Have You had a Rude Railfan-Railroader Experience?

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone.

I just wanted to remind those railfans that have had dealings with mean employees that you have one other recourse:

Employee discourteousy is a GCOR infraction:
1.6 Conduct
Employees must not be:

5. Immoral
6. Quarrelsome
or
7. Discourteous


1.9 Respect of Railroad Company
Employees must behave in such a way that the railroad will not be criticized for their actions.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

Ya,if I am on a public street out Railfanning and I don't care who it is that tell me to leave I will tell them to [censored] off. Allan.

[Anonymous]

I like the GCOR infraction 1.6 the best hit em with their own rules..[^]

[Anonymous]

What a good idea :i just made a print out of the GCOR infraction 1.6 Conduct ,and will keep a copy in my camera bag from know on>>>>[B)][angel][bow]glennbob

[Anonymous]

Hello 06archerd if you read this you are paying attention to the forum and reading all the postings have fun railfanning[bow][bow]

[Anonymous]

NO, none comes to mind at this time.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainjunky29

Hello everyone.

I just wanted to remind those railfans that have had dealings with mean employees that you have one other recourse:

Employee discourteousy is a GCOR infraction:
1.6 Conduct
Employees must not be:

5. Immoral
6. Quarrelsome
or
7. Discourteous


1.9 Respect of Railroad Company
Employees must behave in such a way that the railroad will not be criticized for their actions.

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

this is good to know and everyone should keep a copy in your camera bag when railfanning glennbob

[mustanggt]

Back 2 years ago at north station I took a pic of an MBTA cab coach (to use as a detailing guide for a model which I sold off anyway) and got a "look" from a few Conductors.... They were real grouchy looks too. One of them said: "Put away the *** camera" ,so I did. And after I put it away they still gave me a dirty look. But you can't argue with these guys. They're just doing they're jobs to protect the station, even if they were a little rude.

[bbrant]

In 1994 I got some pics of a stopped CSX train in Pittsburgh. I stayed well away from the tracks when I was taking my pictures. For whatever reason when the train started to go the engineer was saying something to me. I can't read lips but I'm positive it wasn't a friendly "hello".

[Mookie]

I think the GCOR rule should apply to the public as well.

I also still think some railfans "cop a 'tude" and figure their presence with a camera should allow them to do as pleased.

I scared the daylights out of some poor maintenance worker, but even with a terrified look on his face, he still treated me with respect. (Yes I was on private property, but it wasn't railroad property and I only asked a question!)

So please don't think that a GCOR rule gives you the upper hand to treat property and people badly.

Don't be an "Ugly Railfan".....

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mustanggt

Back 2 years ago at north station I took a pic of an MBTA cab coach (to use as a detailing guide for a model which I sold off anyway) and got a "look" from a few Conductors.... They were real grouchy looks too. One of them said: "Put away the *** camera" ,so I did. And after I put it away they still gave me a dirty look. But you can't argue with these guys. They're just doing they're jobs to protect the station, even if they were a little rude.

But when someone tells you to put away your camera when your on public land is totaly wrong. Allan.

[Mookie]

There are rude people in every business. It doesn't mean you have to be rude back.

I think most railroad people are like anyone else - you have happy ones and grumpy ones. Mostly happy as in most jobs. But if you go down the tracks and see people deliberately trying to and sometimes succeeding in killing themselves and trying to include you in it, or people shooting at you with rifles or vandalizing your freight cars, and add in just a tad of tresspassing - (cuz no one on this forum would deliberately tresspass!) it would make me a little grumpy, too.

These people aren't out there to be entertaining or program directors. They are there to make the railroad safe for employees and public alike. So cut them some slack and mind your p's and q's and check the attitude at the door.

Mook

[Chris_S68]

hehehe
I'd like to be there when a railfan attempts to instruct an employee on the GCOR.

[edblysard]

Chris...
Dont blink!

Daniel...
You forgot the beginning of that section of the GCOR....


1.6 Conduct
Employees must not be:

Careless of the safety of themselves or others
Negligent
Insubordinate
Dishonest
Immoral
Quarrelsome
or
Discourteous


Seems you left out the first few lines, most importantly the one about safety of themselves, and others...you fall into the "others" category.

Negligent...means I can’t turn a blind eye to your trespassing.

Insubordinate...I have a standing General Order to report any trespasser, any person acting suspicious, and any person taking photos of railroad equipment, tracks, bridges, structures and employees...guess I have no choice but to report you now, wouldn’t want to violate the GCOR and be insubordinate and ignore a General Order, would I...

Ed[:D]

[dharmon]

Well here's my awful RR employee story:

This RR guy comes to pick me up at my house at like 9 AM to show me around the yard and areas he works, pet a locomotive and meet the folks he works with, have lunch and even go see thye circus train......Can you believe that...9AM!!! The nerve.....

Dan

[CShaveRR]

Ed--

I've said it before:

You da man!

[Mookie]

Dan - be glad it was Ed and not Mookie - she would have had you out of bed at 4 am....

