I wonder if they first built a wood form to put the stone up on and then lock it with the keystone, etc...Also I wonder how they lifted such heavy stones in place....Remember this is all being done out in the wilderness...Not in civilized and metropolitian areas for the most part where machinery {if available}, could be put in place to do the lifting.

Tunnels of almost all kinds...railroad or vehicle type are worked from both ends....Some where possible are opened at four locations making 6 headings available to work hence advancing the boring much quicker.

The massive railroad tunnel over in the Alps mountain region that was described in a TRAINS mag. article back some months ago is being worked from many headings...Since it will be something like 35 miles in total length it would be necessary to be boring on as many headings as possible to inhance the progress.

Remember the Chunnel across the English Channel was bored from both ends and it was not just a straight line of boring and they met somewhere out near the center within a foot or two of being in total alinement. {After something like 25 or 30 some miles....!}.

Pennsylvania Turnpike tunnels were bored from both ends too.

For sure it takes accurate surveying.....and I for one, never have understood how that is done to the accuracy point of being right on for a meet in the middle.

Coal mining gets into such type of surveying at times too...Especially when a rescue effort is put forth perhaps a mile or several miles from the mine entrance...they survey back to a point to where they know miners are trapped and put down a rescure shaft and of course they must be right on....Example: Recent operation near Somerset, Pa. mine rescue of the 9 men trapped from a break through into an old mine releasing millions of gallons of water trapping the men. The bored shaft was the route they were rescuded out of the mine. Re: Quecreek, Pa. mine rescue of just a few years ago.

[southpennrailroad]

The same town but looking east from the opposite side of the route 30 corrider looking through Breezewood.

[southpennrailroad]

This is Breezewood just about the time the turnpike just opened.

[southpennrailroad]

Here is the inside of the great South Penn culvert. It is not a railroad tunnel as a lot of people think. This is located in the Bucannon State Forest along the Pike to Bike Trail.

[southpennrailroad]

Standing on the exact spot as the one in the previous photo, is this view of the quarry site in which the stone used to build this 199 foot long culvert came from. Yes I measured it myself (with a helper as well).

[southpennrailroad]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

From what I read, the current Rockville Bridge was built from both sides of the river at the same time and met in the middle...I believe that the variation between the twosections where they met was an inch or two at the most....I have read of Railroad tunnels being constructed the same way on this line....two crews going in from both ends and meeting in the middle.

Yes! I know the South Penn worked this way as well. I think it was their way of thinning out the heard to keep too many hands in one location. This splitting was done in all sites including the cuts, fill, tunnels and even the quarries where many work sites were spread out along the hillsides to get work done. This photo shows a ravine in which the South Penn was supose to work on both hillsides but because we found a few pits where stones were cut out of the ground on the west slope of the ravine reveals that that west side was not being filled in or the quarry for the present culvert would be covered over. It was a great find for the railroad to find culvert stone material in the ground so close to their work site. Very rare indeed.

Notice the unfinished hill or fill to the right of the photo.

[dwil89]

From what I read, the current Rockville Bridge was built from both sides of the river at the same time and met in the middle...I believe that the variation between the twosections where they met was an inch or two at the most....I have read of Railroad tunnels being constructed the same way on this line....two crews going in from both ends and meeting in the middle.

[Modelcar]

Well Russ...Google says it took from 1900 to 1902 to build the Rockville bridge....{which seems pretty quick to me}....But then seeing they had 300 plus stonemasons on the job they must really have put a max. effort forth to get it done. Just seems so short of time to build a structure such as the size of that one. With all these facts I always marvel at them getting these difficult projects completed in such time frames because of the type of transportation and communication available then....! Just can't understand how they accomplished these works so fast. And for the most part they built such stuff to last a long time. A two spand through girder bridge here in Muncie left over from the Pennsylvania line that ran out to the berg of Matthews stands now abandoned roughly 35 years ago and perhaps was built near the beginning of the 20th century...looks like they will stand another 100 years if the supports hold up....Just brute material and construction designs seem to be lasting exceptionally long. Compare with interstate bridges of today and seemingly they are in need of major repair or replacement after 25 or 30 years or so....

