Chicago & Northwestern Railroad

[Murphy Siding]

Did CNW have any tunnels online?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Did CNW have any tunnels online?

Yes. I can think of four. One on the Old Line a little north of Elroy, WI and then three on the route to La Crosse that branched off the Old Line at Elroy.

[Chris30]

QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding:
Did CNW have any tunnels online?

Only one that I know of. It was on the Madison to LaCrosse line in Wisconsin. The tunnel was near Sparta & Elroy (somewhere in that area). The line is no longer a through route and service ends at Reedsburg. The line is now operated by Wisconsin Southern.

CC

[nanaimo73]

There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Chris30

QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding:
Is there a UP equivilent of the Falcons? It sounds like a good program that was a little before it's time.

ZCSLT - High priority intermodal, Canal St, Chicago, IL to Lathrop, CA (Sometimes this train is symboled as ZCSOA for Oakland, CA). A lot of orange Schneidner trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @1:30pm
ZLTCS - Lathrop, CA to Canal St, Chicago, IL

ZCSSC - Canal St, Chicago, IL to Salt Lake City, UT. A lot of UPS trailers. Used to see this train roll through Elmhurst, IL at @9:45pm.
ZSCCS - Salt Lake City, UT to Canal St, Chicago, IL

CC

Good that the tradition carried through, but the name doesn't have quite the *cool* factor as "falcon"[;)]

The name sort of carries over. The crews and dispatchers refer to the Z trains has "birds." One dispatcher a few years ago used the term, "super chicken." Heard that the other day, the first time in quite a while.
Jeff

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

There was a C&NW tunnel at Tunnel City Wisconsin which was just north of CMSP&P tunnel #1. It collapsed in 1973 and the C&NW got trackage rights over the Milwaukee Road through the tunnel which continued on to Winona Minnesota. Union Pacific still uses these rights.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1735&Y=12188&W=1

Why go to all the trouble to build such a short tunnel? Wouldn't it be just as easy to excavate it?

[nanaimo73]

I know Soo Line was looking at daylighting their tunnel in 1991. That was tunnel #1 on the Milwaukee main line mile 243 and tunnel #2 was around mile 1,400.

[Murphy Siding]

What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines?

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines?

Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process.

[Anonymous]

Why did CNW take over the CGW? Wouldn't the CGW have gone under?

[nanaimo73]

The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

The C&NW gained entry into Kansas City by aquiring the CGW. They also got rid of a competitor and gained acess to more customers. They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly.

How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly.

How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above.

Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

They also abandoned a lot of the CGW fairly quickly.

How did CNW abandon a lot of CGW fairly quickly? See bobwilcox post above.

Most of the Iowa trackage was abandoned between 1980 and 1984. They acquired the CGW in 1968 so it would seem quickly is the wrong word.

The process speeded up about 1980. The ICC responded to CRIP and MILW liqudations.

[Chris30]

One additional note on the CGW... there were too many graingers - too much track in Iowa. In the mid 1960's you had the CB&Q, Rock Island, Chicago & Northwestern, Milwaukee Road, Illinois Central & CGW with east/west main lines through Iowa to Omaha. The CGW was the little guy and their trackage roughly parrelled the IC trackage all the way from Chicago to Omaha.

In Illinois very little of the CGW was kept. What was kept and used by the CNW/UP is slowly fading into history.

CC

[jeaton]

Sometime in the very early 1960's, I was rooming at my Aunt's home in Chicago suburban Bellwood. The IHB/CGW interchange tracks were about a couple of hundred yards away on the other side of the street. IHB transfer jobs would drop cars in the yard all day long and then late in the afternoon, the CGW would pick up the cars and make their daily drag freight even longer. For all I know, that afternoon westbound may have been the only departure for the day.

Someone once told me that the CGW dispatchers had an interesting method for getting the OS's at various unmaned locations. Appearantly they could open up microphones situated near certain grade crossings and when the engineer sounded the horn for the crossing, the dispatcher sould have an up date on the train's location.

As Chris30 notes, they were running 6th in a 5 man race.

Jay

[Anonymous]

Those of you seeking more info and a great magazine on the C&NW (North Western Lines), come check out the CNWHS at www.cnwhs.org.

The website's photo section is worth the trip...

