Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC
QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online?
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history.
QUOTE: Originally posted by cnwrwyman It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that.
Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:13 PM Thank You Jeff and spbed. That sheds some light on it for me. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:05 AM The Government never "asked" the C&NW to build into the Powder River Basin. The BN was first approached by mining companies to build lines to the mines. The C&NW was approached by some utilities for coal rates from PRB to their plants. The C&NW realized the potential of the coal business and planned their own separate line into the PRB. They approached the BN about building a joint line. The BN at first refused, they didn't want the C&NW in there at all. The ICC wasn't going to approve two parallel lines and urged them to come to a joint agreement for use of a single line. This is what eventually happened. The CNWHS Summer 2004 issue of North Western Lines was devoted to the coal lines in Wyoming. Jeff Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:34 AM I found this by doing a Yahoo search of Chicago Northwestern Powder River Coal http://www.delta.edu/rmmee/cnwrr.html [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Thursday, October 20, 2005 8:29 AM Again I think your question can only be answered by a 70s VP from the CNW or a former 70s ICC member. Doubt that either exists on this forum. You can also research the BNRR records as they were very opposed to the ICC allowing the CNW into the PRB. Did you do a google search on CNW Powder River Coal? I thank my lucky stars that I listened to certain people & the ruling that came down was very favorable to the CNW[:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:44 AM With respect to lefthand operation on the CNW I believe the story goes like this. Early on when they were single track the railroad built the depots to one side of the tracks. On the Milwaukee, and Wisconsin Divisions it was on the "compass" east side. On the Galena it was "compass" north side. When commuter service had to be increased to the point that double track was required, the only place to put that second track was of course on the side where the depot buildings weren't. The railroad decided to run the trains with the inbound trains on the "Left hand" side so commuters awaiting the arrival of their train would have the benifit of a depot building, thus the left handed operation throughout the system. However, up in Wisconsin where trains operated over subsidiary Chicago, Minneapolis, St Paul and Omaha, trains were operated "Right-handed." It used to be an old story that the railroad was owned by the English causing the unusual operation. Mitch Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 20, 2005 7:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just wondering why this isn't in any books about CNW?. Wouldn't CNW want the world to know that Uncle Sam begged them to go into PRB? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. I acquired some old CNW employee system time tables recently. Reading thru some of them I came across a few short stretches of double track where it stated, "Trains will keep to the right." I'd have to go look, but I think it was on the line in Wisconsin near Altoona. Jeff Reply wctransfer Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: New Brighton, Minnesota 1,493 posts Posted by wctransfer on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:21 PM Well, i have always liked the CNW, and just wondering if people want to talk abotut the CNW in St. Paul? Also, just food for thought, what was your favorite paintscheme the CNW had. I liked the regular ones, like on the SD40-2's and GP40's. Alec Check out my pics! [url="http://wctransfer.rrpicturearchives.net/"] http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=8714 Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:11 PM Well supposely that mystery was solved some time ago something do with ice at the passenger stations. You do know that the Cajon pass trains operate exactly the same way as the CNW trains used to?. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Originally posted by Murphy Siding
QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general?
