Railroaders ideas to improve crossing safety

[edblysard]

Due in part to the huge response generated by a certain posting, and to dispel the idea that we railroaders have little or no concern for the safety of those who cross our tracks, I would like to hear from those individuals who work in the industry, and allow them, in their own words, to offer their ideas on how we, as a major part of the transportation structure in America, can or should improve at grade crossings of our tracks. I think rail fans should have a voice in this also, as they are the reason this forum was started in the first place. No idea is to fooli***o be considered, and you should not limit youself to exsisting technology. And if someone could or would, please include the remainder of the FRA statictical report on grade crossing accidents.
In this light, I belive that the FRA's program to close crossings is the way to go, again , the safest crossing is the one that isnt there. I also feel that under and overpasses, while more expensive than an at grade crossings, in the long run makes more finical sense, in that the cost of repeated litigation stemming from a ill designed crossing at some point has to exceed the cost of modifying the crossing. Lastly, educating the general public would seem to be the most cost effective tool currently available. Not just at the drivers ed level, high schoolers have little if any rentention skills outside of sex, drugs and rock and roll, but rather a nation wide TV campaign, aimed at the 30 something crowd. I am sure, with all the PSA (public service ad) time anailable, that some network, even MTV, would ante up, if it was pitched to them right.
So lets hear from those of you who wi***o excerise their right to view both sides of a issue, to learn, to listen, and to voice an opinion.
Stay frosty,
Ed

[wabash1]

Ed it seems this is a lost couse. education is by far not working all that well. and the ones who should be reading this are probley at a porn site. the deal is you get bleeding hearts liberal come hear to state something with no facts i am still waiting for the place where this accident occured. the rail involved. i been to these mickey mouse courts in the acidents. in the acidents i been to the railroad was not allowed to bring in any evidance contrary to the evidence the prosecution had. we would have one the case but we was banned to do anything but take a beating. at one acident the woman claimed she stopped short of the crossing and the train steered over to her and hit her. duha. (yes she was blonde. and dont flame me i am married to a blonde and 2 blonde children i am not blonde) and not all blodes are dum. until we get into their pocket book and get away from this rush -rush society we live in this wont go away. over passes would be the way to go. no crossings at all even better. then they can run remote controll trains for ever and there wont be any train crews to be on here. just head on collisions and haz-mat release with nobody to report this so people can die at night in their sleep. give and take here.

[edblysard]

HI,
And as a blonde going gray, with three blonde daughters, I took no offense. And yes, hitting them in the wallet instead of at the crossing would help. Heavy fines, and I mean to the extent the laws allows, (here its $2000.00 of two years jail) would wake up some of them, but the rest would keep the cell phone jamed in their ear. Those are the ones whom you cant get their attention until you hit them, and then its too late. And I'd like to see that steerable locomotive, you bet I would! And I agree, the small, limited amount of education we, as a industry offer, is very lacking, both in its content and audience. We only spend a few minutes showing outdated, unrealistict films to a bunch of teenagers who would rather be anywhere else but there in class. And those seem to be the ones most involved in accidents.
Shame..
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ah, Thanks, Ed, for bringing this side of it up. At another railroad forum to remain nameless, (no, not TO,) we had a nice discussion of this. How about some of these:

Make grade crossing violations a major ticketable offense. Result? Increased enforcement by traffic patrols.

Make grade crossing improvements a financial responsibility of the local jurisdiction. Right now the railroad (in Oreogn anyway) is usually the payer of costs for new signals. If a city has to pay for them, then maybe there would be greater incentive for reducing crossings, or for signalizing them, through the annual CIP process.

Place stop signs at all unsignaled rural crossings. Simple traffic rules are easy enough to understand. it's cheap, and it might save a few lives.

Best,

Alexander in Oregon

PS. Not an engineer, but I know some, and boy, do they have some nutty stories to tell! Some drivers....

[Anonymous]

Ok Ed, let's try this again!! My girl & I drove a good 500 miles here in SE Wisconsin & Northern Illinois over the last week trying to find a "Ultra Hazardous" X-ing.....here is what we found. All the ones that I would expect to be dangerous had a crapload of signs posted on or near the X-ing. It's amasing just how effective a simple STOP sign is!! The one crossing that sticks out is one that has high visiblity of the tracks to the side but is ontop of a hill. The slaped a Stop sign on it, so you dont have any excuse not to stop. I remember this one because some kids (yea I was dumb at one time too!)used to FLY over this hill. Unfortunetly on a few of these X-ings they never landed properly an lost control.....paying the ultimate price.

