Railroaders ideas to improve crossing safety

[wabash1]

Ed it seems this is a lost couse. education is by far not working all that well. and the ones who should be reading this are probley at a porn site. the deal is you get bleeding hearts liberal come hear to state something with no facts i am still waiting for the place where this accident occured. the rail involved. i been to these mickey mouse courts in the acidents. in the acidents i been to the railroad was not allowed to bring in any evidance contrary to the evidence the prosecution had. we would have one the case but we was banned to do anything but take a beating. at one acident the woman claimed she stopped short of the crossing and the train steered over to her and hit her. duha. (yes she was blonde. and dont flame me i am married to a blonde and 2 blonde children i am not blonde) and not all blodes are dum. until we get into their pocket book and get away from this rush -rush society we live in this wont go away. over passes would be the way to go. no crossings at all even better. then they can run remote controll trains for ever and there wont be any train crews to be on here. just head on collisions and haz-mat release with nobody to report this so people can die at night in their sleep. give and take here.

[edblysard]

HI,
And as a blonde going gray, with three blonde daughters, I took no offense. And yes, hitting them in the wallet instead of at the crossing would help. Heavy fines, and I mean to the extent the laws allows, (here its $2000.00 of two years jail) would wake up some of them, but the rest would keep the cell phone jamed in their ear. Those are the ones whom you cant get their attention until you hit them, and then its too late. And I'd like to see that steerable locomotive, you bet I would! And I agree, the small, limited amount of education we, as a industry offer, is very lacking, both in its content and audience. We only spend a few minutes showing outdated, unrealistict films to a bunch of teenagers who would rather be anywhere else but there in class. And those seem to be the ones most involved in accidents.
Shame..
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ah, Thanks, Ed, for bringing this side of it up. At another railroad forum to remain nameless, (no, not TO,) we had a nice discussion of this. How about some of these:

Make grade crossing violations a major ticketable offense. Result? Increased enforcement by traffic patrols.

Make grade crossing improvements a financial responsibility of the local jurisdiction. Right now the railroad (in Oreogn anyway) is usually the payer of costs for new signals. If a city has to pay for them, then maybe there would be greater incentive for reducing crossings, or for signalizing them, through the annual CIP process.

Place stop signs at all unsignaled rural crossings. Simple traffic rules are easy enough to understand. it's cheap, and it might save a few lives.

Best,

Alexander in Oregon

PS. Not an engineer, but I know some, and boy, do they have some nutty stories to tell! Some drivers....

[Anonymous]

Ok Ed, let's try this again!! My girl & I drove a good 500 miles here in SE Wisconsin & Northern Illinois over the last week trying to find a "Ultra Hazardous" X-ing.....here is what we found. All the ones that I would expect to be dangerous had a crapload of signs posted on or near the X-ing. It's amasing just how effective a simple STOP sign is!! The one crossing that sticks out is one that has high visiblity of the tracks to the side but is ontop of a hill. The slaped a Stop sign on it, so you dont have any excuse not to stop. I remember this one because some kids (yea I was dumb at one time too!)used to FLY over this hill. Unfortunetly on a few of these X-ings they never landed properly an lost control.....paying the ultimate price.

What Im still trying to figure out is why sue the RR for personal reasons. If I lost relation due to a car-train collision, the first thing I'm asking is "Can I visit the Engineer?" If some one can answer the question "What happened?" Thats is the only person who WILL have the answer, take it or leave it. Next If these people who are involved in collisions need to visit schools and public malls(where permitted) and hold speaches or pass out flyers to send this message a little stronger to home. Why sue the crap out of the railroad? Instead ask for money for PSAs, school speaches and for booths at the local malls!

I never seen booths or meetings in my schools or local malls, but Im positve it will make you look twice after seeing photos of the damage done. As for PSA's, remember when do YOU go to the fridge to get a beer..Yep..during commercial breaks. If there was PSA's durring primetime tv, this would help send the word. But little$ is spent on education(at least to me). I NEVER seen a LIFESAVER comercial on MTV or on the SPEED channel. I know about AFLACK! and to wear a rubber, but nothing about Stop, Look, Listen, Live!!

One thing that I do know, common sense is getting less common. If lights are red STOP. If not take a glance to your sides. At any crossbuck slow down to look BEFORE crossing. There is a reason the signs are there..It's for us.

The worst thing I've seen is pedestrians walking straight into a train at full speed. Yes bodies do bounce very far if hit by a massive loco!! Dispite stop lights flashing and horns blaring..I watched the video in horror while a man and a women approched the train station's ped. X-ing. He stoped...she didnt even know what hit her( so sad:( ). Apparently she thought the lights was for the parked train unloading passengers atleast thats what they said on the news.

If it seems like Im ranting to much, Im sorry!! It just is truely sad that 50 diferent people had to respond to a topic that we should not even have. REMBER Common sense is getting LESS common!!
Have a SAFE and happy '03-Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[edblysard]

Hi Iceman,
I have seen the same video clip, and whats even more shocking, and shows how fast this can happen, is the man dosnt even realize his friend has been hit. And the personel injury lawyer steers the suvivors to follow the money. You cant sue the road planners, or the city, state or county goverment that decided a pair of crossbucks is enough. You could sue the engineer, but he has no money to speak of, so that leaves the carrier...So your more than welcome to rant, and make sure you do so to a few of those high flying kids, if you get the chance. And your right about the common sense, it does seem to be less common nowadays.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Thank you Ed,
Very constructive letter Ed, you once again have hit the nail on the head. I sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding of the attitude that you may think I have about the average "joe" who is employeed by the railroad. This problem is way above all of us average "joes" and is most likely centered in the board rooms and executive offices of these companies who are looking to maximize profit. The wonderful thing to remember is that us average folks CAN make a difference by constructive discussions such as your letter. I think increasing public awareness that 'some' crossing are more dangerous than others and to let them see for themselves that not all railroads have all there ducks in a row will do wonders for changing our attitudes about crossing those tracks and even possibly put a little concern back into the board rooms and executive offices.
Mike

[Anonymous]