[Anonymous]

Awwww, Ed. Why did you have to go bust this ding-a-ling's bubble with fact and reason. I think that I'll carry a copy of GCOR in my camera bag too.....Oh wait, I don't have a camera bag........I have a grip with a copy of GCOR in it. Oh well. This has gotta be in the top 5 stupid threads of all time!
Go ahead and fight fire with fire there Daniel. It'll go something like this......
-Hello T.M. XXXX
--Um, yes, I would like to report a rude employee
-O.K. Sir. Which company are you with? Was it a crew spotting your business?
--Well, um, no.....I'm a railfan.
-We're very sorry. I'll have a talk with them
Notice in this example the TM didn't bother asking what day, eng #, or what time. Why, because he won't give a rat's a**. Those guys are too busy chasing after us to care about this petty crap.

[DPD1]

I happen to be watching once while a derailment happened in a yard for a local shortline. It was pretty obvious to me they screwed up pretty bad. I was nowhere near being on their property when it happen. It was towards the back of the yard, which had a public city road running along the side of it. As I decided to leave, I figured I'd drive down that road to the back of the yard real fast, just to get a glance at the derailment. I took a quick look, then turned the car around to come back... Never even got out of the car. As I was driving back down the street, I see this guy in a pickup coming the opposite way, and with no warning, he abruptly turns into me head on and forces me to stop my car. I then realize it's a guy that works for the RR who I've seen before... Possibly their Trainmaster. He comes to the side of the car, and says "Do you need help?" or something to that effect. Which I thought was a funny thing to ask after being forced to stop by another vehicle. I said: "No... What are you doing man?" And just kind of looked at the guy like he was crazy. He looked at me for a few seconds, then stormed back into his truck and sped off. I knew that he knew his own guy had caused the derailment, so it wasn't an issue of security. I decided he simply was annoyed that someone was looking at their screw up. Being that I'm not a saint and have certainly lost my temper a few times in life, I decided to let it go. I think forcing someone off a public road because you don't like them looking at your business is a little off the deep end though.

Dave
-DPD Productions - Featuring the TrainTenna LP Gain RR Scanner Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/dpdp/

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Ya,if I am on a public street out Railfanning and I don't care who it is that tell me to leave I will tell them to [censored] off. Allan.

Allan,

Couple things...

1) I have yet to have a railroader approach me to chase me off of public property. By the way your posts are reading, this is happening to you quite a bit. Where on earth do you railfan at? I think I'll not go there.

2) Have you ever heard of the art of schmoozing? The term may have a slight negative connotation to it, but it basically means approaching a situation with tact and grace to persuade another party to assist you. This relates somewhat to what Mookie and Ed touched on. Carrying a little tact into a conversation, even if you are in the "right" can work wonders. Immediately yelling expletives at and shoving a tiny part of a big document to a railroader probably won't do much to help your cause.

Schmoozing has allowed me to have good experiences at the DMV of all places. Keep in mind that even DMV employees are humans too, and they have a lot of crud that they have to deal with every day.

I think as railfans, the scales are already tipped in our favor, anyways. I would guess that a large majority of railroaders are railfans, even if they are closet ones. Why else would they choose to work in a tough industry with bad hours and a moderate level of on-the-job danger? Chances are that if you approach any potential problem situations with a little tact, a peaceful, mutually beneficial understanding and/or solution could be achieved.

Just a suggestion from a former youngster (who once upon a time shared your "In Your Face" attitude). Good luck trackside!

[MP173]

The most rude experience I have had with a railfan was in 1979 at Edelstein Hill, just west of Chilicothe, Il. on the ATSF.

The TPW was hosting 765 the Nickle Plate Berkshire for weekend trips. A carload of buddies drove to Peoria and during a lull we drove to Edelstein.

A very well know railfan, tons of pictures published over the years was there...and let everyone know who he was. He then proceeded to take out a saw and cut down a small tree (3" diameter) that was in his view.

Is it any wonder that that area is now fenced off and posted "No Trespassing"?

Can you believe the nerve of the owners? Keeping railfans off of their property? Tisk, Tisk.

ed

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

The most rude experience I have had with a railfan was in 1979 at Edelstein Hill, just west of Chilicothe, Il. on the ATSF.

The TPW was hosting 765 the Nickle Plate Berkshire for weekend trips. A carload of buddies drove to Peoria and during a lull we drove to Edelstein.

A very well know railfan, tons of pictures published over the years was there...and let everyone know who he was. He then proceeded to take out a saw and cut down a small tree (3" diameter) that was in his view.

Is it any wonder that that area is now fenced off and posted "No Trespassing"?

Can you believe the nerve of the owners? Keeping railfans off of their property? Tisk, Tisk.

ed

Ed,

I remember a similar experience at Galesburg Railroad days one year. I'm not sure who the gentleman was, but I'm sure he was another of the "big" names. This was about 10 years ago, so I would've been 15 at the time. I was getting a picture of something, and the guy whistled at me, and then shooed me out of hi way. He was shooting Medium Format, and I generally try not to be be in other people's pix. I moved to a different spot, and he again did the same thing. I was a little perturbed, and went elsewhere.