Originally posted by zardoz Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply zardoz Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Kenosha, WI 6,567 posts Posted by zardoz on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:01 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? The mystery of why they operated left-handed. Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:57 PM Proviso Yard's name had little to do with Larry Provo and predated his top job. It was simply a contracton of the words "provisions" or "providing", that this was to be the yard that would provide America with a large amount of goods by handling a whale of a percentage of the nation's freight. Heineman streamlined that commuter operations and drastically reduced its operating costs by dieselization, largely made possible by transferring diesels from long distance and country plug passsenger services that he fought (successfully) to discontinue, and by double deck coaches and push pull cab cars which cut some 60% of terminal costs. At the same time this presented a slick new image for the Chicago financial types that commuted on the Northwestern trains. The demise of the C&AE and CNS&M interurubans added more business of course and compensated for the loss of bussiness from the express highway system. He tried to maintain that he actually had a positive cash flow from the commuter business, the only railroad in the USA that could make that statement, but of course this discounted the depreciation of stations and part of the right-of-way. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:47 PM In the ICC eyes I would suspect/guess due to CNW ownership of the"cowboy" line which was also in Wyoming the ICC considered them a "Wyoming" carrier like the UPRR. [:o)][:p] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Originally posted by spbed [ Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:46 PM Because they were afraid that Up was already too powerful. I think this was during a Democratic Administration, also, and despite Averal Harriman having served a Democratic President (Truman) the UP has generally identified with the Rps., if my memory is correct. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:44 PM I'm just giving you the story. You would have ask the ICC why they chose CNW over UPRR. It maybe the data base for ICC does not go back that far but it was in the mid 70s & I guess you can go to a Chicago library & go thru the archives & I am sure you will find it. Maybe you can archive one of the Chicago newspaper for that era also. Something like that that was a life changing experience as I wrote you you tend to remember. I also remember one of the CNW VPs bought himself a ring that would make a SB ring look small. I still even remember that person name[:p][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Originally posted by Murphy Siding Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Originally posted by spbed Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:27 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding I've read this a couple times of on this message board, that *The Government* asked CNW to go into the Powder River Basin. I've yet to see it in any book though. (?) Logically, why wouldn't the ICC have asked a railroad with stronger financial standing to do it? Especially, if one could be allready found in Wyoming? (UP)? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM The ICC wanted competition in the basin so they picked the CNW since they had the "cowboy" line in Wyoming. At 1st the CNW was to extend the "cowboy line. Then the UPRR said they would build a connector to accept the coal trains & CNW being strapped for $$$$ accepted less revenue to have the coal routed CNW then UPRR then CNW again in eastern Nebraska. I know this cause I was doing biz with CNW at the time I was told to buy CNW stock since once the announcement was made CNW would go higher. Today I am a very happy fellow for that decision. [:o)][:)] Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. 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Originally posted by Murphy Siding Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:38 AM Is the train control system still in place across Iowa, and is there still a different system on the UP proper further west ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:52 PM What was the CNW 's biggest legacy that it left to UP, and to American railroading in general? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:21 PM Grant's book on the Eire/ EL makes for some good reading. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 12:50 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Thanks. Just added those to my list of books to find.[:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:27 AM Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 17, 2005 12:19 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC I agree [:)]. What else has he written? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 17, 2005 9:33 AM "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:50 PM I just finished the book "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. It appears that both Heineman and Provo were strong, aggresive leaders. It sounds like Heineman was a real fireball. Ironically, CNW had considered buying UP in the 1890's,when UP's fortunes were down, and CNW's were up. That would have been interesting. Do you think CNW would have kept those American flag stickers clean?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:31 PM I don't think the potental was such a secret. However, it was obvious from the porpectus the company was very levraged (95/5 debt to equity). When the prospectus for the IPO came out I asked Merrell Lynch their opinion. They offered to loan me an amount equal to my annual salary if I would pay them an interest rate equal to two points over prime and pledge the stock as collateral. I wish I had borrowed up to the maximum but hindsight is 20/20. Also, we in the Marketing Department knew the revenue forecast for the next year was agressive but realistic. We knew from our fellows in the Operating Department the expense forecast was realistic if we brought in the traffic. Revenue and cost budgets at the Northwestern were a very serious affair with career consequinces if you missed by more than 2% without a plan to close the gap. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! The stock in the original "employee ownerership" was split the first time as a 60-to-1 deal, meaning that everyone that invested in the first offering made $60 for every $1 invested. Many officials (and a few in operating) invested very heavily at the beginning; there were many rumors that certain "elite" officials and their freinds were privy to insider information, and knew the split would likely happen. Many became millionares overnight. The second split was, if memory serves, a 4-to-1 split; I believe there was another split, but I am not sure. When word got out about the $$$ made by the officials (while the operating and other departments were working with bubblegum and string trying to hold the place together), employee morale went so low as to actually go into negative numbers. BTW-I'm kidding about the negative numbers, but not about the rest. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? I left the Northwestern in 1982 and never worked in Intermodal. However, I did the marketing on soda ash. The Northwestern gave their rate making power of attorney to the UP after the Iowa Lines (BN, CNW and IC) had crashed their portion of the revenue to their marginal costs post Staggers. The did not have a poa from the BN or IC. Bob Reply Bob-Fryml Member sinceMarch 2003 From: US 733 posts Posted by Bob-Fryml on Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:01 PM A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:25 PM It is located in Proviso township so I suppose it was named after that. Larry Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 8, 2005 3:45 PM Don't know who/what Proviso was named for but it was openned in 1929. I googled it looking for some more but found nothing right off hand other than what the definition of proviso is-- "A clause in a document making a qualification, condition, or restriction." I don't think thats it. Although their is a neighborhood/township called Proviso in the Maywood area around the yard. