Have You had a Rude Railfan-Railroader Experience?

[Anonymous]

Rights, Freedoms and Privledges: three words that have over the years been the sourse of either the greatest joy or the greatest heartbreak to those that love and practice them. I hope someone is listening --PL

[edblysard]

Daniel,
First off,
It’s just Ed...Mr. Blysard was my Dad[:D]

Second, I took no offense, but was pointing out that the "rules" both GCOR and Norac, are a two edged sword...they can cut both ways.

James,
If you think about it, you do indeed need Wabash1s permission to take his photo, at least a photo you would want to show to people.
If he sees you, and decides to "ruin" your photo, he can and will, not because he is mean, but because he has a personal and professional reason for not wanting his photo taken.
His professional reason is valid, and if you ask him, I am sure he will explain it...his personal reason is just that, personal.
But in the end, don’t you think it is better to have the cooperation of the people your photographing, instead of standing on your supposed "rights" and getting into an argument, which will guarantee that the rest of your photo will have to be clandestine?
After all, what if someone took your photograph, and you were unaware of it...and were picking your nose when they snapped your photo...you go home, log on to the computer, check out your favorite web site, and ta- da, there you are, in all your glory, pointing at your brain!


Daniel, just to give you something to think about...most of the "rules" don’t tell us what we have to do, they tell us what we cant do...the rest is up to us...

It doesn’t tell me how close to a main line switch I can get with my locomotive when I am in a siding...it tells me I cant foul the main....how close that is, well, that’s is up to me to decide....

It doesn’t tell me I have to be polite...it says I can’t be....

I can assume you have a current copy of the GCOR and Norac?

If not, look here...



http://www.railroadcontrols.com/gcor/
GCOR
http://thebecketts.com/images/NORAC%208th%20Edition%20NJT.pdf
Norac

Ed

[BudKarr]

I suspect that I am not necessarily clued in regarding the term "railfan." I have encountered all sorts of personalities in my rail travels, worldwide. Whether they fit in the category mentioned, I do not know.

There have been a few who risk personal encounters through absolute rude behavior either on the platform or on board the train. They seemingly have to always push ahead - rush for the seats - or talk over the sounds of the traveling train. I consider those behaviors as rude.

Rail employees have had no reason to exhibit rudeness in my direction, although in Europe, there have been times when the Customs people were rather short on patience when some passengers fumbled for their identification. The language barrier never presented itself as a problem to me whether in Europe or Asia - the overwhelming number spoke a degree of English. Although it helped greatly if one tried to pose the question in the native tongue. That is always respected, even if using an English-foreign language dictionary.

BK

[Anonymous]

Chris,
I read your experience at Galesburg and the fellow that had to get that "perfect" shot, well you may have run into those, " PROFESSIONAL RAILFANS."
Craig S. Cloud

[CopCarSS]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nikoncraig

Chris,
I read your experience at Galesburg and the fellow that had to get that "perfect" shot, well you may have run into those, " PROFESSIONAL RAILFANS."
Craig S. Cloud

Craig...I'm sure he was. With the exception of myself, I don't know many amateur railfans that shoot medium format. I tried looking around the magazines right after that trying to determine who he was, or who he was shooting for. I never saw the shot that spoiled everyone elses picture, so I never was able to figure it out.

To me, professionalism goes beyond having a press pass, a big camera and a big name. I shoot a lot of high school basketball out here, and I try to be aware of staying out of other people's shots as much as possible. The same holds true when I shot the Women's US Open down at Cherry Hills this year. I went on practice days when anyone could and did bring their cameras. Here again, wven though I was shooting with a 300mm f2.8 L IS (not the biggest in Canon's****nal, but enough to attract attention) I still did my best to avoid being in photos.

Professionalism, especially in a specialty hobby, means at least a modicum of courtesy. Railfans are a fairly tight knit bunch. I'm sure some people knew who this turkey was at Galesburg, and probably had a lot of the same feelings I did. He literally messed up 100s of peoples' photos. I usually don't hold grudges, but this one still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Thanks for the comments, and [#welcome] to the forum! Stop by the Diner and I'll buy you a cup of coffee, even if you do use that "other" camera brand! [:D][:p][}:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Well here's my awful RR employee story:

This RR guy comes to pick me up at my house at like 9 AM to show me around the yard and areas he works, pet a locomotive and meet the folks he works with, have lunch and even go see thye circus train......Can you believe that...9AM!!! The nerve.....

