QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29 Hello everyone. I just wanted to remind those railfans that have had dealings with mean employees that you have one other recourse: Employee discourteousy is a GCOR infraction: 1.6 Conduct Employees must not be: 5. Immoral 6. Quarrelsome or 7. Discourteous 1.9 Respect of Railroad Company Employees must behave in such a way that the railroad will not be criticized for their actions. Sincerely, Daniel Parks
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
QUOTE: Originally posted by mustanggt Back 2 years ago at north station I took a pic of an MBTA cab coach (to use as a detailing guide for a model which I sold off anyway) and got a "look" from a few Conductors.... They were real grouchy looks too. One of them said: "Put away the *** camera" ,so I did. And after I put it away they still gave me a dirty look. But you can't argue with these guys. They're just doing they're jobs to protect the station, even if they were a little rude.
23 17 46 11
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. Ya,if I am on a public street out Railfanning and I don't care who it is that tell me to leave I will tell them to [censored] off. Allan.
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 The most rude experience I have had with a railfan was in 1979 at Edelstein Hill, just west of Chilicothe, Il. on the ATSF. The TPW was hosting 765 the Nickle Plate Berkshire for weekend trips. A carload of buddies drove to Peoria and during a lull we drove to Edelstein. A very well know railfan, tons of pictures published over the years was there...and let everyone know who he was. He then proceeded to take out a saw and cut down a small tree (3" diameter) that was in his view. Is it any wonder that that area is now fenced off and posted "No Trespassing"? Can you believe the nerve of the owners? Keeping railfans off of their property? Tisk, Tisk. ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon Well here's my awful RR employee story: This RR guy comes to pick me up at my house at like 9 AM to show me around the yard and areas he works, pet a locomotive and meet the folks he works with, have lunch and even go see thye circus train......Can you believe that...9AM!!! The nerve..... Dan
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Chris... Dont blink! Daniel... You forgot the beginning of that section of the GCOR.... 1.6 Conduct Employees must not be: Careless of the safety of themselves or others Negligent Insubordinate Dishonest Immoral Quarrelsome or Discourteous Seems you left out the first few lines, most importantly the one about safety of themselves, and others...you fall into the "others" category. Negligent...means I can’t turn a blind eye to your trespassing. Insubordinate...I have a standing General Order to report any trespasser, any person acting suspicious, and any person taking photos of railroad equipment, tracks, bridges, structures and employees...guess I have no choice but to report you now, wouldn’t want to violate the GCOR and be insubordinate and ignore a General Order, would I... Ed[:D]
Pump
QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1 train junky you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .
QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098 QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1 train junky you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens . YOu make it sound as if I need permission even if I am not on railroad property! We have a right to take the pictures, you have a right not be encroached upon. So unless a railfan is trespassing, they may take as many pictures as they want.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nikoncraig Chris, I read your experience at Galesburg and the fellow that had to get that "perfect" shot, well you may have run into those, " PROFESSIONAL RAILFANS." Craig S. Cloud
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
QUOTE: Originally posted by trainboyH16-44 Remember, ALWAYS wave to the engineer, up here I always get a nice friendly wave back, once he opened the window in -20 just to wave at me! I love Canada.... Matthew
QUOTE: Originally posted by exPalaceDog QUOTE: Originally posted by trainboyH16-44 Remember, ALWAYS wave to the engineer, up here I always get a nice friendly wave back, once he opened the window in -20 just to wave at me! I love Canada.... Matthew You might want to think twice about that advice. It is hard for an engineer to know whether someone is trying to wave or trying to throw a rock at the engine. Have fun
USAF TSgt C-17 Aircraft Maintenance Flying Crew Chief & Flightline Avionics Craftsman
QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098 QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1 train junky you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens . YOu make it sound as if I need permission even if I am not on railroad property! We have a right to take the pictures, you have a right not be encroached upon. So unless a railfan is trespassing, they may take as many pictures as they want. Lotus - I am always amused when someone says they have the "right to take pictures". Please show me where that right is published in the law. It isn't in the U.S. Constitution, nor is it in the Constitution of any state that I am aware of. Also, such a right is not granted by staute. The simple fact is that you have a qualified right to take photographs given to you under the First Amendment. Notice I said qualified. Our rights to free speech are delineated by the Supreme Court depending upon the type of forum involved and the type of speech. For example a public forum such as a street corner or public park is held to have the least restriction while military bases, and industries (Such as Railroads) are held