Incredible idea Ed, I'm sure you'll have the support from your company as long as it doesn't involve the spending of money. In the meantime just continue with the current mentality of barreling down the track at 55mph thinking the company is doing everything they can in regards to crossing safety and all those goofballs that are crossing in front of you are just trying to kill themselves.
Mike

[wabash1]

Hey mike you need to get the facts straight. on eds job if he gets to 30mph he lucky, at least on the terminal rails i seen that be max speed. it is people like myself I am a engineer and my max speed is 60mph. and yes we have done everything but drive the car of the person who is trying to kill themselves. So while i keep having close calls with people who lack common sense ( who need to see more track to see if they can get more time to beat me ) i will continue to have close calls. Common sense is rare in todays world maybe these people will live to use it some day. mike do you get the idea your message if falling on deaf ears. The feeling is correct. couse i dont care and as long as you think you are attacking me you wont get know where either. see if you want something from a railroader you bring facts not wishy washy . I will close by saying that the persons life i might save today in not hitting them at a crossing be someone in your family..... god knows we never hear the end of you then.

Ed also my hair is black and turning grey also. at least its not falling out......yet!!!!

[Anonymous]

Hey Mike, have you ever tried to out run a train, only to look behind right where you where is now the second car of a train? If you did then maybe you'd realize just how farout you realy are! It scared the crap out of me, Ill never do it again!

Yea Im a little younger and I race around here & there. It's only fun on a closed circut! If I get killed in a street race, my mommy and daddy are not sueing the producers of "Need For Speed". It's the movie..it taught me how to crash a crossing gate to beat a train. They would say Im a frikin idiot for racing on the street in the first place!! But guess what that is a lawsuit that is pending right now!!!

Common sense is getting.........
Duh waht was i syaing??
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[csxns]

Mike Papula why dont you sue everybody here for not thinking like you.Sorry Ed for getting off track here.

[Anonymous]

Ed, I do not work for the railroad I hope you do not mind me making a suggestion. Here in Illinios Operation Lifesaver has been working very close with State and Locale officials to identify those crossing's that are more frequently abused by gate runner's. They have come up with some simple and inexpencive idea's. One of the most simplest was to install inexpensive lane deviders to keep peaple from getting into the other lane to drive around gates. Another idea was to simply insall 4 crossing gates instead of 2 (2 on each side of the track). They have also installed stop sign's at several crossing's. In Mundeline Ill. they have installed air horns on the gate crossing poles in an effort to direct the noise of the horn more toward the automotive driver. All of these idea's have been helped along by Operation Lifesaver. Let me state one more time I do not work for the railroad, I hope I have not UPSET anyone.
TIM ARGUBRIGHT

[Anonymous]

Sounds Great Tim, its good to hear it!!! Were did you come across this info. I would like to see what is going on in my state. Your positive approach didn't upset me but thrilled me to hear it!!
Mike

[Anonymous]

You must be a big-time railfan with a handle like that. How about doing a little unbiased research on your own. I have promised Ed to man some crossings and watch. I know all about the crazy drivers it seems to be getting worse everyday, sadly there isn't much help for them. I would like the ones who aren't trying to kill themselves by driving absolutley wreckless.
Mike

[csxns]

Mike every time i am at a crossing the drivers sees me and probley think i am a cop.So i hide in the bushes and if anybody sees me they may think i am a terrorist.

[wabash1]

To reafirm the statement made by you. You want to help the ones who are not trying to kill themselves . those are not the ones that need help. those are the ones that stop at crossing when the lights are on. or they here a horn. its the ones that may not be trying to kill themselves but make bad judgments everyday in driving if they beat trains they are the ones that go thru red lights at intersections only becouse its been red only a few seconds. everytime i see your post i laugh as its getting humorous to see the same thing over and over again from you. and for your benifit the editor is telling you nicely to drop the issue.

[Anonymous]

I am glad that you liked what you read there. Let me point out some key words there. STATE AND LOCALE OFFICIALS. Operation Lifesaver is a success in Illinios because it has support of State and Locale officials. If it is not working in your state or area it is because it is not getting the support it needs. So please, Don't blame Operation Lifesaver, Don't blame the Capitalistic Corporate Monsters, Don't blame the railroad workers. Blame who is really responsible for the safty of these railroad crossings. Your State and Locale Officials. For without there support Operation Lifesaver will not work. Good day Sir.
TIM ARGUBRIGHT

[edblysard]

Tim, re read my post, not only do I want to hear from you, but I value your ideas and suggestions. Just to let you know, I flat forgot about lane dividers, but you didnt, and they do work. This site is designed for people just like you, who want to learn more about railroading. So what did you think about a grass roots pu***o make dividers and double gates mandatory and busy crossings? Do you have any idea how to start such a thing? I havent the foggest idea...
Keep asking and suggesting things, yo have a sharp mind, and ask good questions...
Ed

[edblysard]

I dont care what color mine turns out, as long as it stays where it is....the wife say Im scruffy and shaggy looking, Yeaaahhh baby...
Stay frosty, and thanks for pointing out the speed thing. I kinda took offense at his stating engineers "speed". I wonder if he knows about the event recorder?
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed, Thanks for opening this post. There are so many fine, constructive ideas expressed here, it's hard to come up with another one. What about AAR sponsorship of prime time OL ads, say how about one during Super Bowl 2 minute warnings or late half timeouts. Maybe Oprah or Dr. Phil could speak to their fans as well. Another sore spot with me are commercials using trains and hot cars or batteries that start all the time allowing a close escape. We would call that a near miss. Most railroads now prescreen such ads, but I've seen some that are absolutely horrible.
But what I really want to opine here is the recognition of the other victims of crossing accidents...the train crews and especially the engineers. You never forget the incidents. You learn to live with them and realize that there was nothing more that you or anyone else could have done. I am loathe to start war stories, but the look on a person's face in the last second of their life is poignant. gdc

[Anonymous]

Ed, what does "stay frosty" mean? gdc

[edblysard]

Stay cool....and dont let him get to you...
Ed

[edblysard]

That it is, more so when they have no choice in whats happening to them, and the one person they trust and belive the most lets them down.
So who do we speak to about these ideas? Seems like quite a few good ones have come to light, so where do we go from here?
Stay frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