Dan

You mean he left out the fuel rack and the sand station? How could he? [;)]

[Anonymous]

People, people, we need to take a chill pill!

I posted some verbatim quotes from the General Code of Operating Rules primarily for the railfans of this forum to see (the railroaders already know their rules). I get flamed, broiled, and served in a delightful hollandaise sauce with seasonal veggies for doing so, then railroaders complain about railfans, railfans complain about railfans, railfans argue about constitutional rights, railroaders complain about railfans exercising constitutional rights, and enough flaming goes on to heat my house through winter (I live in southern California)!

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

MMM! Just reading this makes me think that you all need to take a chill pill (or MAYBE A WHOLE BOTTLE).
I am a railroader and a fan too!!!!!
The last thing that a Railroader wants is to have some foamer throwing qoutes from the GCOR in their face, are you just trying to make a bad situation worse? I can't believe that fans are thinking that they'd take copies along with them on shoots. Like Wabash1 I don't worlk under GCOR (they don't exist "down under").
Don't you need to get a signed disclaimer from a person before you publish a photo (I don't know US law), regardless of whether you are on Public or Private property? How can a Engineer tell whether you are taking a photo for your own collection or are going to submit it to a mag like trains.
WE don't have Railway Police in AUS...Train crews call Control (Dispatcher) and they call out the real police. And they don't like wasting their time. Believe me on that one...I found out the hard way at 17.
We all can remember a bad experience with Railroaders, but did you ever stop to think that they might have had one in return. Just south of Sydney (50 miles) lies a small town called Picton. A heritage listed station, beautiful box with Armstrong levers (some signals are still semaphores...in 2005). The point to all this was that nearly ten years ago a tour was being run to welcome a diesel back into service (after restoration {A GE / ALCO cab unit) and the train was pulled into the siding to let a ten wheeler take on water. People where just walking over both main tracks and when the tower operator asked several people to get back up on the platform, they told him to "Get F#@---". Nowadays Railfans aren't allowed within a mile of the place.
Can't everybody just get along?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

The most rude experience I have had with a railfan was in 1979 at Edelstein Hill, just west of Chilicothe, Il. on the ATSF.

The TPW was hosting 765 the Nickle Plate Berkshire for weekend trips. A carload of buddies drove to Peoria and during a lull we drove to Edelstein.

A very well know railfan, tons of pictures published over the years was there...and let everyone know who he was. He then proceeded to take out a saw and cut down a small tree (3" diameter) that was in his view.

Is it any wonder that that area is now fenced off and posted "No Trespassing"?

Can you believe the nerve of the owners? Keeping railfans off of their property? Tisk, Tisk.

ed

Hullihan's(sp?) Curve? a few more "bad" railfans finally broke the straw there 5-10 years back. littering, yelling, scared the poor old lady that lives there, threatened her, spun thier tires when they left, threw rocks all over her house.... The fence was up within a week. IIRC

there went one of the best shots in Chilli-Edelstien

[trainboyH16-44]

Remember, ALWAYS wave to the engineer, up here I always get a nice friendly wave back, once he opened the window in -20 just to wave at me! I love Canada....
Matthew

[exPalaceDog]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainboyH16-44

Remember, ALWAYS wave to the engineer, up here I always get a nice friendly wave back, once he opened the window in -20 just to wave at me! I love Canada....
Matthew

You might want to think twice about that advice. It is hard for an engineer to know whether someone is trying to wave or trying to throw a rock at the engine.