What Im still trying to figure out is why sue the RR for personal reasons. If I lost relation due to a car-train collision, the first thing I'm asking is "Can I visit the Engineer?" If some one can answer the question "What happened?" Thats is the only person who WILL have the answer, take it or leave it. Next If these people who are involved in collisions need to visit schools and public malls(where permitted) and hold speaches or pass out flyers to send this message a little stronger to home. Why sue the crap out of the railroad? Instead ask for money for PSAs, school speaches and for booths at the local malls!

I never seen booths or meetings in my schools or local malls, but Im positve it will make you look twice after seeing photos of the damage done. As for PSA's, remember when do YOU go to the fridge to get a beer..Yep..during commercial breaks. If there was PSA's durring primetime tv, this would help send the word. But little$ is spent on education(at least to me). I NEVER seen a LIFESAVER comercial on MTV or on the SPEED channel. I know about AFLACK! and to wear a rubber, but nothing about Stop, Look, Listen, Live!!

One thing that I do know, common sense is getting less common. If lights are red STOP. If not take a glance to your sides. At any crossbuck slow down to look BEFORE crossing. There is a reason the signs are there..It's for us.

The worst thing I've seen is pedestrians walking straight into a train at full speed. Yes bodies do bounce very far if hit by a massive loco!! Dispite stop lights flashing and horns blaring..I watched the video in horror while a man and a women approched the train station's ped. X-ing. He stoped...she didnt even know what hit her( so sad:( ). Apparently she thought the lights was for the parked train unloading passengers atleast thats what they said on the news.

If it seems like Im ranting to much, Im sorry!! It just is truely sad that 50 diferent people had to respond to a topic that we should not even have. REMBER Common sense is getting LESS common!!
Have a SAFE and happy '03-Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[edblysard]

Hi Iceman,
I have seen the same video clip, and whats even more shocking, and shows how fast this can happen, is the man dosnt even realize his friend has been hit. And the personel injury lawyer steers the suvivors to follow the money. You cant sue the road planners, or the city, state or county goverment that decided a pair of crossbucks is enough. You could sue the engineer, but he has no money to speak of, so that leaves the carrier...So your more than welcome to rant, and make sure you do so to a few of those high flying kids, if you get the chance. And your right about the common sense, it does seem to be less common nowadays.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Thank you Ed,
Very constructive letter Ed, you once again have hit the nail on the head. I sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding of the attitude that you may think I have about the average "joe" who is employeed by the railroad. This problem is way above all of us average "joes" and is most likely centered in the board rooms and executive offices of these companies who are looking to maximize profit. The wonderful thing to remember is that us average folks CAN make a difference by constructive discussions such as your letter. I think increasing public awareness that 'some' crossing are more dangerous than others and to let them see for themselves that not all railroads have all there ducks in a row will do wonders for changing our attitudes about crossing those tracks and even possibly put a little concern back into the board rooms and executive offices.
Mike

[Anonymous]

Incredible idea Ed, I'm sure you'll have the support from your company as long as it doesn't involve the spending of money. In the meantime just continue with the current mentality of barreling down the track at 55mph thinking the company is doing everything they can in regards to crossing safety and all those goofballs that are crossing in front of you are just trying to kill themselves.
Mike

[wabash1]

Hey mike you need to get the facts straight. on eds job if he gets to 30mph he lucky, at least on the terminal rails i seen that be max speed. it is people like myself I am a engineer and my max speed is 60mph. and yes we have done everything but drive the car of the person who is trying to kill themselves. So while i keep having close calls with people who lack common sense ( who need to see more track to see if they can get more time to beat me ) i will continue to have close calls. Common sense is rare in todays world maybe these people will live to use it some day. mike do you get the idea your message if falling on deaf ears. The feeling is correct. couse i dont care and as long as you think you are attacking me you wont get know where either. see if you want something from a railroader you bring facts not wishy washy . I will close by saying that the persons life i might save today in not hitting them at a crossing be someone in your family..... god knows we never hear the end of you then.

Ed also my hair is black and turning grey also. at least its not falling out......yet!!!!

[Anonymous]

Hey Mike, have you ever tried to out run a train, only to look behind right where you where is now the second car of a train? If you did then maybe you'd realize just how farout you realy are! It scared the crap out of me, Ill never do it again!

Yea Im a little younger and I race around here & there. It's only fun on a closed circut! If I get killed in a street race, my mommy and daddy are not sueing the producers of "Need For Speed". It's the movie..it taught me how to crash a crossing gate to beat a train. They would say Im a frikin idiot for racing on the street in the first place!! But guess what that is a lawsuit that is pending right now!!!

Common sense is getting.........
Duh waht was i syaing??
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[csxns]

Mike Papula why dont you sue everybody here for not thinking like you.Sorry Ed for getting off track here.