Stay frosty,
Ed

[edblysard]

You know, I almost think you either cant comprehend, or just dont bother with facts. All of my railroad falls within "yard limits" and our max speed is 20mph. When that little girl got killed, my engineer had pluged the train brakes, put it in emergency application, and the event recorder show 9.25 mph impact. But when two switch locomotives, each weighing 254000 lbs each, and 50 loaded plastic hoppers hit something at 9.25 mph....
So before you twist what I said into something else, you might want to read all the information posted. And you still havent answered who, what when or where. Afraid of getting sued yourself, kinda sucks dosnt it!
Ed

[edblysard]

Hi again gdc,
Just read both Paul and Tom's post in regards to our somewhat myopic contributer. As much as I love the concept of free speech, and as much as I like a good argument, I agree with both of them, in that a lot of really goood and fine railroaders and fans have allowed this guy to get under our skin badly enought that we are letting out emotions overide our common courtsey, and our common sense. Because I dislike forced censorship in any form, I would like to proprose a even simpler solution. Lets all agree to not respond to him any more. As long as we do, we allow him to manipulate our course of discussion, and he keeps dragging us back into his arena. He has referred to his employment with a goverment agency, but refuses to state which one. Sounds sorta scarry huh? FRA?, FBI? Treasury? Dog catcher? Get real, I worked for The Attorney General, State of Texas for years. If he hasnt done anything against his agencies policy, or broken any state or federal laws, he should be proud to inform us of who he is and where he works. I havent hidden who I am, or what state agency I worked for, by the way, I was a child support officer, special locate division, my job was to hunt down absent parents, moms and dads both, folks, and I am darn proud of it! I have repeatedly asked him for details, which he fails to provide, or just ingnores. It would appear he has no intent of entering into a reasoned conversation with us, the fans and workers who love trains, railroads, and the way cresote smells on a summer day. His entire thread is full of misquotes, half facts, and most disturbing, thinley veiled insults to us, to engineers in paticular, and, by default, all railroaders in general. He has accused all of us, through our assocation with railroading of negligent homicide. After several well thought out responses from not only myself, yourself, j, and others, and several hints from the people who have provided both him and us with this forum, his retoric has, at least from my point of view, run itself out. So, in that light, I think I will cease to respond to him, and instead concentrate on the issue of this post, gathering ideas from fans, and railroaders, as to what we feel can be done to reduce crossing accidents. Any trainmasters, yardmasters, line supers out there who may have a line into who manages your railroads advertising market? Think they would help in a local educational ad? How about a fund pool to buy a national spot in the 5:30 news programs?
Lets talk it up, not down to this guys level anymore.
And my thanks to the fine gentlemen, youeself in paticular, who have already provided great ideas, and shared your vast range of experience, along with providing points of intrest from their own experiences. You listening Tim A? Keep on asking, this is for you guys too!
Stay Frosty,,,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ed!! We can finaly get pass this speedbump and hit the problem head on ( NO PUN INTENDED!!). Ive only seen OLS booths at the train shows here in Wisconsin. Not at the race track, not at the car shows, or any mall ....train shows.

Call me stupid, but most Railfans/Employees already understand to respect these giant beast. Its the family of 4 who are in a ru***o see Grandma, Or the kid showing off just how cool his pimp ride is. These are the people that need to be reached. Law enforcement, OLS, AND the local RR's need to get this point across at places that THESE people will be. Im not shure just how we got so PO'd over a few remarks, but all nonsense aside how can you sell common sense? I did not see it at the hobby store, or the car part store. Why because YOU must learn this lesson.

Recently I heard that a railfan was hit and killed here in Milwaukee in the "Hiawatha Corridor". Its no suprise to see Amtrak trains reach 80 mph here...So why was he on the tracks? Again and it realy hurts to say it COMMON SENSE!! The railroad's post NO TRESSPASSING signs to PROTECT us..from ourselfs.

Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[wabash1]

I was only trying to make the guy like ed was to state the facts. As far as i am concerned he gave me his side of the story and i did reply to it. Now for the good news or the news he wanted but i wouldnt give. here on the ns are super 5 years ago wanted not only crossing with apparent traffic increase he wonted places in which he himself with ol could go and teach the maening of stop look and listen. if truck traffic increased they wanted to know so they could go out and talk to drivers and tell them about the speeds and the dangers in a friendly way. believe me it helped. but there still is more to teach. we as employees and the railroads have done all we can do, now its time for the law inforcment to do thier job.

[Anonymous]

Just be sure not to take your Koran with you.

[Anonymous]

Thats about what I would expect from this magazine. Its so easy to just say stop even though the law is contrary to that belief. I think a stop sign at every crossing is a great idea. So you don't think bad judgements can be made by drivers who come to a crossing the can be improved and if improved would make these bad judgements a little more forgiving? Give me a break, you must be a shareholder. $1500 of right of way clearing on 70ft. of there property could of prevented this bad judgement. There is no excuse for that.
Mike

[Anonymous]

Your company has not done all it can do. With the help and support of law inforcement that side can be supported as well. It is a joint effort

[cabforward]

thanx to ed for inviting me to this site.. and compliments to him for the post he recommended to me.

**maybe new technology is the way to cope with "idiots du jour" (today's idiots), but i cant think of a better way to reduce crossing-violations than to have double gates at locations which appear to need them (no. of trains, speed, mult. tracks, etc.). hard barriers would be erected at the pedestrian end of the gates to prevent driving-around them. cameras would photograph violators caught-in-the-act. where cameras cant be used to prosecute a violator of the law, pictures could be used by the r.r. to create a database where the image of the vehicle can be stored and recalled later to compare when it appears the same vehicle has repeated the violation. a record of repeat violations by the same vehicle might persuade lawmakers to authorize law enforcement to prosecute violators.

it used to be safety measures were required to protect people against dangerous machinery. it probably started with the first mill that ground wheat next to a river. now, it has become a nightmare as business must protect people against their own stupidity: spilling hot coffee, eating fattening food, smoking.

europe has a very good gate warning system. i was there '61-'64. gates are lowered which have a rigid underhanging grillwork which prevents anything from passing underneath. many of these locations are manned by one person who physically lowers the gates. how their govt. can afford that is beyond me. because many of the gate structures are large and to conserve space, gates may swing onto the path of the roadbed when no trains are near. when a train approaches, the gate swings 90 degrees to block highway traffic on both sides. this is also a manned operation.

