Have You had a Rude Railfan-Railroader Experience?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

Dear LimitedClear,
Any pictures I take from public property are fair game. According to the supreme court, this includes military installations until I am asked not to. Everything else is A-okay. It is the responsibility of the citizen to not become a railroader if he or she does not want railfans taking pictures of him or her.

Sincerely and respectfully,
Daniel Parks

Mr. Parks -

What concerns me is not so much what you do, it is the impression you are leaving on other impressionable people on this forum who may follow your dangerously wrong and unlawful advice. I urge those of you out there to use the rules of reason, use the common sense you were given. Most times you will be within the law. I am not aware of any U.S. Supreme Court decision that gives any specific right to take pictures from any property. There is a great deal of law out there that restricts all manner of activities on private property and more law still that governs the privacy of individuals from both government and individual intrusion. Don't count on the First Amendment to shield you from everything. The First Amendment controls the behavior of the government ONLY, and does not affect the rights of individuals or companies that could result in some nasty wake up calls in civil or criminal court.

LC

[Anonymous]

Dear LimitedClear,
The first ammendment also, by default replies to state and local laws.

Of course, you are right, common sense should always be followed.

PEOPLE, ALWAYS BE CALM, POLITE, and USE COMMON SENSE.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

Dear LimitedClear,
Please take a look at this:
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Most sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

I prefer the Book of Armaments 1:1....

I sort of like the book of EMD Gearing Ratios 27:98 [:)][:D][8D].

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Let me see if I am following this:

As a railfan, I need to be sure Millie is packed with a camera, no film, peek in no windows, except bathroom ones and only with one eye, carry an unarmed armament, a bible and be sure my lawyer is with me at all times!

I think I got it - and just in time for this weekend's train watching!

Mook

Is Millie the name of your car?

Yes - we have two - and rather than say old or new - I just named her. It is a Buick Century - hence the name Millenium "Millie".....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

Dear LimitedClear,
Please take a look at this:
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

Most sincerely,
Daniel Parks

READ IT CAREFULLY. NOTHING IN THIS DOCUMENT CONFLICTS WITH WHAT I HAVE ALREADY SAID.

LC

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

Dear LimitedClear,
The first ammendment also, by default replies to state and local laws.

Of course, you are right, common sense should always be followed.

PEOPLE, ALWAYS BE CALM, POLITE, and USE COMMON SENSE.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

How does the First Amendment apply to you taking pictures of a train or railroad employees? All it says is what the government cannot do.....I don't see where it says anything about your right to take a picture, unless you are construing the freedom of speech or press to that end.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


As far as military bases go. Most will have a sign on the fence that says photography not permitted. Ergo, not allowed. Ignorance is not a defense.

Dan

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear
So think about that the next time you want to take a photo of a railroad employee.

LC

The amazing thing about this conversation is that the ones bellyaching the most defiantly are also the ones to have had unpleasant encounters with the railroads,

Coincidence? I suspect not... [;)]

and teens for the most part.....oh to be half as smart as I was then.....

[mudchicken]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

I prefer the Book of Armaments 1:1....

If thou cannot reason with thy foe, use all reasonable means and then some, to smite him into the ground.

Think I saw in the footnotes a referral to "A Smith & Wesson trumps four aces"....I am so-ooooo not worthy! Kudos Dan!

[bow][bow][bow]

[chad thomas]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

I prefer the Book of Armaments 1:1....

If thou cannot reason with thy foe, use all reasonable means and then some, to smite him into the ground.

Think I saw in the footnotes a referral to "A Smith & Wesson trumps four aces"....I am so-ooooo not worthy! Kudos Dan!

[bow][bow][bow]

Well then, Deal me in on that hand. My .44's ready to rock and roll. It doesn't get much excerscise now that I'm livin in the city.[;)]

[Junctionfan]

Don't you need a restraining order of some sort in order to enforce no photography rules of private property from public property? Also, if you are to pleed that you are immune some how of being prosecuted for taking pictures, don't you have to be a licenced journalist/ press in order for that excuse to work?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Don't you need a restraining order of some sort in order to enforce no photography rules of private property from public property? Also, if you are to pleed that you are immune some how of being prosecuted for taking pictures, don't you have to be a licenced journalist/ press in order for that excuse to work?

No on all counts.