to be private forums where speech can be completely restricted. Other areas such as shopping malls and commercial areas are deemed semi-public forums and have a middle level of restriction. Also, the type of speech is subject to analysis. For example, dangerous speech such as that which incites violence can be completely restricted (note that there are even more restrictions on speech of this type since 9-11). More customary speech is less restricted and political speech is particularly protected. So, as you can see, you don't have an absolute right to take photos on even public property. I haven't even gotten into the possibilities of civil lawsuits based upon use of photos of people without their permission which is a completely separate area of the law concerning individual privacy. It is always better to use courtesy and caution, than it is to assert a "right" which in fact is not absolute. LC
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Yes, we do have a GO stating just that. It is for the PTRA, although I would guess most other railroads have something similar. GN and GO, (General notices and General orders) are issued under the name and signature of our Superintendent. This one makes no distinction between a photographers being on property or not...it says "All persons photographing ...." Reason being the nature of a lot of our cargo and the specific location of our yards, smack dab in the middle of a bunch of refineries. This GO does not make it illegal to take photos. .It does require us to report anyone doing so.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
QUOTE: Originally posted by NARguy If you come north to Canada, don't make me "unite to protect the company's interests" and have your***hauled off the property in the back of a police car. I will truly enjoy it. CN and CP both expect us to turn in any and all trespassers. "Access to the workplace" comes to mind, and YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY! Obviously there is some kind of attitude problem going on here if you get your kicks from turning in railroaders while they are doing their jobs. I suspect that particular GCOR rule is meant to cover passenger service, not some poor bloke pounding the lead in freight only territory. Stay away from my rail yard, and don't tell a railroader how to do his job.
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard Jordan, Yes, we do have a GO stating just that. It is for the PTRA, although I would guess most other railroads have something similar. GN and GO, (General notices and General orders) are issued under the name and signature of our Superintendent. This one makes no distinction between a photographers being on property or not...it says "All persons photographing ...." Reason being the nature of a lot of our cargo and the specific location of our yards, smack dab in the middle of a bunch of refineries. This GO does not make it illegal to take photos. .It does require us to report anyone doing so. The RR cops do have the right and duty to check out anyone taking pictures. They don’t have the right to stop you from doing so legally, but they can check you out. They can not confiscate your camera or film, (you own both the film and, depending on what you were taking photos of, the images on it) with out a court order, which they can not get unless your were breaking the law while taking said photos. If you were trespassing when taking the photos, they still have to get a court order, they can’t just grab your camera and remove and destroy the film. Our legal system still operates under the presumption of innocence; they have to prove criminal intent on your part…which is why most of them just ask you to leave. If you persist, or argue, they can issue you a citation, and depending on your actions from that point on, arrest you if you fail to comply with their instruction to leave. Lotus, It might not hurt to ask a yardmaster or a trainmaster for permission, (see above) most wouldn’t mind, some might give you even more access that you expect. As for your right to photograph, a lot depends on the venue the photograph is taken in... a “public” or a "private" setting, and ownership of the image and ownership of the contents in the image. Believe it or not, you "own" the right to your face and any images of it! Let’s say you and a friend are out shooting photos and you friend takes a nice shot of you against a great backdrop...your face is clearly seen and easy to identify... If your friend publishes that photo in a travel magazine, on the web, or in any way "sells" that image and they did not get your written permission to do so, they have broken the law. That would be a photo taken in a private venue, the image of your face is your property,(the film is theirs) to sell or not sell. If you signed a photographers waiver, then you assigned the right to that image, and that image only, to the person taking the photo, they now own that image of your face and are free to do with it as they please, and use it in any manner they like, unless otherwise specified in the waiver. Same place, same photographer, but instead you are part of a group walking miles to raise funds for your favorite charity....now, because you are appearing in public for the express intention of being noticed, (you are performing in public for a fee and to attract attention to the charity) and because you have associated yourself with a group with the same purpose, you no longer own exclusive rights to any image of your face taken in that setting only. That would be a public venue, and an instance where you are performing in public and should expect to be photographed, by both private citizens and professional photographers. Ever notice that the photographs in Trains magazine rarely include the face of the