[Anonymous]

Ed, I do not work for the railroad I hope you do not mind me making a suggestion. Here in Illinios Operation Lifesaver has been working very close with State and Locale officials to identify those crossing's that are more frequently abused by gate runner's. They have come up with some simple and inexpencive idea's. One of the most simplest was to install inexpensive lane deviders to keep peaple from getting into the other lane to drive around gates. Another idea was to simply insall 4 crossing gates instead of 2 (2 on each side of the track). They have also installed stop sign's at several crossing's. In Mundeline Ill. they have installed air horns on the gate crossing poles in an effort to direct the noise of the horn more toward the automotive driver. All of these idea's have been helped along by Operation Lifesaver. Let me state one more time I do not work for the railroad, I hope I have not UPSET anyone.
TIM ARGUBRIGHT

[Anonymous]

Sounds Great Tim, its good to hear it!!! Were did you come across this info. I would like to see what is going on in my state. Your positive approach didn't upset me but thrilled me to hear it!!
Mike

[Anonymous]

You must be a big-time railfan with a handle like that. How about doing a little unbiased research on your own. I have promised Ed to man some crossings and watch. I know all about the crazy drivers it seems to be getting worse everyday, sadly there isn't much help for them. I would like the ones who aren't trying to kill themselves by driving absolutley wreckless.
Mike

[csxns]

Mike every time i am at a crossing the drivers sees me and probley think i am a cop.So i hide in the bushes and if anybody sees me they may think i am a terrorist.

[wabash1]

To reafirm the statement made by you. You want to help the ones who are not trying to kill themselves . those are not the ones that need help. those are the ones that stop at crossing when the lights are on. or they here a horn. its the ones that may not be trying to kill themselves but make bad judgments everyday in driving if they beat trains they are the ones that go thru red lights at intersections only becouse its been red only a few seconds. everytime i see your post i laugh as its getting humorous to see the same thing over and over again from you. and for your benifit the editor is telling you nicely to drop the issue.

[Anonymous]

I am glad that you liked what you read there. Let me point out some key words there. STATE AND LOCALE OFFICIALS. Operation Lifesaver is a success in Illinios because it has support of State and Locale officials. If it is not working in your state or area it is because it is not getting the support it needs. So please, Don't blame Operation Lifesaver, Don't blame the Capitalistic Corporate Monsters, Don't blame the railroad workers. Blame who is really responsible for the safty of these railroad crossings. Your State and Locale Officials. For without there support Operation Lifesaver will not work. Good day Sir.
TIM ARGUBRIGHT

[edblysard]

Tim, re read my post, not only do I want to hear from you, but I value your ideas and suggestions. Just to let you know, I flat forgot about lane dividers, but you didnt, and they do work. This site is designed for people just like you, who want to learn more about railroading. So what did you think about a grass roots pu***o make dividers and double gates mandatory and busy crossings? Do you have any idea how to start such a thing? I havent the foggest idea...
Keep asking and suggesting things, yo have a sharp mind, and ask good questions...
Ed

[edblysard]

I dont care what color mine turns out, as long as it stays where it is....the wife say Im scruffy and shaggy looking, Yeaaahhh baby...
Stay frosty, and thanks for pointing out the speed thing. I kinda took offense at his stating engineers "speed". I wonder if he knows about the event recorder?
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed, Thanks for opening this post. There are so many fine, constructive ideas expressed here, it's hard to come up with another one. What about AAR sponsorship of prime time OL ads, say how about one during Super Bowl 2 minute warnings or late half timeouts. Maybe Oprah or Dr. Phil could speak to their fans as well. Another sore spot with me are commercials using trains and hot cars or batteries that start all the time allowing a close escape. We would call that a near miss. Most railroads now prescreen such ads, but I've seen some that are absolutely horrible.
But what I really want to opine here is the recognition of the other victims of crossing accidents...the train crews and especially the engineers. You never forget the incidents. You learn to live with them and realize that there was nothing more that you or anyone else could have done. I am loathe to start war stories, but the look on a person's face in the last second of their life is poignant. gdc

[Anonymous]

Ed, what does "stay frosty" mean? gdc

[edblysard]

Stay cool....and dont let him get to you...
Ed

[edblysard]

That it is, more so when they have no choice in whats happening to them, and the one person they trust and belive the most lets them down.
So who do we speak to about these ideas? Seems like quite a few good ones have come to light, so where do we go from here?
Stay frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Stay frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