Have fun

[AztecEagle]

I used to live in Flatonia,Texas,and I was Railfanning at least a good 10 Years before trains Magazine discovered it.One Friday Night,I walked up to the Tower because I had the feeling that a Northbound Train was coming on the Shiner Branch.I sat down at side facing the Tracks when some Petty Official comes out and tells me "BOY!!(I was 29 at the time!!)YOU GET THE HELL OUTA HERE!!YOU AIN'T GOT NO D@MN BIDNESS AT THIS TOWER!!GIT ON OUTA HERE OR I'M CALLING THE COPS!!".So,I started walking towards the West and the side road that ran by it when he comes out again "I JUST CALLED THE COPS!!THEY'LL BE HERE IN ABOUT FIVE MINUTES!!",so I turned around and walked back towards town.Of course,the Cops never showed up.For the most part,the Crews at Tower 3 in Flatonia were usually friendly.In fact,I used to drink Beer with two retired Towermen pretty regullary.

[Anonymous]

John, do you ever still come down here to railfan? If so, have we met? I live in Schulenburg and do all of my railfanning in Flatonia.

Oh, and for the record, no, I've never had a bad railfan-railroader experience. I stay on my side of the road.

mike

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by exPalaceDog

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainboyH16-44

Remember, ALWAYS wave to the engineer, up here I always get a nice friendly wave back, once he opened the window in -20 just to wave at me! I love Canada....
Matthew

You might want to think twice about that advice. It is hard for an engineer to know whether someone is trying to wave or trying to throw a rock at the engine.

Have fun

I suppose it depends on the way the arm goes. If the arm goes from side to side-that is a wave, if the arm moves fast toward the engineer's direction-might be an airborne object enroute.[:D]

[wabash1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

train junky

you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .

YOu make it sound as if I need permission even if I am not on railroad property! We have a right to take the pictures, you have a right not be encroached upon. So unless a railfan is trespassing, they may take as many pictures as they want.

I will say this you dont need my permission to take pictures but if my picture is taken by your camera then i will go to the extra trouble and get the camera or the film. Trust me i will win.

[Anonymous]

Hmm! I would like to see you jump off the end of a train and stop me! Why can't I take pictures? I do have that right. Since, nobody has the right to steal my camera, or film.

[Jordan6]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Chris...
Dont blink!

Daniel...
You forgot the beginning of that section of the GCOR....


1.6 Conduct
Employees must not be:

Careless of the safety of themselves or others
Negligent
Insubordinate
Dishonest
Immoral
Quarrelsome
or
Discourteous


Seems you left out the first few lines, most importantly the one about safety of themselves, and others...you fall into the "others" category.

Negligent...means I can’t turn a blind eye to your trespassing.

Insubordinate...I have a standing General Order to report any trespasser, any person acting suspicious, and any person taking photos of railroad equipment, tracks, bridges, structures and employees...guess I have no choice but to report you now, wouldn’t want to violate the GCOR and be insubordinate and ignore a General Order, would I...

Ed[:D]

You seriously have a general order that says we have to report people taking photos of equipment and stuff?!! Is that a system or division general order? what number?

[adrianspeeder]

This thread is a good one...



Adrianspeeder

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

train junky

you also must remeber that where i work we dont use the gcor . you can wave at me what you like if you take a pic of me with out my permission your gonna lose either film or a camera. then go and report me. wont mean anything to me or my boss. I am not scared and i do work for the NS. In other words you show respect and most railroaders will show it back to you. but come off like you are god and wave rules that dont even apply or taken out of text . and tell them you have the right to do as you want . lets just say i hope you grow up before that happens .

YOu make it sound as if I need permission even if I am not on railroad property! We have a right to take the pictures, you have a right not be encroached upon. So unless a railfan is trespassing, they may take as many pictures as they want.

Lotus -

I am always amused when someone says they have the "right to take pictures". Please show me where that right is published in the law. It isn't in the U.S. Constitution, nor is it in the Constitution of any state that I am aware of. Also, such a right is not granted by staute.

The simple fact is that you have a qualified right to take photographs given to you under the First Amendment. Notice I said qualified. Our rights to free speech are delineated by the Supreme Court depending upon the type of forum involved and the type of speech.

For example a public forum such as a street corner or public park is held to have the least restriction while military bases, and industries (Such as Railroads) are held to be private forums where speech can be completely restricted. Other areas such as shopping malls and commercial areas are deemed semi-public forums and have a middle level of restriction.

Also, the type of speech is subject to analysis. For example, dangerous speech such as that which incites violence can be completely restricted (note that there are even more restrictions on speech of this type since 9-11). More customary speech is less restricted and political speech is particularly protected.

