Chicago & Northwestern Railroad

[Murphy Siding]

I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW.

Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain?

Thanks

[espeefoamer]

C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(].

[bobwilcox]

The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW.

The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view.

However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture.

[jeaton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(].

Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW.

Jay

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW.

Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain?

Thanks

Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW.

Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain?

Thanks

Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is.

I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County?

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

C&NW sold thier soul to UP to get into the PRB. I suspected at the time that C&NW would pay dearly for this [:(].

Bob or others might comment on this, but I believe it actually turned out quite well for the C&NW.

Jay

It saved the CNW from the fate of the Rock Island and Milwaukee as the Granger railroads shrank to a size that made some sense in the last quarter of the 20th Century.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I know some posters live in the Chicago area, and a lot of us live in the area once served by CNW ( the midwest/upper plains). I was hoping some would share their thoughts on the CNW.

Starting with: How did the CNW work their way into the Powder River Basin? I would have thought that BN would have fought to the end to keep out competition there. I lived in Gillette in the early 1980's. Every train then had Cascade Green locomotives. At some point, CNW (with help of UP I presume) got in there, and I missed that part. Can anybody explain?

Thanks

Do you mean C&NW in Gillette proper, because C&NW never got there. At first C&NW's rights ended at Coal Creek Jct and then extended north to Caballo Jct still about 20 miles south of Gillette. Also the farther north on the joint line the fewer C&NW trains there would be since C&NW only entered and exited from the south end. I don't know if that is what you were looking for but there it is.

I didn't know that the CNW(now UP) didn't go all the way up to Gillette. I moved away in 1984, and have only been back once. So apparantly the CNW only served the mines in the southern end of Campbell County?

C&NW origanally only served the mines up to Coal Creek which branches off of the joint line at milepost 26.2 (from Donkey Creek, the north end of the line). C&NW ran its first train on August 15, 1984. Soon after that C&NW went to the ICC trying to get its trackage rights extended farther north so it could serve the northern 4 or so mines on the line. Cordero Mine had already built a 1.5 mile lead down to Coal Creek Jct so C&NW could have access the mine. The ICC gave C&NW permission to build a 10.8 mile line in 1985 to serve the remaining mines served only by BN but in 1986 BN relented and gave C&NW rights to continue farther north on the joint line for a price. C&NW had already surveyed a line and was ready to put out contracts when BN agreed to the deal.
C&NW served no mines on the branch north out of Gillette off of the Alliance-Billings line. BNSF is still the only rail service to those 3 or 4 mines.

[Murphy Siding]

cnw8835: Do you know if that was always a CNW operation? Or did UP also operate trains and crews to the mines-before the merger?


bobwilcox: What can you tell me about the section of track that CNW and BN built together? Was this in addition to tracks that I believe BN already had in place?

[Anonymous]

No, UP didn't operate trains into the basin before the merger. UP would deliver the trains to C&NW at South Morril, NE where the UP crew would step off, a C&NW crew would climb on and the train would normally leave very quickly (They still do, just not quite as fast). The South Morril based C&NW crew would take the train up the new line to the Cowboy line and onto the Joint Line up to Bill. At Bill a new crew would climb on and take the train to a mine and back to Bill where another South Morril based crew would return the train to the UP. The expected elapsed time from UP-back to-UP was 20-22 hours.
Also, C&NW's subsidiary in the Basin was actually called Western Rail Properties Inc.


P.S.-- I should give credit to Fred Frailey for much of this info and for getting me very interested in the PRB. TRAINS, November 1989, pages 40-63.
Fred! Write another article on the PRB! Please!

[MP173]

Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads.

Bob, it must have been bleak.

Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's.

CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating.