LC

[Anonymous]

I am just wondering, why do some railroaders (not all of them, some) get so mad when you take pics of their train.. Wouldn't it be nice to know that someone takes such an interest in what you are doing that they want to photogrpah it...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rgroeling

I am just wondering, why do some railroaders (not all of them, some) get so mad when you take pics of their train..

Maybe they are ashamed, because they have lowest seniority and always get stuck with the creaky old EMD's cause the senior guys always grab the GE's for themselves?... [}:)]

But, my personal bet is that they are not mad about the photos, they are mad about the snotty, defiant attitudes of the photographer telling them what the score is.

[Anonymous]

But I like creaky old EMDs... I think they are cool

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by rgroeling

I am just wondering, why do some railroaders (not all of them, some) get so mad when you take pics of their train..

Maybe they are ashamed, because they have lowest seniority and always get stuck with the creaky old EMD's cause the senior guys always grab the GE's for themselves?... [}:)]

But, my personal bet is that they are not mad about the photos, they are mad about the snotty, defiant attitudes of the photographer telling them what the score is.

Okay CN Guy.[|)]

[Anonymous]

[:D][:D][^][^][8D][:)][:)][:P][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

You remember!!!!

[Anonymous]

OK. It's time to lock this one and move on. Bergie?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Let me see if I am following this:

As a railfan, I need to be sure Millie is packed with a camera, no film, peek in no windows, except bathroom ones and only with one eye, carry an unarmed armament, a bible and be sure my lawyer is with me at all times!

I think I got it - and just in time for this weekend's train watching!

Mook

Is Millie the name of your car?

Yes - we have two - and rather than say old or new - I just named her. It is a Buick Century - hence the name Millenium "Millie".....

Our *middle* cat would be proud!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NARguy

OK. It's time to lock this one and move on. Bergie?

Lock it? why, no one is being nasty.... Such a control fixation for somone having only 18 posts...[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NARguy

OK. It's time to lock this one and move on. Bergie?

What? just a joke....[:I]

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NARguy

OK. It's time to lock this one and move on. Bergie?

Relax, it's just a little inside fun between some of us. Now let's get back to the debate.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheAntiGates

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear
So think about that the next time you want to take a photo of a railroad employee.

LC

The amazing thing about this conversation is that the ones bellyaching the most defiantly are also the ones to have had unpleasant encounters with the railroads,

Coincidence? I suspect not... [;)]

and teens for the most part.....oh to be half as smart as I was then.....

As politely as possible,
So are you suggesting that James and I wait to state opinions for another 25 years, when we turn 40 and our opinions instantaneously become worthy? Better yet, since we're just "teenagers" are we even allowed to have opinions? I guess I should go check the penal code of California on "Opinions held by a Minor."

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

I think I should re-title this thread "Have You had a Rude Forum Member-Forum Member Experience?"!!!![:D][:)][:-,][swg][:)][8D]

[edblysard]

No Daniel,
You are perfectly entitled to have an opinion, in fact, encouraged to have one.

But it might be the fact that after several people, who have had a lot more experience than you, all of whom have gone out of their way to explain why your concept of "rights" is flawed, you still insist on rationalizing your stand and stating your opinion in a somewhat, well, immature manner.

Look at the post above, rather smart*ssed and a little self serving, isn’t it....

Heck, you had the former editor of Trains magazine, myself, and Limited clear all trying to help you, and you insisted in refusing to listen or acknowledge what we were saying.

Man, you got free advice from an attorney, and that’s a small miracle in itself!

I remember being a teenager, and at 18, I was bullet proof, immortal and absolutely certain on almost all things...the world was easy to manage; every thing was in black or white, good or bad, true or false.

If I had a "right" to do something, I was almost fanatical in defending that right, whether it was truly a right, or simply something I perceived as one.

And I was just as determined to stamp out the wrongs in the world and I was in defending the things I saw as right.

Things were either good, or not.

I failed to see that between the black and white of my then narrow and limited experiences that the world was really full of a lot, and I mean a lot, of gray.

Now, 30 years later, I have something I didn’t have as an 18 year old, the ability to see in gray, and to place myself in the position of another person, and try to see things as they would, whether I agree with them or not.