So, as you can see, you don't have an absolute right to take photos on even public property. I haven't even gotten into the possibilities of civil lawsuits based upon use of photos of people without their permission which is a completely separate area of the law concerning individual privacy.

It is always better to use courtesy and caution, than it is to assert a "right" which in fact is not absolute.

LC

So, should I go and bug the yardmaster before I take some shots of his crew boarding a train, or stop a train to ask the engineer? No, I do not see a restricted right to take pictures from public property. Basically I can encroach upon the railroads by trespassing, just as I can encroach on someone by disturbing the peace, which means we don't have total free speech, you can't yell fire in a crowded room. Now show me the law that enables some jerk to decide he doesn't want to be in my picture. Why can he encroach on me and take my film? The only reason we don't have total free speech is that it encroaches on someone else’s rights, or may be dangerous to our people; other than that I can say anything I want.

[Anonymous]

If you come north to Canada, don't make me "unite to protect the company's interests" and have your***hauled off the property in the back of a police car. I will truly enjoy it.

CN and CP both expect us to turn in any and all trespassers. "Access to the workplace" comes to mind, and YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY!

Obviously there is some kind of attitude problem going on here if you get your kicks from turning in railroaders while they are doing their jobs.

I suspect that particular GCOR rule is meant to cover passenger service, not some poor bloke pounding the lead in freight only territory.

Stay away from my rail yard, and don't tell a railroader how to do his job.

[edblysard]

Jordan,
Yes, we do have a GO stating just that.
It is for the PTRA, although I would guess most other railroads have something similar.
GN and GO, (General notices and General orders) are issued under the name and signature of our Superintendent.
This one makes no distinction between a photographers being on property or not...it says "All persons photographing ...."
Reason being the nature of a lot of our cargo and the specific location of our yards, smack dab in the middle of a bunch of refineries.
This GO does not make it illegal to take photos.
.It does require us to report anyone doing so.

The RR cops do have the right and duty to check out anyone taking pictures.

They don’t have the right to stop you from doing so legally, but they can check you out.

They can not confiscate your camera or film, (you own both the film and, depending on what you were taking photos of, the images on it) with out a court order, which they can not get unless your were breaking the law while taking said photos.

If you were trespassing when taking the photos, they still have to get a court order, they can’t just grab your camera and remove and destroy the film.
Our legal system still operates under the presumption of innocence; they have to prove criminal intent on your part…which is why most of them just ask you to leave.
If you persist, or argue, they can issue you a citation, and depending on your actions from that point on, arrest you if you fail to comply with their instruction to leave.


Lotus,
It might not hurt to ask a yardmaster or a trainmaster for permission, (see above) most wouldn’t mind, some might give you even more access that you expect.

As for your right to photograph, a lot depends on the venue the photograph is taken in... a “public” or a "private" setting, and ownership of the image and ownership of the contents in the image.

Believe it or not, you "own" the right to your face and any images of it!

Let’s say you and a friend are out shooting photos and you friend takes a nice shot of you against a great backdrop...your face is clearly seen and easy to identify...

If your friend publishes that photo in a travel magazine, on the web, or in any way "sells" that image and they did not get your written permission to do so, they have broken the law.
That would be a photo taken in a private venue, the image of your face is your property,(the film is theirs) to sell or not sell.
If you signed a photographers waiver, then you assigned the right to that image, and that image only, to the person taking the photo, they now own that image of your face and are free to do with it as they please, and use it in any manner they like, unless otherwise specified in the waiver.

Same place, same photographer, but instead you are part of a group walking miles to raise funds for your favorite charity....now, because you are appearing in public for the express intention of being noticed, (you are performing in public for a fee and to attract attention to the charity) and because you have associated yourself with a group with the same purpose, you no longer own exclusive rights to any image of your face taken in that setting only.
That would be a public venue, and an instance where you are performing in public and should expect to be photographed, by both private citizens and professional photographers.

Ever notice that the photographs in Trains magazine rarely include the face of the crew, and the few times it does, you can’t really identify them?

And those photos that do show them clearly, or anyone else for that matter, are sure to have a photographer’s waiver and permission to publish, in writing, somewhere in Kalambach's files.