As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha.

ed

[nanaimo73]

The Chicago and North Western entered the Powder River Basin on the WRPI which was owned by Union Pacific. This line started at Joyce, Nebraska.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=731&Y=5802&W
It joined the old C&NW Cowboy line at Crandall, Wyoming.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W WRPI track ended at Shawnee Junction where BNSF track continues north.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=613&Y=5917&W
The main C&NW base was at Bill.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=598&Y=5982&W
The first mine served was Antelope which produced 29,682,854 tons of coal in 2004.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=589&Y=6016&W
The next mine was North Antelope-Rochelle which produced 82,462,835 tons.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=299&Y=3012&W
The third mine was North Rochelle which produced 13,163,942 tons.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=298&Y=3011&W
Mine #4 is Black Thunder which produced 74,291,168 tons.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=596&Y=6047&W
Next is Jacobs Ranch at 38,556,877.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=300&Y=3024&W
And then Coal Creek which was inactive in 2004.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=297&Y=3042&W
Cordero comes next with 38,743,667 which includes Rojo.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=147&Y=1523&W
Rojo
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3049&W
Belle Ayr produced 18,688,358 tons in 2004.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=146&Y=1525&W
The northernmost mine served by the C&NW was Caballo which produced 26,500,000
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=13&X=294&Y=3052&W
During 2004 the mines in the WRPI territory produced 322,089,700 tons of coal, about 880,000 tons per day, or about 7,300 cars (65 trains).
North of the WRPI zone BNSF serves several mines on their own.
Wyodak 4,780,104 tons
Eagle Butte 22,997,687
Dry Fork 4,533,621
Rawhide 6,869,989
Buckskin 12,794,992
http://www.wma-minelife.com/coal/coalfrm/coalfrm1.htm

These Terraserver links are several years old. I believe the trackage should still be the same but the mine facings will be quite different.

Dale@Links-R-Us

[daveklepper]

Wow, what a lot of information. thanks!

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

Just imagine what kinda bad financial position CNW was in NOT to get financial backing for the biggest opportunity in the 20th century for railroads.

Bob, it must have been bleak.

Today, DME seemingly can get backing, with rates considerably lower (adjusted for inflation) than back in the 70's.

CNW was sitting on a black gold mine and couldnt pull the trigger. How frustrating.

As I understand it, CNW "built" down to the UP, perhaps thru trackage rights and then handed the coal over to UP and then received it back at Fremont, or Omaha.

ed

It wasn't all that bleak when I saw what friends at the CRIP and MILW were going through. Measuring sucess was simple, were you still running trains?

Also, the UP and CNW had a routing agreement on coal the CNW could handle. It had to move CNW-UP-Fremont-CNW as you mentioned.

[Anonymous]

I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan.

Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan.

Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line?

Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan.

Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line?

Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times.

Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks.

Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW?

[railfan619]

I think that CN&W was one of the best RR's around and I was pretty [:(] to see it fall to the UP but aleast I still see some of the CN&W cars and even loco around from time to time.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

I wi***hat the CNW Railway was still around today. I realy also wanted to see the CNW run Coal Trains on the Cowboy Line. But when the CNW "GAVE" them selves to the UPRR.....that ended it right there. It was realy sad that the cowboy no longer runs Trains anymore. There was some hope for the cowboy line but not anymore. As for the Coal Trains. Well time will tell......Allan.

Wouldn't that have required a ga-zillion dollars in ROW rebuild to run heavy coal trains over the Cowboy Line?

Yes, it would have cost a whole lot to rebuild the Cowboy Line. Its was 519 miles from Fremont to Shawnee Jct with 90-100 lbs rail with very little ballast. There were 417 bridges, almost all of which would have to have been rebuilt. At best it would have cost 1 million a mile to get the line to the point where a coal train could even safely travel over it. In the mid 70's when rebuilding the Cowboy was first proposed, C&NW was in no shape to spend at least a half billion dollars just on the Cowboy and then another half billion on their portion of the Joint Line. C&NW couldn't have managed that even in the best of times.

Once CNW's Pacific ambitions ended, the Cowboy line no longer mattered in the larger scheme of things. For all intents and purposes, it became a Granger branch. In the 1970's there was a lot of overbuilt capacity, and it made sense to use UP's available capacity rather than spend a lot of money on a superfluous single commodity line. Today it might be different, as capacity is maxed and any new business is going to require added tracks.

Thus, we have the DM&E taking on what CNW couldn't pull off. If CNW had somehow managed to keep it all on the home rails sans UP's involvement, would that have forestalled the UP takeover of CNW?