[southpennrailroad]

HUMMM! Maybe the letter is talking about another bridge and then again maybe the contract for the present stones for the present Rockville bridge was donein 1884. I will locate and up-load that letter tomorrow as I am a little tired now to locate it. I nver figured it would come up in this conversation. In fact I even omotted it from my CD. Once I find it and have your possible answers or possible ideas, I will have to add it to the CD. How about when or how long did it take to build this present bridge? Please excuse me I know nothing about the Pennsy as your well aware of, just the South Penn. Keep in mind the South Penn died in fall of 1885. Now that I think about it the South Penn stones were supplied and all the bridge piers were built during 1.8 years so I think I answered the question myself as the letter is not talking about the Pennsy Rockville Bridge or of the preseent CVRR. The letter has to be describing a diffrent location but still both railroads.

[Anonymous]

Thanks. It was just a lucky shot.

Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...That's quite a pic catching the two trains right at the former trouble spot...!

[Modelcar]

...That's quite a pic catching the two trains right at the former trouble spot...!

[Anonymous]

The site of the 1997 derailment is apparent in this photo:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=122067

Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Google says the bridge opened March 30, 1902. The article say in 1997 a section at pier 19 failed and dumped rails, stone, and several 100 ton rail cars in the Susquehanna. Since then all owners have had a program under way to strengthen it.

[Anonymous]

You are mistaken.

The current Rockville Bridge, the third by the way,
was completed in 1902. The first train crossed
it on March 30th of that year.

Dave

QUOTE: Originally posted by igoldberg

The rockville bridge opened in 1905. It has stood 102 years of all kinds of weather (including the heavy ice and flooding of 1996) and is still going strong. Pennsy really knew how to build bridges!!!.

[Modelcar]

Google says the bridge opened March 30, 1902. The article say in 1997 a section at pier 19 failed and dumped rails, stone, and several 100 ton rail cars in the Susquehanna. Since then all owners have had a program under way to strengthen it.

[caldreamer]

The rockville bridge opened in 1905. It has stood 102 years of all kinds of weather (including the heavy ice and flooding of 1996) and is still going strong. Pennsy really knew how to build bridges!!!.

[Modelcar]

....Also Google tells me over 300 stonemasons worked on the bridge. Two other bridges were in place first. A wooden one and then an iron structure.

[Modelcar]

....Google says it was built between 1900-02.....{The Rockville Bridge}.

[Modelcar]

...I don't know about the Rockville Bridge date but do know the route up around Horseshoe Curve was opened about 1854 but perhaps another bridge was in place before the stone arch structure to carry traffic across the Susquehanna.

[southpennrailroad]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....I digress a bit....In thinking about the Rockville Bridge.....{the NS route}, I wonder how many man hours were added up to fini***hat stone arch structure across that wide expanse....? Believe I counted around 51 stone arches. They must have rounded up half the stone masons in the country to get that accomplished. And the supply personal that would have been required to keep supplies at hand...?? Not too many trucks available when that was built.

I have a letter that of course is written to the South Penn explaining that the stone needed to build the South Penn piers was some what held up as stone was being cut for both the Pennsy as well as the Cumberland Valley bridges. I suspect but not checked yet when either bridges were built or were they close to the period of 1884.

[Modelcar]

....I digress a bit....In thinking about the Rockville Bridge.....{the NS route}, I wonder how many man hours were added up to fini***hat stone arch structure across that wide expanse....? Believe I counted around 51 stone arches. They must have rounded up half the stone masons in the country to get that accomplished. And the supply personal that would have been required to keep supplies at hand...?? Not too many trucks available when that was built.

[Modelcar]

....Don't seem to have a mile marker chart at the moment so i'm estimating your latest photo is near Laurel Hill......Looks like they had the ROW leveled off nice at this location. What a shame we don't have a finished RR as planned across the state or at least approx. as planned....It sure would be interesting to see trains traversing across that high terrain. The NS...{ex. Pennsylvania}, east - west route is a "normal" type RR route so it looks kinda natural but the South Penn would have been a bit special....!

[southpennrailroad]

The South Penn grade inside the tree line taken from the east bound lanes last winter. MP 102.0 I had to walk a mile back to get this shot as the parking here is bad. Look real close and you should make out the large box culvert. Thsi culvert actually was built in 1885 as a etched date is found in a stone making up the culvert.