The courts have ruled that some jobs or professions, by their very nature, encourage photography, and those people who hold said jobs can not expect a right to private ownership of their face...one that comes to mind easily would be the President of the US, and his family.
Because he accepted, in fact, sought out such a high profile job, one that involves numerous public appearances, he has, according to the courts, given up exclusive ownership to his image.
In other words, the face of the President belongs to us, the people of the United States...

Same thing applies to performers, rock bands, and comedians on stage, any person who puts themselves in a public venue, if their job requires public appearance, then you have the right to photograph them, and do as you wish with the image.

I, on the other hand, am a private citizen, do not put myself in a public venue, and have a right to expect my privacy not to be intruded upon.
I still own my face, because I do not place myself in a public venue for the express purpose of being noticed.
Because I perform my job on private property, you do not have the right to take my photo, and publish it anywhere in any form with out my written permission.

Take my profile photo...I own it.
It is here for the express use on this forum only; no one may copy it and use it anywhere else, with out my permission.
You might assume this is a public venue, after all, its a forum open to the public, but in fact, it is not...this is a semi-private venue, open to those that join, and any images used here are for the express use of the members only, i.e. the photo is there only for the enjoyment (or not) of the members of Trains.com.

Now take railroads....because it is impossible to erect walls around them, they appear to be a public venue, but they are not, they are private property.
The courts have ruled that, because the railroads paint their name or logo on the locomotives, they are engaged in a form of advertising, in that they want you, the general public, to notice their locomotives and railcars, and have applied those logos in an attempt to attract your attention...there by placing those items in a public venue.

The courts, in an attempt to protect my right to privacy, have ruled that my actions can determine whether I am in a public or private venue.

If I am sitting in the locomotive, minding my own business and performing my job, or if I am walking down a switching lead or in an industry, going about my normal daily duties as a conductor on private property, I am considered to be in a private venue.

On the other hand, if I step out on the front porch of the locomotive, and wave at you as we go by, then I am intentionally placing myself in a public venue, and you can take all the photos you want.
You can’t publish or sell them, unless I give you permission to do so, but you can take said photos for your own private collection and enjoyment.

Ever notice a photo credit line that states,”From the private collection of….”
Rarely will you see a face in those photos, and if you do, bet on the photographer having had to find the person and obtain a waiver.

The courts have even ruled that how you, the photographer, present yourself can determine if a photo is one intended for public consumption or not.
If you go about dressed in everyday clothes, as a private citizen, and carry a camera taking photos, then you are considered to be taking photos for your” private collection”.

If, on the other hand, you are employed by ABC news, and are wearing id or a ABC News tee shirt or in any way presenting your self as a professional photographer, you have three cameras slung on your shoulder, carring a battery pack and a camera junk bag, in other words, it is obvious that you take photos for a living, then you are considered to be a public or professional photographer, and anyone who places them selves in a position to be photographed by you should expect such photos to be used in a public manner, with written their permission.
Most professional photographers have two collections of photos…those taken in the course of their job, or their public collection, and those taken for their personal enjoyment only…private photos of places, people and such, never intended for publication.
Your collection of train photos is a private collection, unless you took the photo with the express intend of publishing it, which then requires you to obtain permission from those persons that appear and can be identified from that image, which then places the photo in a public collection.

Because wabash is performing his normal duties as a private employee on private property, he has the right to have his privacy to be respected.
As long as he does not place himself in a public venue, or through his actions give you permission, you don’t have the right to take his photograph and use it in any manner, unless you get his permission in writing to do so, which seems very unlikely!

Ed

[blhanel]

You know Ed, the more of your posts I read, the more respect I have for you. Awesome explanation there.

BTW, great profile shot! I'd add one of me to my profile, but I would be afraid of taking the website down.[;)]

[edblysard]

Thanks, Brian...
As a younger man, I did the "portrait” studio thing far a short time...but its a hard business to be in, open any yellow pages and look at how many photographers there are!
Photography laws are not as convoluted as they seem, you, the photographer, own the film and the images it contains, and most of the time; the person being photographed owns the right to sell or publi***hat image.
The standard photographer's waiver and assignment of rights gives you, the photographer, the right to sell, on a limited basis, use of that image for a commercial purpose.
A lot depends on what or how the waiver is written; they can be very general or broad in terms, or quite specific, limiting the image to one particular use or purpose.