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 8, 2005 1:42 PM Who, or what was Proviso Yard named after? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Friday, October 7, 2005 7:30 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? The yard is named Proviso or Beautiful Proviso to some. Larry Provo died in the 1970s after a very short bought with lung cancer. He was succeded by Jim Wolfe who also died of cancer. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:26 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed No. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:40 PM Bob: Did you buy enough? ed Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:03 PM Thanks Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, October 6, 2005 12:17 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:46 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:28 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:21 AM He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ? Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, October 5, 2005 10:40 PM I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 12:19 PM By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply SALfan Member sinceApril 2002 From: Northern Florida 1,429 posts Posted by SALfan on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:37 AM Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power. For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills. Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:17 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line. In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, October 3, 2005 7:37 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC. Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 3, 2005 3:14 PM Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org. The website's photo section is worth the trip... Paul August Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Monday, October 3, 2005 11:28 AM Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day. Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location. As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Monday, October 3, 2005 10:52 AM One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha. In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history. CC Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, October 3, 2005 6:20 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:27 PM The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 2, 2005 9:15 PM Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under? Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, October 2, 2005 8:16 PM What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:10 PM I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400. Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:54 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply jeffhergert Member sinceMarch 2003 From: Central Iowa 6,901 posts Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, October 1, 2005 12:41 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while. Jeff Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1 Dale Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:34 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did CNW have any tunnels online? Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern. CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online? Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:46 AM Did CNW have any tunnels online? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, September 30, 2005 7:47 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Friday, September 30, 2005 11:28 AM QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, September 30, 2005 8:14 AM Well with the HOTTEST Train that runs though town eveyday should be considered as such........ Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:16 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 29, 2005 7:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:44 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Japonica Partners was a group of "corporate raiders" who made a lot money off an attempted hostile takeover of CNW in the late 80's. It does sound like the name for a Steven Spielberg movie though,doesn't it?[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:32 PM Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was? Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:24 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed What were the falcons? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:04 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout... The UP-Q route provided very good service with pool train crews working between Lincoln and N. Platte! However, once the BN merger took place the UP became uncomfortable with a connection that also served Oregon and Washington. The C&NW managers who did not go to work for the UP did very well financially on their stock and 401-k. The CNW had a very rich, performance based, 401-k for non-agreement employes. Bob Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:45 PM I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that, must have had a brain fade or something.[D)]<<< just pretend that is Bart Simpson saying "doh". Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris_S68 Member sinceMarch 2005 71 posts Posted by Chris_S68 on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 12:09 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:45 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:11 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks It was useful for lumber roller cars consigned to Marshalltown, IA. The CNW's lumber market manager, Don Cape, looked upon it as something for nothing so why not? Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:10 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:25 PM As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:31 PM I seem to have *lost* the post from BNSF railfan about the abandonded CNW track north of Hooper, Neb. (Insert "duh" smilie here). Are you speaking of the section that is used by the Fremont and Elkhorn Valley (?) tourist railroad? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Chris30 Member sinceDecember 2001 From: near Chicago 937 posts Posted by Chris30 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 12:23 PM The UP had interests in the CNW system other than the CNW's portion of the Overland Route: -Belvidere Sub that serves a large Chrysler Plant (orig G&CU main) -Harvard Sub that serves a large GM plant in Janesville, WI -UP has kept all of the lines that serve the Waukegan, Pleasant Prarie & Sheyboygan coal plants. CC Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:47 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Other than a few busy lines, CNW & UP pretty much got rid of the rest. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 6:33 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Often we would combine faster more reliable service with spot off line equipment supply when cars got tight. Using soda ash as an example we had enough volume between North Platte and Elkhart, IN to block trains in NP that ran straight through via UP-FREM-CNW-CHI-CR. In this way we could offer service that was at least a day faster than the BN or IC. In addition the service was very reliable. On top of this the UP was short of covered hoppers in Green River. They gave us and the MP the first crack at making up the shortage which we did with 200 cars each. The shippers were grateful for the help and shifted business to us from the BN and IC as a result. This approach let us increase our soda ash volume from 16% of the market to 75% of the market. At that time we the "profit" margin of soda ash was 100%. Bob Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:25 AM Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP. Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:41 PM I have to agree the UP should have taken over the RI line at C.B. Iowa because it was right there at their own Yard. It would have been a very good connection for the UP. As for the Cowboy line, What was happening to the Cowboy was happening to the E/W line too. Lack of Maintence was very quickly catching up to the Boone sub. Am I correct or am I wrong. One quick Question.......Just why did the UPRR buy the CNW in the first place? Allan. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price? Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 3:47 PM Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies. Bob Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:36 PM The only run-throughs with Rock Island and Eastern carriers of which I am familiar are with Erie Lackawanna in Chicago and with Penn Central over the Kankakee Belt. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 26, 2005 2:31 PM But the Rock was in an ideal position with respect to run-throughs with Eastern Railroads, better than anyone else. Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Since a hostile takeover bid was involved, UP management probably (and wisely) decided not to get involved in a bidding war with Japonica and wind up overpaying for the North Western. RI had less than ideal connections in Chicago with eastern carriers, except maybe for NS (ex-NKP). It also connected with BRC from east of Clearing, so any unclassified interchange for an Eastern carrier would have to go over Clearing's hump twice. Anybody who has watched Iowa Interstate's interchange moves with IHB would appreciate the difficulty of interchange with CSX and NS (ex-NYC). The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:21 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. It seems I forgot how to use the quote feature[:I]. I was asking bobwilcox what a Market Manager was at CNW. Thanks Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:51 AM Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W This is a photograph of a CRI&P train ducking under the BN main. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=86468 Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Monday, September 26, 2005 11:08 AM I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason... The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection. The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago. However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard. Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago. I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate! ed Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:40 AM As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Monday, September 26, 2005 10:35 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Bob Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 26, 2005 8:14 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process. BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, September 26, 2005 6:52 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Monday, September 26, 2005 12:07 AM You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)] The death of a Cowboy. The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction. Fremont- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257 Fremont and Elkhorn Valley- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008 http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html Norfolk- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W Long Pine- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W Merriman- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W Chadron- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097 Dakota Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W Crawford- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W Crandall- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W Lusk- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392 Lost Springs- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399 Shawnee- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962 Fisher Junction- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W Shobon- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W Shoshoni- http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263 Riverton- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W Lander- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W South Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:02 PM You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:57 PM C&NW Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton CSPM&O Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside M&SL Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola Here is you tunnel- http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W Dale Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:57 PM Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing. Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:27 PM I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:08 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure. As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E. Reply Edit railfan619 Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Somewhere near the tracks 927 posts Posted by railfan619 on Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:07 PM I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW? Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:02 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Sunday, September 25, 2005 9:12 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 8:33 AM I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:18 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains? Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned. Bob Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:24 AM Wow, what a lot of information. thanks! Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:08 PM The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W The main C&NW base was at Bill. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W Rojo http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000 http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains). North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own. Wyodak 4,780,104 tons Eagle Butte 22,997,687 Dry Fork 4,533,621 Rawhide 6,869,989 Buckskin 12,794,992 http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different. Dale@Links-R-Us Dale Reply MP173 Member sinceMay 2004 From: Valparaiso, In 5,921 posts Posted by MP173 on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:55 PM Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 9:45 PM No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours. Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc. P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63. Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please! Reply Edit Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:37 PM cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger? bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 7:33 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal. C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines. Reply Edit bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:23 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century. Bob Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, September 24, 2005 5:00 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County? Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:52 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. Reply Edit jeaton Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: Rockton, IL 4,821 posts Posted by jeaton on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Saturday, September 24, 2005 4:32 PM The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture. Bob Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Saturday, September 24, 2005 3:54 PM C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Ride Amtrak. Cats Rule, Dogs Drool. Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 Roger Grant books that I have read are the Northwestern, The Corn Belt Route (Chicago Great Western) and a book on the Erie / Erie-Lackawana. I think that there are a few more. CC
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 "The Northwestern" by Roger Grant. Excellent book. Roger Grant is a very good author and I have read several of his books. CC
QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it!