[Anonymous]

Here in Illinios they expiremented with a crash net. If censor's detected a car heading towards the tracks it would drop a net to try to stop the vehical. They could not get the net to drop fast enough so they canceled it. They spent a lot of money trying to get it to work. A taxpayer group got a little angry but when they found out that most of the funding was coming from the railroads they quited down. (The source of this was a article in the Chicago Tribune can not remember the date. It was in the transportation Sunday section). Did anyone else from Chicago recall that article?
TIM A

[Anonymous]

Hey Ed, great idea. He has the right to freedom of speech, but he doesn't have the right to be heard or listened to. Kudos.

As for what to do now? Getting stop signs plunked into unprotected crossings could probably be done fairly cheaply. In my area the corssings are almost 100% gated, and there it's an issue of violators. In that case I think it's an issue of enforcement from the police. I'd usggest a letter pointed towards the city mananger, or in rural areas, to the Sheriff's office, asking what the law is regarding crossings, i.e. is it a ticektable offense? If it is *not*, a pu***o make it one would not be difficult. (Have you ever heard of a local government turning down an idea for another $500 ticket?)

Getting middle lane barriers built is cheap too. In Oregon, it's the law if the road is a three laner. To get them installed, target roads which are busier, and talk to the City Engineer, or to the Land Use & Transportation driector (or equivilant) in your local county.

Also, try contacting the state DOT and asking for the Rail Division. You can probably get a contact there and ask what programs your state has for grade crossing improvements. They are usually a very friendly lot.

It's going to be easier to get improvements made to a road if it has high traffic, or if it is near a school, BTW.

Best,

Alexander Craghead
Portland, Oregon, USA

[edblysard]

Hey Alexander,
A funny thing happened to me today, and durn it, just after I told everybody I wouldnt respond to that guy again. It seems a crossing, just at the south end of our receiving tracks, was newley desiginated by the local school district as the crossing the school buses have to use to serve a small neighborhood tucked away between two major roads. Because, and get this, its safer than using the crossings at the major intersections, because of the gate crashers running around the buses to beat the trains...this crossing has never had and type of protection device, ever, because it was on PTRA property, and only lead to a access road behind our tracks. Three years ago, the city connected a side street to it, but refused to put a protection device in, as the road "saw little if any traffic except railroad personel". And of coures, everyone who lived in this small neighborhood has used this crossing ever since. So we got in the habit of dragging past the crossing, and allowing the people in the neighborhood to get by when we drag a switch cut out. We even flag the crossing, and will wait till they get by before shoving back to the yard. That idea came from our callous, arrogant and uncaring General Manager. Well, surprise, after two years or so, the school district decided the un-protected crossing was safer than the one with the gates and bells, not because of trains, but because of the drivers. After we heard of this, us uncaring brutes talked to the city ,our member lines, and the school district. So, at our expense, with the city planners blessing, lo and behold, as of today, this crossing has a brand spanking new double arm gate on both sides of the track, with cameras to record gate crashers, lights, bells and and a new concrete crossing pad and approach at track head height, along with several new warning signs on both approaches to the crossing. You wont belive how much I want to tell that guy to park it where the sun dont shine.
What a uncaring, ingnorant bunch we are.
Ed

[Anonymous]

Oh man. I know, and what seems all the worse is that basically the city, for putting in the road, "forced" the company into an improvement, i.e. created a situation that needed a resolution. It reminds me of when Portland regraded the road in front of my grandparent's house many many many years ago. By taking down the grade, they stranded the garage, and the car in it, ten plus feet above the new road! Typical thinking, alas.

Locally my city, (not Portland, but a burb to the SW,) wants to pu***hrough two new roads accross the railroad tracks, even as those tracks are expected to see a four fold increase in traffic over the next 5 years. They don't see why ODOT Rail and the railroad oppose their idea, and they think that an overpass is just foolish over-reaction.

Cameras to catch gate crashers? Hmm... a not unappealing idea....

~Alexander
Not an employee, relative, or stockholder. (Not that those would make a difference.)

[Anonymous]

You guys are right as usual!! I noticed in northern Illinois some of the X-ings acualy have an amber flashing 'X'. I dont know if is for the RR or us dumb motorist, but I do know it caught my attention. Most of the crosings in that area is realy "overdone" to get the point across..(example)..wabit tracks Duh TRAIN tracks. Another idea is to use a reflective saftey yellow painted on ALL X-ings going back to the "how the....did you not see this" theme. Remember SSS Sweet Simple Stupid!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Icemanmike, by chance did you read something in the paper up there about the netcatcher crossing system? ( I live in Buffallo Grove Ill. I heard they were still trying to make it work in Wis.) Also most of those improvments up there came about because several rail union's complained about the bad crossing's to several local official's.

[edblysard]

Hi guys,
seems we gathered a few good ideas here. So where do we go now? I like the Oprah and Dr Phil thing, due in part to the moms who would be watching. And the center barricade and the hard barricade at the sides or edges makes a lot of sense, along with the hanging rods from the gates to prevent drive unders. On the Oprah/ Phil thing, is there any footage of a grade crossing accident from the cab that you guys know of? I bet if someone could get it on the Oprah show, with a railroader explaining whats going on, a lot of moms would see, and understand. And you know how moms are....also, we need someone to find a list of state representatives, congressmen, senators, those who we could post their e-mail address so that anyone who wanted to could write. Now I know that they dont read their e-mail, one of their aids do, but if they got enough of it, the aids would bring it to their attention. And those of us who live near or know of a crossing that you think needs improvement, find out what representatives district it is in, and contact him/her. Explain what the problem is, and ask for their help. Post what their reply is, and tell them your going to do so. Public opinion is a powerful tool, if used repeatedly. And contrary to a certain persons belife that operation lifesaver is a fraud, contact the nearest chapter, or your local railroad, and see if you cant get them to do a demo at your local highschool, its about time for the drivers ed classes to begin. If we can get the attention of only one kid, well, thats one less we have to worry about. Keep sending ideas, so far, all of these are really good...
Ed