crew, and the few times it does, you can’t really identify them? And those photos that do show them clearly, or anyone else for that matter, are sure to have a photographer’s waiver and permission to publish, in writing, somewhere in Kalambach's files. The courts have ruled that some jobs or professions, by their very nature, encourage photography, and those people who hold said jobs can not expect a right to private ownership of their face...one that comes to mind easily would be the President of the US, and his family. Because he accepted, in fact, sought out such a high profile job, one that involves numerous public appearances, he has, according to the courts, given up exclusive ownership to his image. In other words, the face of the President belongs to us, the people of the United States... Same thing applies to performers, rock bands, and comedians on stage, any person who puts themselves in a public venue, if their job requires public appearance, then you have the right to photograph them, and do as you wish with the image. I, on the other hand, am a private citizen, do not put myself in a public venue, and have a right to expect my privacy not to be intruded upon. I still own my face, because I do not place myself in a public venue for the express purpose of being noticed. Because I perform my job on private property, you do not have the right to take my photo, and publish it anywhere in any form with out my written permission. Take my profile photo...I own it. It is here for the express use on this forum only; no one may copy it and use it anywhere else, with out my permission. You might assume this is a public venue, after all, its a forum open to the public, but in fact, it is not...this is a semi-private venue, open to those that join, and any images used here are for the express use of the members only, i.e. the photo is there only for the enjoyment (or not) of the members of Trains.com. Now take railroads....because it is impossible to erect walls around them, they appear to be a public venue, but they are not, they are private property. The courts have ruled that, because the railroads paint their name or logo on the locomotives, they are engaged in a form of advertising, in that they want you, the general public, to notice their locomotives and railcars, and have applied those logos in an attempt to attract your attention...there by placing those items in a public venue. The courts, in an attempt to protect my right to privacy, have ruled that my actions can determine whether I am in a public or private venue. If I am sitting in the locomotive, minding my own business and performing my job, or if I am walking down a switching lead or in an industry, going about my normal daily duties as a conductor on private property, I am considered to be in a private venue. On the other hand, if I step out on the front porch of the locomotive, and wave at you as we go by, then I am intentionally placing myself in a public venue, and you can take all the photos you want. You can’t publish or sell them, unless I give you permission to do so, but you can take said photos for your own private collection and enjoyment. Ever notice a photo credit line that states,”From the private collection of….” Rarely will you see a face in those photos, and if you do, bet on the photographer having had to find the person and obtain a waiver. The courts have even ruled that how you, the photographer, present yourself can determine if a photo is one intended for public consumption or not. If you go about dressed in everyday clothes, as a private citizen, and carry a camera taking photos, then you are considered to be taking photos for your” private collection”. If, on the other hand, you are employed by ABC news, and are wearing id or a ABC News tee shirt or in any way presenting your self as a professional photographer, you have three cameras slung on your shoulder, carring a battery pack and a camera junk bag, in other words, it is obvious that you take photos for a living, then you are considered to be a public or professional photographer, and anyone who places them selves in a position to be photographed by you should expect such photos to be used in a public manner, with written their permission. Most professional photographers have two collections of photos…those taken in the course of their job, or their public collection, and those taken for their personal enjoyment only…private photos of places, people and such, never intended for publication. Your collection of train photos is a private collection, unless you took the photo with the express intend of publishing it, which then requires you to obtain permission from those persons that appear and can be identified from that image, which then places the photo in a public collection. Because wabash is performing his normal duties as a private employee on private property, he has the right to have his privacy to be respected. As long as he does not place himself in a public venue, or through his actions give you permission, you don’t have the right to take his photograph and use it in any manner, unless you get his permission in writing to do so, which seems very unlikely! Ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29 Ahh, but allow me also to point out that if the bathroom has windows, and I take a picture of you in there through the window, because of the window, you don't have a reasonable expectation to privacy. Similarly with locomotive cabs, and houses (lawyers talk about "plainsight"). -Daniel Parks
QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098 Why after he clarifed it do you still misunderstand what he said? Do we need three posts after Ed has made it clear what he means? I think he meant, if someone gets a picture throught the window of a loco cab.