QUOTE: Originally posted by Bob-Fryml A friend of mine who hired-on in train service with the C.& N.W. in Marshalltown, Iowa back in the late 1960s told me that one of the first rumors he heard was, "It's only a matter of time before Union Pacfic takes us over." That happened officially in 1995. In 1972 the C.& N.W. went "Employee Owned." Financially, during the four or five years of employee ownership, the railroad lived pretty much a hand-to-mouth existence and worked extremely hard to bring whatever pennies it could to the bottom line. When the railroad went into the power market it largely purchased second hand units. Rail and crosstie replacements were abysmally low. But here's the amazing part: a $10,000 investment on the day the company went "Employee Owned" was worth a cool million the day the company went public again. Given the generally mediocre condition of the property and all of the moribund branchlines the company was saddled with, to my way of thinking there is no way on God's green earth that any rational person could accept that the value of C.& N.W. stock could increase a hundred fold in such a short period of time. If there was ever an example of irrational exuberance, this was it! As to why the U.P. waited so long to merge, a previous contributor to this thread expressed the right idea: too many money losing branchlines. Had U.P. grabbed the railroad before the Interstate Commerce Commission liberalized its abandonment formulas, the politics of abandoning those lines would have been hysterical. Hundreds of communities and many dozens of shippers would have righteously insisted that "Certainly a rich and powerful railroad like Union Pacific can afford to keep our branch line going." Multiply that kind of pleading by dozens of highly-taxed, light-railed, worn-tied, inadequately-bridged subdivisions and industrial leads, and it's no wonder that Uncle Pete held off. Question for Bob Wilcox. In the last two or three years of its independence I seem to recall that the C.& N.W. acted as a sub-contractor of sorts for Union Pacific with respect to a series of Chicago - Council Bluffs high-speed container/trailer trains. The trains moved on a Chicago - West Coast tariff that specified Union Pacific the entire way. Union Pacific set the schedules and U.P. officers at Wood Street (?) managed the terminal operation for these trains. Just exactly what was the arrangement and how did it work?
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money. Did he go on to work for UP,or retire? I can't say I've heard his name before, unless the CNW yard in Chicago is named after him? Provo Yard?
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no. What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees? Thanks
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees. Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no.
QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW? In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW?
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Bob: Did you buy enough? ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P. Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ?
QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business?
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines? Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines?
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above. Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly. How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30 QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time. ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm. ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL CC
QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding: Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Did CNW have any tunnels online?
QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks The Falcons were scheduled high speed run-through TOFC/COFC trains. I believe the service started in the early to mid 70s. Wood Street was used as the terminal because it was close to the city with good access from nearby expressways. There were cutoff times for trucks and the trains left on time with whatever they had. CNW did a really good job marketing the service and it was very successful. When double-stack serviice started, Wood Street and an old B&O yard adjacent to it were turned into Global One.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding [ What were the falcons? Thanks
QUOTE: Originally posted by farmer03 Maybe someone could give me a brief explanation of what/who Japonica was?