[Anonymous]

If there was a netcatcher system, someone would end up stealing the net for smelt fishing in Lake Michigain:). Sorry I have not heard a peep from anyone/thing. I guess we all are perfect drivers and its not a problem up here! Yea and the Brewers will win the world series!!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Dear Ed,
Lets do it!!! Its time for some public exposure to this, you are right on the money. Not enough people are aware of the dangers. Does anyone here know Oprah or Phil? Please give them a call and tell them about this.
Mike

[Anonymous]

Tests fail; rail crossings to work without safety net
Chicago Tribune; Chicago, Ill.; Nov 11, 2001; Nicole Ziegler Dizon, Associated Press;

[Anonymous]

Your attitude stinks, but on a positive note your general manager deserves a pat on the back. As far as the local government, well thats another story. Just remember when the election comes up. Sounds though that they redeemed themselves somewhat. Did I ever call you anything specific? As I recall I said that it is much higher than a blue collar problem. Time to start hounding Congress about corporate responsibility.
Mike

[Anonymous]

Yet again I get attacked? Just what is a kid to do. Mike we are talking up ways to improve safety and you come in here to aruge? Either assist or dont say anything. It would save us all a huge hassle of being distacted of the real issues at hand!
Hey Ed, Is it just me or do the bells on some RR X-ings seem to be quieter then they where 5 years ago? Two more ideas would be repace the flashing red lights with red strobe lights. Also there has to be away to use more of those air horns like they do in N. Illinois.
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Statistics show the most effective crossing warning devices are cantilevered flashing lights combined with gates. If and when quad gates become more widely in use, they will probably usurp the cantilevers.
Have a safe day gdc

[edblysard]

Hi gdc,
Have you seen the anber lights mentioned in tims post?? I know I seem to notice the revolving hi intensity beacon light we have on the roof of our locomotives from a great distance, its white, almost the same as whats on police and emergency vehicles. Althought up close it may be too intense, a toned down version?
Ed

[edblysard]

They seem quiter to me also. Heres a good one for our friend. From the Southern Pacific Railroad, Eastern Region Timetable #7, effective sunday, october 29th, 1989. Page 70,under special instructions, "Rule 15. Lake Charles: City Ordinance prohibits sounding of engine whistle except where there is imminent danger of an accident. In observing this ordinance, engineer should sound whistle if in his judgement an accident may be prevented."
I guess they didnt like all that noise?
Of course, they would also sue the heck out of SP wheneven someone got hit. I am looking for more silly examples of us monsters trying not to protect people from themselves. By the way, does that make all crossings in Lake Charles ULTRA-HAZARDOUS? And by city ordinance at that! Oh, silly me, we must have bribed the city officals to let us not blow our horns, it would wake up you speeding engineers, blasting through the un mown right of way, not giving people the chance to judge if they have enough time to beat train to the crossings we all hear about. You know the goverment had to be in on this...
You stay frosty Iceman,
Ed

[Anonymous]

I've not seen one. gdc

[Anonymous]

Ugh, I know exactly what you mean here. The city gets complaints all the time from people about loud horns at night. Well would they rather have an increase in car crashes? Next they will want the Fire Department not to use it's sirens after 9pm!

Absolute lunacy. If a crossing gets a full barrier gate system, only then would I consider a "no horn" ordinance okay. But even then there must be provision for emergencies....

[edblysard]

Isnt that just about the nuttiest thing you heard of? So if your running long hood forward, and the engineer cant see the other side, wow, talk about dangerous. I also heard of a town here in Texas with a cerfew time for trains, I belive it was the am rush hour, although most samll towns in Texas, rush hour last about five minutes...I do know for a fact the a traffic cop in a little towm names Schertz, out side of San Antonio ticketed a train engineer for speeding, he radared him at a crossing, beat him to the next, blocked the crossing with his cruiser and ticketed him for exceeding the 30 mph speed limit in town. It went to a JP court, dismissed, but the cop stated the the crossing was city property, and the posted limit in the entire town was 30. The cop was known to have a grudge against the SP, seems his brother was dismissed, dont know what for. The conductor on the train worked here at the port when I hired on, when he finishes that story, everybody is about to bust a gut he tells it so well...
Ed

[Anonymous]

This one is off the rr topic but is right on the noise issue. Here there is one of the oldest race tracks in America "The Milwaukee Mile" in West Allis. The neighbors are complaining about the noise the race cars make. What noise isn't that music to your ears?? If the track was there when you moved in to your house, then what would make a person think it won't be there on race day? Sometimes I realy hate people..well at least the slow ones in the laft lane.
Icemanmike-Im in Milwaukee Im always frosty!!

[corwinda]

What I have noticed is that on newer crossings the bells only ring until the gates are all the way down. After that they shut off; leaving just the flashing lights. I think the red strobes would be worth an experiment

[Anonymous]

Red Strobes would be a good idea. We have some that are activated at intersections. You can't miss them. Why don't they have LED's instead of bulbs for the lights. LED's are brighter to the human eye and don't burn out.

[edblysard]

Partly due to the fact that the system in use now is so common, it works, its cheaper, and the designers know that the arms will, at some point, be run into by a car. LEDs of the type you speak of cost more to replace, and require more time to replace, plus the people who make the crossing arms and gate/ light post use the same parts in wayside signals, it cheaper to use common parts in all their products. Add it it lower voltage requirments of led would need a step down transformer, vs 120 volt light bulbs run off of city powerlines. Or the short version, its cheaper this way. If you want change, write you representive. As long as it economicaly to the manufactures advantage not to change, they wont. So apply a little political pressure, who know, we might get lucky.
Ed

[Jackflash]

Ed, I've been told by signal maintainers in the
past that the signals at crossings were low
voltage, it was a overlay system, 110 volts
to a battery charger to charge batterys,then a
low DC voltage to operate the system, this was
told to me a while back, I'm not a signal
maintainer, nor do I work with this kind of
equipment. Any maintainers out there who care
to add anything? jackflash

[edblysard]