Paul August

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

What took CNW so long to rationalize it's branchlines?

Basically it was the ICC. In the early 1970s a money losing line with traffic would take 4-5 years to abandon in the face of opposition. Within ten years that time frame had been cut to two years and the ICC allowing "oppurtuinity" costs into the process.

I was thinking that CNW had been slower than some contemporaries at abandoning branchlines. After checking it out a little bit,they all appeared to take a long time to abandon a line-for the obvious reason you listed,the ICC.
Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business?

Thanks

[Chris30]

QUOTE: By: Murphy Siding:
Did railroads do anything different concerning a line they *wished* they could abandon? like discourage traffic? Or, conversely, if a certain line wasn't getting enough traffic to pay for itself, would a railroad try harder to pick up new business?

First, most lines that any railroad wished to abandon had very little traffic to discourage. If they had traffic, then the railroad probably would want to keep, or sell, the line.

In the 1960's and 1970's a lot of excess trackage suffered from deffered maintenance (or, perhaps no maintenance) while wating to be officialy being abandoned. The CNW was one of many railroads that didn't have the money to rehabilatate branch lines that would never turn a profit for the railroad again.

CC

[SALfan]

Don't know when it started, but for a long time C&NW seemed to have a policy of "buy the weaker competitors, abandon the parts we don't need, and concentrate the traffic on our lines". Given the regulatory climate at the time, and the overbuilt nature of railroading in that part of the Midwest, I think it was the perfect policy. Weak railroads desperate for cash flow tend to bid down the rates to the point of starvation. C&NW was trying to eliminate competitors and gain some pricing power.

For a parallel in another line of business, look at International Paper. For several years they have been buying every paper company they could, then shutting down the outdated or poorly located mills. I guess they got tired of the cyclical nature of the paper business - in downturns when everybody was desperate for business, paper got really cheap. IP has bought and shut down a whole bunch of mills.

Don't know if it's true or not, but I read somewhere that at one time almost no point in Iowa was more than 6 miles from a rail line. That's way too many rail lines for today's environment.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

By the early 1970's, the CGW main in Illinois was already drying up. Overhead traffic had gone to the C&NW main and local service was down to a tri-weekly Chicago-Stockton IL turn. By the time I graduated from NIU, the CGW west of Stockton was posted for abandonment.

[Murphy Siding]

I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW?

[nanaimo73]

He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P.

Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW?

In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up829

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW?

In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees.

Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by up829

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW?

In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees.

Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no.

What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees?

Thanks

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by up829

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I'm reading a good book called "The Tootin' Louie", a History of the Minneapolis & St. Louis Railway. I'm up to the part about Ben Heinneman-later to play a big part in the future of C&NW. From what I've read so far, he seems like one tough hombre. Was he good for the C&NW?

In the early years, he was very good for the Northwestern, but he was also an empire builder and deal maker. He wanted to merge the C&NW, Milw, and RI into one large midwestern railroad, well before the BN merger or the UP went after the RI. There was an aborted merger with the Milw and although he managed to torpedo UP's acquisition of the RI, afterwards IMO he became more interested in Northwest Industries, C&NW's parent and holding company for a number of diversified companies. The railroad went into decline, there were no buyers, and it was spun off to the employees.

Thanks to Larry Provo the empoyees who bought stock made a great deal of money. I can always tell if someone worked for the Northwestern at this time if they can answer this question correctly without any further information : Did you buy enough? Answer : no.

What did Larry Provo do for the railroad and employees?

Thanks

IMHO Larry Provo was the strongest CEO the C&NW had in the Post War period. Without him the CNW would have gone the way of the MILW and CRIP. He got the railroad focused toward the future which meant getting rid of the losses on comuter service, getting rid of the branchlines and getting in bed with the UP. He put together a very good set of managers including Jim Wolfe and Ed Burkhart. In the process some of us made a lot of money.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

He was terrific for the C&NW ! He saved the North Western from bankruptcy, got them into St. Louis and Kansas City and won the war with the CMSP&P and the CRI&P.

Murphy, I would really like to know when the bridge over the Mississippi at Keithsburg opened. Does it say in the book ?

No help there. It basically says the bridge was part of Iowa Central, when M&StL took it over.

[nanaimo73]

Thanks

[MP173]

Bob:

Did you buy enough?

ed