Later in the evening, a shot was staged by the organizers with the Milw. Rd. 261, and the Zephyr from IRM (I think...this was awhile ago). This was a limited event, since it clogged up both mains in Galesburg. A half-circle photo line formed and all the railfans there were content to get their shots in the photo line...except this guy. He marches out in front of everyone's shot, and proceeds to take the only decent shots with the crews of the two special trains. He managed to perturb the whole railfan community present. Had I known who he was shooting for, I would have more than likely boycotted that magazine for a bit (my apologies to the Trains crowd if it was one of their's).

I still have issues with that day, and have tried to be vigilant of established Photo Lines and such ever since then. I avoid being in front of other camera's, even if it's a seven-year old with a one-time use camera, because I remember how it felt to be young and stepped on because of that fact.

Chris
Denver, CO

[PBenham]

I have had too many encounters with rude RR employees, Ya can't make make a jerk friendly, I'm no angel but I was right approximately half the time. The paranoid attitude of RR Police and SOME employees is only going to get worse. The next successful terrorist attack can only cut into our freedom some more, that folks, means a victory for them. And they cannot be defeated until we allow citizens to go about their affairs unfettered by Paranoid JERKS!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Well here's my awful RR employee story:

This RR guy comes to pick me up at my house at like 9 AM to show me around the yard and areas he works, pet a locomotive and meet the folks he works with, have lunch and even go see thye circus train......Can you believe that...9AM!!! The nerve.....

Dan

No donuts? Who do these people think they are?

I'd give up railfanning altogether if I was you.
mike

[Junctionfan]

Actually no; I do my best to not put myself in a position that they would care enough to come over. I tend err on the side of caution when it comes to areas I don't know is railroad property or not just because it is the wise thing to do.

As far as cameras go, I have had no problems. I have even taken pictures in a VIA train between St.Catharines and Toronto toward outside but I would imagine that is a norm-more so for folk on the Canadian or the Ocean though.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Chris...
Dont blink!

Daniel...
You forgot the beginning of that section of the GCOR....


1.6 Conduct
Employees must not be:

Careless of the safety of themselves or others
Negligent
Insubordinate
Dishonest
Immoral
Quarrelsome
or
Discourteous


Seems you left out the first few lines, most importantly the one about safety of themselves, and others...you fall into the "others" category.

Negligent...means I can’t turn a blind eye to your trespassing.

Insubordinate...I have a standing General Order to report any trespasser, any person acting suspicious, and any person taking photos of railroad equipment, tracks, bridges, structures and employees...guess I have no choice but to report you now, wouldn’t want to violate the GCOR and be insubordinate and ignore a General Order, would I...

Ed[:D]

Dear Mr. Blysard,
I am afraid that I must apologise for having posted in a hurry, and for not making my point clear.

I do not intend to suggest that anybody wave the GCOR in the face of a railroader. What I meant is that if a railfan is treated by a railroad employee in a manner not becoming of a professional of the company, to get his or her name and other pertinent information, and to write a letter either to the railroad or to a newspaper. The public does not know sections 1.3 and 1.6 of the General Code of Operating Rules, so if a letter is written to a newspaper about exceeding discourtesy, they should be made aware of such facts. Once again, I DO NOT mean that a railfan should talk back to a railroader by quoting GCOR.

If you were following your General Orders, and asked me to leave the property in a calm, professional manner, I will leave without hesitation. I understand that you have a job to do. You are a gentleman whose postings I have always respected, and if you will notice, in my topic, I said in the first line after "Hello everyone" that I was speaking of "mean employees."

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[UPTRAIN]

Its people of any kind that over react that burn my hide, they really need to fricken grow up.

[wabash1]

train junky

you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

train junky

you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .

YOu make it sound as if I need permission even if I am not on railroad property! We have a right to take the pictures, you have a right not be encroached upon. So unless a railfan is trespassing, they may take as many pictures as they want.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

train junky

you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .

YOu make it sound as if I need permission even if I am not on railroad property! We have a right to take the pictures, you have a right not be encroached upon. So unless a railfan is trespassing, they may take as many pictures as they want.

Lotus -

I am always amused when someone says they have the "right to take pictures". Please show me where that right is published in the law. It isn't in the U.S. Constitution, nor is it in the Constitution of any state that I am aware of. Also, such a right is not granted by staute.

The simple fact is that you have a qualified right to take photographs given to you under the First Amendment. Notice I said qualified. Our rights to free speech are delineated by the Supreme Court depending upon the type of forum involved and the type of speech.

For example a public forum such as a street corner or public park is held to have the least restriction while military bases, and industries (Such as Railroads) are held to be private forums where speech can be completely restricted. Other areas such as shopping malls and commercial areas are deemed semi-public forums and have a middle level of restriction.

Also, the type of speech is subject to analysis. For example, dangerous speech such as that which incites violence can be completely restricted (note that there are even more restrictions on speech of this type since 9-11). More customary speech is less restricted and political speech is particularly protected.

So, as you can see, you don't have an absolute right to take photos on even public property. I haven't even gotten into the possibilities of civil lawsuits based upon use of photos of people without their permission which is a completely separate area of the law concerning individual privacy.

It is always better to use courtesy and caution, than it is to assert a "right" which in fact is not absolute.

LC