They may be right, I have found a few bits here and there, and the bulbs in the arm lights seem to be 12vdc, has the same base as a #1156(brake light) automobile bulb, only the bulb was bigger.
Ed

[Jackflash]

Seems to reason, if the comercial power goes off
the signals will still work, a few times at least,
until the batteries run down. jackflash

[edblysard]

I think the battries are good for 24 to 48 hours. Dont know any maintainers either, but I will try to find out why the lower voltage bulbs. I think I know the answer, the element in lower voltage bulbs last longer, but I will ask anyway.
But you would think LEDs would last even longer, no carbonized element to burn up. It might be a cost/supply thing.
Ed

[Anonymous]

LED's offer very low power consumption and a signifigant increase in visibility and reliability. They would work out well with a floating DC power supply because with a loss of commercial power the time up would be longer as well. It probably does boil down to cost, but it worth a shot to look into. Who makes the equipment for the crossings. I was trying to find something on the web. I like the discussions about the dividers at the crossing to prevent drive arounds. I don't know why that isn't more common. It seems like a very good idea. Four quadrants are optimal, but dividers almost offer the same protection.

[csxns]

I have seen where people have torn up the dividers

[Anonymous]

Oh man Ed, that story is rich! Thanks for the laugh.

[edblysard]

Try union switch and signal, they make the wayside signals and the crossing gates used here at the port. And you just made me think of a magazine I read once, its a trade magazine called railway age, it was full of railroad electronics and such...
Ed

[edblysard]

If you ever meet a small town Texas cop, the story becomes more belivable...
Ed

[edblysard]

Do you think highway K rails would stand up? I watched a highway crew replace one, it took a good sized crane to move the thing. And it looks to be about the right size, with the number of the things used now days, their cost ought to be relatively cheap? And I have seen kids stopped at the crossing throwing rocks at the are lights to break them, out of boredom, I guess. Nothing better to do saterday night except tear things up...
Ed

[Anonymous]

I was a volunteer fireman in NC for about 10 yrs and one accident that stands out the most was a train vs truck. To make a long and rathering sickening story short, I was looking for the body of a female when I caught a sparkle from my flashlight. I approached it and radioed that I thought I had found the girl, when in fact all I had found was her left hand and a poriton of her arm. Later it was determined that her B.A.C. was .18, more than double the then legal amount. I hope her kid ended up with a good family.

In this area, if you get hit by a train, your just a frigging idiot.
Bud

[Anonymous]

Sounds like the Schertz TX police are about as competent as the Cookville TN cops.

[Anonymous]

Oh I don't doubt it! We've got some Oregon cops that might pull something along those lines too, tho your story by far ranks as one of the more unusual examples.

[Anonymous]

This seems to be a reverberating statement; Size does matter!! We can stop our cars-you can not stop a train....Isn't that a comercial ad (Nothing stops a trane) yet people keep ignoring the facts!!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[wabash1]

yes there is batteries to operate the signals after a power outage it is all run on dc current . they use bulbs at a voltage of 15-18 volts dc( at least here on the ns.) and depending on how long the outage is ive seen these systems last 1 week of normal traffic on batteries.

[Anonymous]

The ongoing theme here is that no matter how much we try to inform, warn, and educate the public, every time someone tries to beat a train, it's the railroad's fault when a collision occurs. A crying shame that personal responsibility has left our society. If someone dies at a grade crossing, perhaps we should console the train crew and not "victimize" the idiot who tried to beat the train to start with. A few minutes of your time is certainly not worth losing your life.

[edblysard]

Hi emory,
What it boils down to is that we seem to have come down to 2 concepts here, 1: educate the public, kids especialy, on the danger of trying to beat a train or driving around down gates, or 2: physicaly preventing someone from entering a crossing when a train is anywhere near. It seems as if we have to protect people from their own foolishness. What we need are your ideas on both concepts. Any ideas?
Ed

[Anonymous]

Hey people! If we are trying to inform the public then why don't we? All these sue happy people have a crapload of stuff that they try to push off on us...So why dont we do the same?
Im working on my first webpage. For links so far I have my favorite music channel, beretta.net (My CAR that carefully crosses the tracks :) ), and trains.com. I plan on trying to get OLS as a link on my page..as Im still learning how to put one together its just a matter of time! I figure with the cross traffic of planes, trains, automobiles and music. Its just a mater of when some one will be curious enough just to look. REMBER if they just glance..even for a second or two, you planted a seed. This seed will make people think (some times in the back of the mind) about the crossings. Hey it's the least that we can do for all sides of the track!!
I hope some of you have/are planning, or at least considered on doing the same!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[edblysard]

Well Duh!
All us bright guys, and the thought never occured to us....
So now I have to get my wife to show me how to do a web page, she says I am computer illiterate, and shes right. Has anybody found a lost of state reps e-mail addresses? Add that to your page so others can write them. Make public pest out of ourselves, they may just listen..good idea Iceman..
Stay Frosty
Ed
by the way, you pronounce my last name Blizzard, like the snowstorm...kinda funny, huh.

[wabash1]

I got ya beat ed. i haft to show my wife how to do all the computor stuff... right after i go to a friends house and have him show me how its done.

[edblysard]

Yeah, I guess I shoud have taken typing/computer repair in H/S instead of wood shop and metal shop. Nobody wants wood cabinets hand made any more, and you need two college degrees just to figure out how to tune up your car nowadays. My wife has a associate in computer languages, another one in business science,(what the heck is that, anyway?), and she just gave up on me, told me when I break it, just leave her a note telling her what the last thing I did was. So much depends on this silly machine now, I couldnt get rid of her now if I wanted to, who would fix this darn thing for me? But it does sit on a really gorgeous golden oak early American colonial desk, finished with four coats of PPG's DCA 468 lacquer. And she still cant cook as good as I do...
Stay Frosty
Ed

[Anonymous]

Hi Ed,
Recently, a major effort has been announced here by the local police agencies to crackdown on red light runners and speeders--I guess I should call their pulic affairs depts. to see if they can add grade crossings to the list. The police effort has gotten a lot of publicity and if they mention grade crossings it might get people to think. Also, stiffening the penalties for going around gates might help to deter some--especially after they get fined. Thanks, and keep up the good work Ed. emory