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 I recall there was an article in Trains (late 70's) that gave a in depth look at the Falcons. It was in the form of the writer riding the Falcon from Chicago to the handoff to the UP. Might be good looking up for more historical info for you CNW fans. It might have been titled "Route of the Falcons" or "Where Falcons Fly" something like that. ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island ... Regarding the buyout...
QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris_S68 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did? Global One/Wood street = CNW Global Two/Proviso = CNW Global Three/Rochelle = UP
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Are you saying CNW opened Global 1? I thought UP did?
QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood. Perhaps reroute is the wrong word and I should have said shifted? In any case, during the late 60s UP was short-hauling itself over the CB&Q via Grand Island to avoid the CNW Omaha line into Chicago. Once Heineman was gone, CNW did major repairs to the line, opened the Fremont cutoff and as you mentioned in another post, relations and traffic improved greatly. Some other things CNW did that made it desireable to UP was the opening of Global 1 at Wood street , development of Intermodal business, the Falcons. etc. The line was aleady double-track and capable of high speed without needing major re-alignments like the RI and Milw routes would have required. Regarding the buyout, I seem to recall that UP owned a big chunk of non-voting stock as part of the coal line deal. They were also a major player in the Blackstone Group which served as a white knight against the Japonica bid. I believe they owned something like 30% of the stock at the time of the buyout and probably controlled more through other partners in Blackstone. IMHO both roads ultimately benefited. The partnership with UP in the coal line saved CNW from becoming just another granger, while the Omaha line continues to be the vital eastern part of the Overland Route, just as it has been since the beginning.
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic .. The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood.
QUOTE: Originally posted by up829 UP rerouted much of it's traffic ..
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding As part of the BN merger, CNW was granted (?) a *Gateway* to the BN at Oakes, N.D. Did they use this? And, did it do them any good? Of course, the line is gone now.[:(] Thanks
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific bought the C&NW for the line from Council Bluffs to Chicago. It was competing with ATSF for Chicago-California traffic and with BN for Pacific North West-Chicago traffic and it needed that line to be in top shape. UP was concerned C&NW would let the line degrade. UP had the morgage on the WRPI and would have gotten that one way or another. The rest of the C&NW was not that important to UP.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding Can you elaborate on designing the services your customers required? If most was regulated, what could CNW do to differentiate it from other railroads, in order to keep from competing soley on price?
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox Each market manager at the C&NW was in charge of a group of commodities. I did chemicals while other people did grain, autos, coal, lumber,food, etc. It was our job to design the services our customers required, set the price for the service and then promote the C&NW's services to the customers. Most of the time I was doing this prior to the Staggers Act so the pricing part had serious limitations. However, we were able to get block shipments of potash and grain up and running prior to Staggers. In addition the CNW in the 1970s had three basic strategies. We were to get the comuter service deficits off our back and on to the backs of the taxpayers in NE IL. We were to abandon the 60% of the mileage that only produced 4% of the revenue. We were to build a strong relationship with the UP after the CRIP fiasco when the UP and CNW were at each others throats. All of our market plans had to complement these three strategies.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W Deja-Vu! Makes you wonder why UP didn't jump right in and buy CNW at that time?
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Union Pacific took out an option to buy the Iowa Interstate in May 1989 while Japonica Partners launched a hostile takeover bid for the C&NW. UP would have put in double track and CTC and certainly could have built a large yard away from Chicago, much as they have done at Rochelle. Perhaps they would have purchased the EJE east of Joliet and interchanged with NS, CSX and Conrail in Indiana. The Rochelle webcam would have been at Wyanet. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=16&X=176&Y=2863&W
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture.
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW. The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view. bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW? Thanks However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)]
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times. Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks. Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW?
QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line? Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan. Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line?
QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan. I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan.
QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173 Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads. Bob, it must have been bleak. Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's. CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating. As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha. ed
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is. I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County?
QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835 QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW. Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain? Thanks
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(]. Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW. Jay
QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(].
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