Yes, it is possible that C&NW getting into the PRB by itself may have delayed the UP takeover. Any definate answer about that would be nothing more than speculation. We will never know for sure.
As for DME's project, in my mind it is even more ambitious than C&NW rebuilding the Cowboy Line. DM&E is not only rebuilding the former C&NW "Alco Line" but is also building 150ish miles of brand new rail line. Granted if C&NW had rebuilt the Cowboy line virtually nothing other than the ROW would have been kept (which is what happened from Shawnee Jct to Crandall Jct) so it basically would have been a new line, DM&E is working with completely new ROW. More power to you DM&E.

[Murphy Siding]

I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)]

[Murphy Siding]

Big John hopper cars: Something interesting I read, that really hit home- In his book, "Merging Lines", Richard Saunders explains that the 100-ton-capacity covered hoppers changed the face of the prairie forever. They replaced 40-foot boxcars that could carry barely 25 tons of grain. "The jumbo cars did not necessarily need heavy rail, but they needed good track with.....sound...bridges". This meant that granger branches......... would die. >>>"... the co-op elevators,the little towns around them,and the little businesses in those towns would vanish"<<<<<. That pretty much describes 100 little towns within 100 miles of my home. CNW sure had it's share of branch lines that wilted and vanished,just like the small towns that are vanishing.

[nanaimo73]

C&NW
Wood, Mosher, Witten, Winner, Colome, Dallas, Gregory, Burke, Herrick, St. Charles, Bonsteel, Fairfax, Mission Hill, Volin, Wakonda, Centerville, Hooker, Hurley, Monroe, Canistota, Salem, Unityville, Canova, Vilas, Argonne, Carthage, Esmond, Astoria, Bruce, Estelline, Dempster, Castlewood, Appleby, Gary, Moritz, Altamont, Goodwin, Kratzburg, Kampeska, Henry, Elrod, Clark, Raymond, Doland, Turton, Conde, Verdon, Ferney, Frankfort, Zell, Rockham, Miranda, Faulkton, Burkmere, Seneca, Lebanon, Gettysburg, Gorman, Agar, Broadland, Hitchcock, Crandon, Rudolph, Ordway, Columbia, Houghton
CSPM&O
Valley Springs, Branson, Hartford, Humboldt, Montrose, Spencer, Farmer, Fulton, Riverside
M&SL
Revillo, Strandburg, Troy, Waverly, Florence, Wallace, Bradley, Crocker, Crandell, Adelaide, Stratford, Nahon, Richmond, Wetonka, Leola

Here is you tunnel-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1587&Y=11781&W

[Murphy Siding]

You're on the wrong thread![:-,]. If I'm looking at that correctly, the tunnel has been daylighted?

[nanaimo73]

You mean I've cross-threaded ?[:)]

The death of a Cowboy.
The Cowboy line of the Chicago and North Western was built by subsidiary Fremont, Elkhorn and Missouri Valley. Beginning in Fremont in 1869 the FE&MV reached Rapid City South Dakota in 1886 and Lander Wyoming in 1906. Plans to connect with the Central Pacific in Ogden were shelved and the Rapid City line stopped at Colony in 1948. During 1944 86 miles from Illco to Shobon were pulled up for the war effort and trackage rights over the CB&Q were used. The last 23 miles from Riverton to Lander were pulled up in 1972. The 1984 system timetable starts with mile 0 in Fremont and the West Point subdivision runs to Norfolk at mile 81.8. The Norfolk subdivision then runs to Long Pine at mile 213.6. Next is the Long Pine sub to Chadron at mile 406.3. Finally is the Casper subdivision to Riverton at mile 724.7. During 1984 the line from Fremont to Norfolk was abandoned and the Fremont, West Point and Pacific took over the first 17 miles. 1988 saw the sale of the Shobon to Riverton section to Bonneville Transloaders. During 1989 another 69 miles from Orin Junction to Casper was removed. The 55 miles from Merriman to Chadron became the Nebkota Railroad during March of 1994 and the Chadron to Crawford section went to DME in 1996. DME also acquired the line through Rapid City to Colony at this time. Union Pacific is operating the section from Crandall to Fisher Junction.
Fremont-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=14&X=443&Y=2867&W
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=72257
Fremont and Elkhorn Valley-
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=35008
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/4184/fevr.html
Norfolk-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=787&Y=5815&W
Long Pine-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=14&X=1105&Y=11772&W
Merriman-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=14&X=349&Y=5943&W
Chadron-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=829&Y=5929&W
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=112097
Dakota Junction-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1639&Y=11867&W
Crawford-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1574&Y=11818&W
Crandall-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=710&Y=5906&W
Lusk-
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17392
Lost Springs-
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=17399
Shawnee-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=622&Y=5914&W
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=14962
Fisher Junction-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=13&X=1224&Y=11815&W
Shobon-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=922&Y=5992&W
Shoshoni-
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=193263
Riverton-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=891&Y=5959&W
Lander-
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1714&Y=11861&W
During 1962 United States Steel opened a 77 mile line from a Union Pacific junction at Winton to their Atlantic City mine. This line came within 21 miles of Lander but was abandoned in 1983. The crossing of South Pass was at 7,550’ and the line continued to climb to the mine at 8,430’. Lander is at 5.355’.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=12&X=855&Y=5888&W
South Pass
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=12&X=1684&Y=11724&W