If you ever get your photograph taken at a studio, note they do not often give you the negatives, and with the advent of digital photography, the file or card.
Both of those belong to the photographer; the way they are used belongs to the subject.

On the other hand, if you place yourself in a position where being photographed is part and parcel of what you are doing, the courts say you have voluntarily given up your ownership of the use of your image...cops, firefighters on duty, politicians, Princes Harry and William and such are appearing in public as part of their "job" and are free game....
You, as a private citizen, sitting in your living room watching TV are not, even if you have a huge picture window that allows people to see inside.
You have a right to expect privacy inside your home and work place, if such places are private property, even if you take no steps yourself to ensure it...such as hanging curtains or installing blinds, prudent as both would be.

The President of the United States, when appearing in his official capacity as such, has no right to photographic privacy...GW Bush working on his ranch in Crawford, within the confines of that ranch, does.

Ed

[chad thomas]

Thanks for that excellent run-down Ed. That was a great post, and very informative. Might have to re-read it, mabee even save it.

When I am taking train pictures I am shooting the train, not the crew. I can understand Wabash's desire to not be photographed, but claiming he would climb down and tamper with my camera is just absurd. There are things in this world we just have to live with. I hate it when the neighbors people pull in the driveway and whale on the horn because they are too lazy to go to the door and knock, especially late at night and early in the morning. But what can I do, I mean realisticly nothing. Like I said there are certain things in this world we have to live with.
So I say to those whineing about having there picture taken GET OVER IT. Your picture is probably being taken many times a day without you even knowing it anyway. Convienience stores, traffic signals, freeway monitors and security cameras are everywhere these days and there is nothing you can do about that.[8D]

[Anonymous]

the BNSF in Galesburg, IL are in general, very courtious. ive been pitched out of a couple places, but they also tell you the next closest public road that you can shoot from. and a MAJOR plus, about 15 years ago or so, the state built a brand new highway overpass over the BNSF yard. its one of probably VERY few, if any, bridges in the country WITH fullsize shoulders! it HAD to be by request of the BN at the time, to give foamers a place to go, to keep them out of the yard. you can park and sit on the bridge all day, and never have a problem!
there is a private road along side of the yard, but aslong as you stay in the car, and smile and wave at anyone else on the road, weve never been kicked out, we got booted once a few years back, because we were out of the car taking pictures of a BN fuel tender at the engine facility. but never agian since we learned to stay in the car.

[chad thomas]

These days it is getting more common for the fences on overpasses to have camera portholes so you can shoot the action without the chainlink in the way. It's always nice to have a railfan friendly overpass.

[Anonymous]

Dear Chad,
Ahh, but the chainlink fence was a good reason to have a point-and-shoot around to slip through the links.

I can see wabash1 big-holing his intermodal, walking back the stopping distance to the railfan, and explaining to the dispatcher why his train stopped [:)][:D].

Sincerely,
Daniel Parks

[chad thomas]

....and explaining how he got a black eye for trying to get some poor unsuspecting railfans film.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


Yes, we do have a GO stating just that.
It is for the PTRA, although I would guess most other railroads have something similar.
GN and GO, (General notices and General orders) are issued under the name and signature of our Superintendent.
This one makes no distinction between a photographers being on property or not...it says "All persons photographing ...."
Reason being the nature of a lot of our cargo and the specific location of our yards, smack dab in the middle of a bunch of refineries.
This GO does not make it illegal to take photos.
.It does require us to report anyone doing so.

Yanno Ed, I hate to admit it when I am wrong, but...you were right about the orkin man (being needed)

Normally I'm real big on free expression of opinion. But what you are being forced to argue here is not a rail roading issue at all. But rather you are having to mediate someones beef with the way the world spins, as opposed to their personal preferances.

And after weeks and weeks of seeing it over an over again, same emotions, just rooted in different topics...I have to agree with you. One reaches a point where....well...[:D]

[jeaton]

So Ed, if you don't want your picture taken stay in the rest room.[}:)][}:)][(-D]