The ability to look at an issue, be it the right to take photos, or the right own a handgun, all the way to who will sit on the US Supreme Court, from both sides,
and then form an opinion, based not only on the black and white of the issue, but the vast gray area in-between, where most people really live, now lets me realize that, although I might feel strongly on a particular issue, and be certain that my opinion is correct and theirs is not, I can now understand why they hold that opinion, as opposed to just being certain they are wrong.

What all this boils down to is that, because some of us have had more experience than you, solely because we have managed to survive longer than you, not because older is smarter, but because the people who have been replying to you have managed, between them, to have run a nation wide magazine, be an attorney, locomotive engineer, work for their state attorney generals office, manage several business, own a few, one of them is now in charge of rebuilding the Iraq railway, one of them is a navy pilot and now in charge of teaching recon flying to "newbies", years and years of hard earned experience and knowledge between them all, lots of working in the gray area, and you insist in ignoring all of their experience and viewing this as a black and white issue...with you certain that you are the white knight, righteously defending the "right" you perceive, while the rest of us are the black knights, bent on denying you... the whole time, your knee deep in the gray, and unaware of it.

Hope you don’t press your concept of your right to take any photo you want from "public" property, because you will, at some point, find someone else just as certain as yourself that you are "wrong", and you will end up on the losing end of a very expensive civil lawsuit.

Look at it this way, none of us here "win" anything by convincing you that we are right and you are wrong...no one gets any points, makes any money, saves any lives or gets the girl...so why would we go through all this trouble to explain anything to you, unless we valued your presence here, and wanted to keep you out of trouble?

Might it be that some of us have already been there and done that, and wanted to save you the hassle of learning it the hard way?

Ed

[SealBook27]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

I failed to see that between the black and white of my then narrow and limited experiences that the world was really full of a lot, and I mean a lot, of gray.

Now, 30 years later, I have something I didn’t have as an 18 year old, the ability to see in gray, and to place myself in the position of another person, and try to see things as they would, whether I agree with them or not.



Ed

Many thanks Ed, and let me add a big AMEN. I've been trying to teach this to people most of my life.

I dearly wish I could remember who taught me this decades ago, but it proved to be a very valuable lesson in life. Recognizing the gray areas and seeing things from others points of view has enabled me to work with just about anyone.

[Anonymous]

So let me see if I get this straight now, as the gray area seems to be do I have a "right to take photos, or do the railroaders have a "right" to tell me not to. So If I am public property, usually there will be no problem since only a small minority of railroaders think that it is a problem to take pictures of there train, I am sure most would love to be driving the train that wins some photo contest. If someone, say a railroad worker, tells me I can't take pictures of the train from the public road that parallels the train yard. What should I do? Does he have the right to tell me not to? Should I phone the yardmaster, or someone and just make sure they don't have a beef then go take some more pictures. What about the police telling me, since they don't always represent the railroad’s want on the matter? Of course you should always be polite.

I am not trying to start an argument here, I was just under the impression from what I had read about the law, that you had the ability to take a picture of trains from public property, assuming the train tacks don't have any signs saying you can't. You couldn't sell a picture of a railroad worker without his approval, like a celebrity, assuming he was recognizable in the picture. It is not a matter of rights to take the picture, but who has the right to stop you. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, so I don't make any mistakes in the future.

[dharmon]

Well put Ed....that was exactly the point.

Dan

[Anonymous]

I am a locomotive engineer and you 'foamers' can take all the pictures you want. One bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch.

[Anonymous]

I'ev been trying to figure out a way to jump into this. It came to me last night. Think of all the actors and actresses and musicians who try to protect their rights to privacy, either in their homes (photos of actresses topless lounging by their pool AT HOME taken with long distance cameras), or in public, when they're out trying to have dinner or go to a club. Supposedly there are even pictures of Princess Di dying in a car. I guess my point is to be really careful because you ARE taking pictures of someone who might not want you to take them. Respect them as a fellow human, not a railroader, or an actor, or a baseball player, or whatever.

I still think if you're trying to "buy" trouble, you'll find it.

Now, add to Ed's illustrious list of people who are trying to offer experienced advice, a slightly overweight special ed Engli***eacher.

Oh, NAR guy, asking Bergie to lock a thread like this... come on, we have these talks all the time. The last one on the mighty PC&N railroad died on it's own. This one will too.


mike