QUOTE: Originally posted by PigFarmer1 QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29 Ahh, but allow me also to point out that if the bathroom has windows, and I take a picture of you in there through the window, because of the window, you don't have a reasonable expectation to privacy. Similarly with locomotive cabs, and houses (lawyers talk about "plainsight"). -Daniel Parks Using this ridiculous argument a peeping Tom could justify his crime.
QUOTE: Originally posted by glennbob Using this ridiculous argument a peeping Tom could justify his crime.
QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29 Honest to goodness, this is the most purile topic I've ever been on. Firstly, while we're all pretending to be lawyers, if I'm on public property, and there is a window, then whatever I can see through that window with my eyes is fair game to take a picture of while on on private property. Now, all you people are going to say I'm some sort of pervert for this bathroom thing. The point is that a crew in a locomotive cab has no more expectation of privacy through their FRA-glazed windows than a car driver on a freeway. I would like to thank James for sticking up for me. I owe you one. I would also like to thank Ed, Mr. Hemphill and everyone else who has remained reasonable. Sincerely, Daniel Parks
QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear So think about that the next time you want to take a photo of a railroad employee. LC
QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29 Dear LimitedClear, Any pictures I take from public property are fair game. According to the supreme court, this includes military installations until I am asked not to. Everything else is A-okay. It is the responsibility of the citizen to not become a railroader if he or she does not want railfans taking pictures of him or her. Sincerely and respectfully, Daniel Parks
QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29 Dear LimitedClear, Any pictures I take from public property are fair game. According to the supreme court, this includes military installations until I am asked not to. Everything else is A-okay. It is the responsibility of the citizen to not become a railroader if he or she does not want railfans taking pictures of him or her. Sincerely and respectfully, Daniel Parks OK, lets take this from a more realistic perspective. Suppose some sleazey photographer sets up his camera in the middle of your front yard, and he's just banging away taking pictures, through your windows. You go out and tell him to stop, and he tells you some line trying to convince you that it's "OK" for him to continue. You tell him that it's NOT ok, you want him to stop, and point out that he is trespassing on your property, and you want him to leave. He moves back 12 feet to the public sidewalk, sets the camera back up, thumbs his nose at you, and defiantly states that there is nothing you can do to stop him now, because he is within his rights. Just how diplomatic are you going to fell the need to be in the face of such an antagonistic attitude? O mean think about it, here this guy is at your place, trying to convince you that he's in charge, and there's not a thing you can do about it. (that is what thhis thread is about, the response of the employee, not the debate of the laws as written) I'll say this much, if some squirrely little dingus came up to my place with that kind of attitude, he'd have an awful embarrassing time explaining how his camera got shoved so far up where the sun don't shine... that's for sure [:D]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie Let me see if I am following this: As a railfan, I need to be sure Millie is packed with a camera, no film, peek in no windows, except bathroom ones and only with one eye, carry an unarmed armament, a bible and be sure my lawyer is with me at all times! I think I got it - and just in time for this weekend's train watching! Mook
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon I prefer the Book of Armaments 1:1....
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie Let me see if I am following this: As a railfan, I need to be sure Millie is packed with a camera, no film, peek in no windows, except bathroom ones and only with one eye, carry an unarmed armament, a bible and be sure my lawyer is with me at all times! I think I got it - and just in time for this weekend's train watching! Mook Is Millie the name of your car?
QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29 Dear LimitedClear, Please take a look at this: http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf Most sincerely, Daniel Parks
QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29 Dear LimitedClear, The first ammendment also, by default replies to state and local laws. Of course, you are right, common sense should always be followed. PEOPLE, ALWAYS BE CALM, POLITE, and USE COMMON SENSE. Sincerely, Daniel Parks
QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear So think about that the next time you want to take a photo of a railroad employee. LC The amazing thing about this conversation is that the ones bellyaching the most defiantly are also the ones to have had unpleasant encounters with the railroads, Coincidence? I suspect not... [;)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon I prefer the Book of Armaments 1:1.... If thou cannot reason with thy foe, use all reasonable means and then some, to smite him into the ground.
QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon I prefer the Book of Armaments 1:1.... If thou cannot reason with thy foe, use all reasonable means and then some, to smite him into the ground. Think I saw in the footnotes a referral to "A Smith & Wesson trumps four aces"....I am so-ooooo not worthy! Kudos Dan! [bow][bow][bow]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan Don't you need a restraining order of some sort in order to enforce no photography rules of private property from public property? Also, if you are to pleed that you are immune some how of being prosecuted for taking pictures, don't you have to be a licenced journalist/ press in order for that excuse to work?
QUOTE: Originally posted by rgroeling I am just wondering, why do some railroaders (not all of them, some) get so mad when you take pics of their train..
QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates QUOTE: Originally posted by rgroeling I am just wondering, why do some railroaders (not all of them, some) get so mad when you take pics of their train.. Maybe they are ashamed, because they have lowest seniority and always get stuck with the creaky old EMD's cause the senior guys always grab the GE's for themselves?... [}:)] But, my personal bet is that they are not mad about the photos, they are mad about the snotty, defiant attitudes of the photographer telling them what the score is.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie Let me see if I am following this: As a railfan, I need to be sure Millie is packed with a camera, no film, peek in no windows, except bathroom ones and only with one eye, carry an unarmed armament, a bible and be sure my lawyer is with me at all times! I think I got it - and just in time for this weekend's train watching! Mook Is Millie the name of your car? Yes - we have two - and rather than say old or new - I just named her. It is a Buick Century - hence the name Millenium "Millie".....
QUOTE: Originally posted by NARguy OK. It's time to lock this one and move on. Bergie?
QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear So think about that the next time you want to take a photo of a railroad employee. LC The amazing thing about this conversation is that the ones bellyaching the most defiantly are also the ones to have had unpleasant encounters with the railroads, Coincidence? I suspect not... [;)] and teens for the most part.....oh to be half as smart as I was then.....
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard I failed to see that between the black and white of my then narrow and limited experiences that the world was really full of a lot, and I mean a lot, of gray. Now, 30 years later, I have something I didn’t have as an 18 year old, the ability to see in gray, and to place myself in the position of another person, and try to see things as they would, whether I agree with them or not. Ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan I can still be sued for doing it..........................?????? Help me out here...........[%-)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Lone Byrd only one time a csx train stopped not too far from I was standing a crew menber shouted out rudely "Put that camera down You can't be [censored] recording THIS train!" But i was not listening to the crew member that was rude and continued recording elsewhere.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan WOW........the U.S really needs some tort law reform in terms of criteria to take action in court. Not being an American so I have to ask you; don't you get sick of hearing of rediculous excuses to sue?
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill James: To repeat my post from 13 October: 1. You generally have the right to take photographs while you're standing on public property of anything you can reasonably see from public property. Public property usually does not include parking lots (even of public venues), station platforms, or the like. Parks, streets, and sidewalks are public property. 2. Photographs used for journalistic or educational purposes or personal use DO NOT require the consent of the person being photographed. Photos used for commercial purposes (just about every other use in which money changes hands or a product is sold) DO require the consent of the person being photographed. 3. If someone says you cannot take photos from public property, feel free to escalate as far as you want.
QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates The solution (as always) is that the trains need louder horns...[oX)] If engineers had sufficiently loud horns at their disposal, they could simply blow their horns at these intrusive beligerants, and either make the leave , or go deaf..[:-,]
QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates If engineers had sufficiently loud horns at their disposal, they could simply blow their horns at these intrusive beligerants, and either make the leave , or go deaf..[:-,]
QUOTE: Originally posted by tarnett If I am ever out shooting pictures along the railroad and someone tells me to get out of "their" spot because they are a "professional railfan", my response will be, "I'm a professional***kicker, wanna do some business?"! T.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098 I think the show is over.
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