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

The C&NW recognized the potental in the PRB in the early 1970s but could not find a way to finance the project. During this time I was a Market Manager at the C&NW.

The BN initically announced they were going to object to the C&NW coming into the PRB. Robert Spafford, Chairman of the ICC, invited Larry Provo, CEO of the C&NW and Bob Dowding, CEO of the BN to a meeting in Washington. He pointed out to his guests that the US faced an energy crisis and the national interest required the C&NW coming into the PRB as soon as they could arrange financing and specifically without a long drawn out ICC case about the C&NW getting access. The two CEOs agreed with Mr Spafford's view.

bobwilcox: What is/was a Market Manager, at CNW?

Thanks

However, the C&NW was unable to finance the project via the Cowboy Line or a connection with the UP in NE. Therefore, the UP thought the C&NW should step aside and not object to the UP coming in from Nebraska via the North Platte River. The C&NW's counter proposal was that they set up a joint venture(Northwest Town Properties). The C&NW contributed their geographic position and the UP contributed their borrowing power to the new joint venture.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I seem to recall that the UP and CNW had been working together for a long time-as far back as when UP was built? I do know that CNW was a major partner in hauling UP trains from Fremont and Omaha on to Chicago. It would seem to me that CNW was not really in a position to ask any other railroad for help. UP, I'm sure would have agreed.[;)]

UP rerouted much of it's traffic off the CNW when defered maintainance caught up with the CNW line across Iowa, but I don't think UP was ever really happy with the Milw connection into Chicago. After the BN merger and the RI fiasco, I suspect it was in UP's best interest to make the CNW a viable partner, without having to go through the merger process.

BN didn't want CNW in the PRB, but they feared UP even more. I recall reading about a UP offer to build and operate into the PRB with the CNW getting royalty payments. I think UP's management was later quoted as saying it was a bluff to help a friend.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up829

UP rerouted much of it's traffic ..

The UP or any other railroad does not have traffic to reroute. The person paying the freight routes the traffic. There are no exceptions except for a emergency situation such as a derailment or a flood.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

As I mentioned in a response to a speculative question regarding RI+UP, RI had relatively poor terminal facilities and connections in Chicago when compared to C&NW. The same could probably be said for MILW in a C&NW vs. MILW comparison, although it would be a closer call. This may explain why C&NW kept so much overhead traffic from UP even when parts of the Omaha main were deteriorating.

[MP173]

I would venture to say that in today's environment, a super charged Rock Island mainline from Omaha to Chciago would be superior to the current CNW routing for one reason...

The Rock enters Chicago on the south side and thus would bypass all the congestion of moving solid trains from Proviso to the NS, CSX, or CN connection.
The traffic could avoid the IHB routing thru Chicago.

However, yarded freight would probably be a challenge, as there is nothing on the Rock to match Proviso Yard.

Perhaps someday in the future, if the CNW route gets plugged from too much traffic, probably 10+ years in the future, UP will consider purchasing the Rock line and upgrading to handle thru trains, such as run thrus and coal trains moving around Chicago.

I am not that familiar with the connections with the Rock, but hey, it is only real estate!

ed