[edblysard]

Sounds great, here the fines are steep, you may check with your local PD, throw a couple of local tv new cameras in, and you can bet their pr dept you would jump on it...
Stay frosty
Ed

[Anonymous]

As a point of interest, Operation Lifesaver has changed a few of the cliches normally associated with grade crossings. One is from "Trains can't stop, you can", to "Trains can't stop quickly". A number of news reports and news documentaries gave the impression that trains don't stop at all. Of course, there's nothing more absurd. Another is from "Stop, Look and Listen" to "Look, Listen and Live". According to OL literature, someone who had just been to an OL presentation came upon a siding that crossed a main street. The driver did just what they had just heard and was rear-ended by the following vehicle. The incident resulted in civil litigation which prompted OL to change the wording. Just when you thought you've heard everything.....
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[edblysard]

Makes you wonder how "common" common sense is. Who would have though that a person would sue, and win, a company for selling coffee that was "too" hot..
Oh well,
Ed

[Anonymous]

For some odd reason Im not too suprised to hear that someone got rearended!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Hey Ed, hope all is going well down in TX. Did you know the company knew that the coffee was dangerously hot, yet in an effort to maximize 'profit' it was kept that hot. Did you know that as a result of this spilled coffee the person suffered thousands of dollars in medical bills. Did you know that they had hundreds of smaller incidents with people getting burnt and continued to keep it at that excessive temp. I didn't either. Its a perfect case of being single sided until you know the complete story. Please read this letter that follows. It is from someone who is also concerned about rail safety and wrote to the Senator for Texas.

The following is a letter sent to Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison

Greetings,

Still having deep roots in Texas , I write again. I continue to learn in my quest to become an effective rail safety advocate.

I know you have strong ties to the rail indsutry, and Operation Lifesaver. I wonder if you are aware of how slanted the message they present , really is? I hope not, and that you are willing to learn.

Operation Lifesaver gets their info from the railroads and FRA. FRA takes what the industry hands them. It is not a clear and full picture. I know that a grade rail crossings accident history , has to do with it's working it's way up a priority list for 'active protective devices'. When an accident does not show up on a crossing's accident history it's rather like a batter getting a free strike.

The crossing where my daughter was hit and killed, for even up to 4 years later; it's history showed NO accidents. There have been numerous accidents there. I had seen the debris from ours and one other 2 years before. Locals have told me of others. Only after contacting Tom Woll at FRA and bringing this to his attention , were even those 2 added to the history.

The thing that kept me thinking that LOOK , LISTEN and LIVE was enough to keep us safe, was we did also employ the STOP that OLI used to preach. This is a rural crossing, the county road T's into Hwy 287. At the time of the first wreck I saw the remains of , visability at the crossing was actually severly restricted, but as the BN never did any thing to change the apperance of the crossing, we all thought, 'the man hit just tried to beat the train'. After Jen was hit, I knew better, because of my history with friends being killed at grade rail crossings we were far more cautious than the average . It finally became apparent , we could not see far enough ( inadequate sight triangle ) to allow for the speed the trains going through the crossing. Only after we filed a wrongful death suit, did the BNSF come out and clean out the right of way , to allow a better opportunity to see the train coming. Texas laws speak of keeping right of ways cleared, mentioning of vegetation up to trees of 6 inches in diamater. They felled trees of more than a foot in diameter. Along with those wild plum trees that had grown up into the ballast.

Senator Hutchison, I know this is rather long, but I hope that something in here I relay to you gets your attention. The rail industry has pulled the wool over your eyes. The carnage continues because they are ,and have for decades behaved in a truely unresponsible manner. The numbers for grade rail crossing deaths are rising again, and that is with at least BNSF aggressively closing crossings. Train traffic is up and they refuse to maintain the clear line of sight necessary for safe passage over the danger area. The devices they use to activate flashing light, bells and gates fail. CFR's demand that FAILSAFE devices be used,and it is not being done.

It is just most of America does not understand the workings of the devices,and accept the term the rail industry has coined, mal-functioning.

I just went to the site of a crossing accident, resulting in the death of a vibrant young mother. Restricted visability, the tracks curve not far from the crossing, and beyond the curve , tracks nor train is visable. Track speed is 70 mph. Senator Hutchison, the school bus uses that crossing. And the local coverage of the accident lays all the blame for the accident at the drivers feet. Leaving all the local folks using that crossing believing that long as they drive in a prudent manner and look and listen, they will be safe. Actually they are playing Russian Roulette. Abet , unawares.

It has taken me years to acquire the ability to communicate with others on this subject , without rancor, and hopefully bring understanding of the underlying problem. Legislation must bring the rail industry to responsible corporate behavior. I pray you will be a leader in this quest.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ed
I'll take a look there

[Anonymous]

So the general concensus is that everyone is trying to beat a train. Pretty bold statement. Your right in part about personal responsibility, the railroad corporation being looked upon in the judicial system as a person takes absolutely no responsibility for any accident and the feds support this. Snow should fit in well at the Treasury:
CSX Executive’s Involvement in Questionable Corporate Practices Raises Serious Doubts About His Suitability for Cabinet Post

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Concerned about the prospect of a corporate executive involved in questionable business practices joining the Bush Cabinet, Public Citizen today filed records requests to obtain information about loans, stock sales, safety compliance and other matters involving John W. Snow, the Treasury Secretary nominee who for years headed CSX Corp.

The requests, filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), are an attempt to learn more about Snow’s policies as chairman and chief executive officer of CSX.

"As head of CSX, Mr. Snow apparently was involved in some of the same questionable practices that have come under scrutiny recently and even been outlawed by Congress," said Joan Claybrook, Public Citizen president. "We question whether a top corporate executive who abused his position by benefiting from insider deals will be a good public servant. We are filing this request so that before Congress votes on Mr. Snow, the public record can be clear and complete as to his ethical and safety performance as CEO of a major transportation company."