You know, I almost think you either cant comprehend, or just dont bother with facts. All of my railroad falls within "yard limits" and our max speed is 20mph. When that little girl got killed, my engineer had pluged the train brakes, put it in emergency application, and the event recorder show 9.25 mph impact. But when two switch locomotives, each weighing 254000 lbs each, and 50 loaded plastic hoppers hit something at 9.25 mph....
So before you twist what I said into something else, you might want to read all the information posted. And you still havent answered who, what when or where. Afraid of getting sued yourself, kinda sucks dosnt it!
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi again gdc,
Just read both Paul and Tom's post in regards to our somewhat myopic contributer. As much as I love the concept of free speech, and as much as I like a good argument, I agree with both of them, in that a lot of really goood and fine railroaders and fans have allowed this guy to get under our skin badly enought that we are letting out emotions overide our common courtsey, and our common sense. Because I dislike forced censorship in any form, I would like to proprose a even simpler solution. Lets all agree to not respond to him any more. As long as we do, we allow him to manipulate our course of discussion, and he keeps dragging us back into his arena. He has referred to his employment with a goverment agency, but refuses to state which one. Sounds sorta scarry huh? FRA?, FBI? Treasury? Dog catcher? Get real, I worked for The Attorney General, State of Texas for years. If he hasnt done anything against his agencies policy, or broken any state or federal laws, he should be proud to inform us of who he is and where he works. I havent hidden who I am, or what state agency I worked for, by the way, I was a child support officer, special locate division, my job was to hunt down absent parents, moms and dads both, folks, and I am darn proud of it! I have repeatedly asked him for details, which he fails to provide, or just ingnores. It would appear he has no intent of entering into a reasoned conversation with us, the fans and workers who love trains, railroads, and the way cresote smells on a summer day. His entire thread is full of misquotes, half facts, and most disturbing, thinley veiled insults to us, to engineers in paticular, and, by default, all railroaders in general. He has accused all of us, through our assocation with railroading of negligent homicide. After several well thought out responses from not only myself, yourself, j, and others, and several hints from the people who have provided both him and us with this forum, his retoric has, at least from my point of view, run itself out. So, in that light, I think I will cease to respond to him, and instead concentrate on the issue of this post, gathering ideas from fans, and railroaders, as to what we feel can be done to reduce crossing accidents. Any trainmasters, yardmasters, line supers out there who may have a line into who manages your railroads advertising market? Think they would help in a local educational ad? How about a fund pool to buy a national spot in the 5:30 news programs?
Lets talk it up, not down to this guys level anymore.
And my thanks to the fine gentlemen, youeself in paticular, who have already provided great ideas, and shared your vast range of experience, along with providing points of intrest from their own experiences. You listening Tim A? Keep on asking, this is for you guys too!
Stay Frosty,,,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ed!! We can finaly get pass this speedbump and hit the problem head on ( NO PUN INTENDED!!). Ive only seen OLS booths at the train shows here in Wisconsin. Not at the race track, not at the car shows, or any mall ....train shows.

Call me stupid, but most Railfans/Employees already understand to respect these giant beast. Its the family of 4 who are in a ru***o see Grandma, Or the kid showing off just how cool his pimp ride is. These are the people that need to be reached. Law enforcement, OLS, AND the local RR's need to get this point across at places that THESE people will be. Im not shure just how we got so PO'd over a few remarks, but all nonsense aside how can you sell common sense? I did not see it at the hobby store, or the car part store. Why because YOU must learn this lesson.

Recently I heard that a railfan was hit and killed here in Milwaukee in the "Hiawatha Corridor". Its no suprise to see Amtrak trains reach 80 mph here...So why was he on the tracks? Again and it realy hurts to say it COMMON SENSE!! The railroad's post NO TRESSPASSING signs to PROTECT us..from ourselfs.

Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[wabash1]

I was only trying to make the guy like ed was to state the facts. As far as i am concerned he gave me his side of the story and i did reply to it. Now for the good news or the news he wanted but i wouldnt give. here on the ns are super 5 years ago wanted not only crossing with apparent traffic increase he wonted places in which he himself with ol could go and teach the maening of stop look and listen. if truck traffic increased they wanted to know so they could go out and talk to drivers and tell them about the speeds and the dangers in a friendly way. believe me it helped. but there still is more to teach. we as employees and the railroads have done all we can do, now its time for the law inforcment to do thier job.

[Anonymous]

Just be sure not to take your Koran with you.

[Anonymous]

Thats about what I would expect from this magazine. Its so easy to just say stop even though the law is contrary to that belief. I think a stop sign at every crossing is a great idea. So you don't think bad judgements can be made by drivers who come to a crossing the can be improved and if improved would make these bad judgements a little more forgiving? Give me a break, you must be a shareholder. $1500 of right of way clearing on 70ft. of there property could of prevented this bad judgement. There is no excuse for that.
Mike