In the request to the SEC, filed under the Freedom of Information Act, Public Citizen seeks all records concerning loans from CSX to Snow and the forgiveness of those loans, sales of CSX stock by Snow, any SEC investigation into CSX matters, and all transactions between CSX and members of the company’s compensation committee. From the FRA, Public Citizen seeks all records concerning Snow’s role as a CSX executive, Snow’s involvement with the company’s lack of compliance with federal track safety standards, any enforcement actions against CSX since 1991, and Snow’s role in the negotiation and implementation of an April 2000 Safety Compliance Agreement between the company and the FRA, which came about after an FRA review of CSX tracks uncovered a number of safety problems.

Snow has been a beneficiary of many of the questionable corporate practices that came to light after the Enron scandal, according to news reports. CSX loaned Snow $24.5 million to purchase company stock valued at $32.3 million, but after the stock price dropped, the company forgave the loan. During his tenure, Snow received more than $50 million in compensation over 12 years even though profits fell and the stock didn’t do as well as the average U.S. company. Last year, he made $10.1 million in cash and stock grants and received stock options valued at $8 million. According to a Corporate Library survey, Snow is the third highest–paid chief executive among 37 transportation company CEOs.

Further, according to media reports, Snow sold 120,000 shares of CSX stock this year, less than a month before the company announced that its third-quarter outlook was not as rosy as it had first predicted. The stock price dropped, but Snow dumped the stock just in time to avoid losing approximately $750,000.

Additionally, Snow served on five other corporate boards, including NationsBank, where he helped set compensation for one of CSX’s outside directors.

"It would appear that Mr. Snow misused his position as CEO to gain benefits available to few others," Claybrook said. "How many CSX workers were able to obtain multimillion-dollar loans for stock purchases and have the loans forgiven?"

[Anonymous]

McFacts abut the McDonalds Coffee Lawsuit

Everyone knows what you're talking about when you mention "the McDonald's lawsuit." Even though this case was decided in August of 1994, for many Americans it continues to represent the "problem" with our civil justice system.

The business community and insurance industry have done much to perpetuate this case. They don't want us to forget it. They know it helps them convince politicians that "tort reform" and other restrictions on juries is needed. And worse, they know it poisons the minds of citizens who sit on juries.

Unfortunately, not all the facts have been communicated - facts that put the case and the monetary award to the 81-year old plaintiff in a significantly different light.

According to the Wall Street journal, McDonald's callousness was the issue and even jurors who thought the case was just a tempest in a coffee pot were overwhelmed by the evidence against the Corporation.

The facts of the case, which caused a jury of six men and six women to find McDonald's coffee was unreasonably dangerous and had caused enough human misery and suffering that no one should be made to suffer exposure to such excessively hot coffee again, will shock and amaze you:

McFact No. 1: For years, McDonald's had known they had a problem with the way they make their coffee - that their coffee was served much hotter (at least 20 degrees more so) than at other restaurants.

McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation - and yet they never so much as consulted a burn expert regarding the issue.

McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.

McFact No. 4: The woman, an 81-year old former department store clerk who had never before filed suit against anyone, said she wouldn't have brought the lawsuit against McDonald's had the Corporation not dismissed her request for compensation for medical bills.

McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.

McFact No. 6: After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company. When it came to the punitive damages, the jury found that McDonald's had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious, or wanton conduct, and rendered a punitive damage award of 2.7 million dollars. (The equivalent of just two days of coffee sales, McDonalds Corporation generates revenues in excess of 1.3 million dollars daily from the sale of its coffee, selling 1 billion cups each year.)

McFact No. 7: On appeal, a judge lowered the award to $480,000, a fact not widely publicized in the media.

McFact No. 8: A report in Liability Week, September 29, 1997, indicated that Kathleen Gilliam, 73, suffered first degree burns when a cup of coffee spilled onto her lap. Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.

The most important message this case has for you, the consumer, is to be aware of the potential danger posed by your early morning pick-me-up. Take extra care to make sure children do not come into contact with scalding liquid, and always look to the facts before rendering your decision about any publicized case.

[wabash1]

Mike here is something you are not aware of and most if not all engineers operate this way. there is no way i will put my train in emergency til i hit you. i make no throttle aadjustments to change anything i keep running like you wasnt there. why you might ask? simple with all the close calls we have we be in emergency all the time so we keep on moving . like nothing was there. it was hard at first but now it is second nature.

[Anonymous]

Ladies and Gentlmen, I am a bit confused, I thought the topic we were discussing was how to improve the safty of railway crossing's. Please I do not wi***o anger anyone, I would like very much to get back on that suject. Is there a Goverment department in charge of railroad safty? What, if any roll, does the Surface Transportation Board play in crossing safty?
TIM A

[edblysard]

Nor, really Tim, the surf board regulates the industry in that it rules on mergers, both in rail and air, sorta like the old ICC. It also rules on fair trade, ect. The FRA is mandated to deal with all issues of safty on railroads. It draws up rules and recommendations, and can issue citations and levee fines against both railroads as a company, the officers of railroads, and the operational employees, guys like me. The FRA requires things like a random, but mandatory drug testing program. Here at the Port, they require each of our officers to perform 100 safety test per month, in three catagories. Administration, raido rules, and operations. That means at least 3 times a month. I get tested on if I have my paperwork complete and correct, I use my radio correctly, with all the proper over and outs, job ID and such, and if I follow all the safety rules involved in operations. The FRA helps set guidlines for crossing devices also.
Thanks Tim, hope everyone remember what this post is about too!
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[Anonymous]

Had to throw in the McDonald tidbit because of the comments about the lawsuit. I thought the same until the complete story was told. Which is what corporate America does not want. Here is a portion of an email that I recieved:

Did I ever tell you what the first CSXT claims man said to me when I rang him... he told me; Mrs. O... we can kill as many as we want to.. that was a private crossing.

This I'm sure is not every railroaders attitude but seems to be a majority.
Mike

[Anonymous]

Maybe some drunk driver will take the same attitude with you or your family sometime when your out on the road and waiver for a millisecond or walking down the sidewalk and stumble.
My grandfather was a train engineer back when men were really men, and he would have killed himself to avoid killing anyone else, in his train, in is car, on his tractor or at any other time. Even during WW2 he was a corpsman, preserving the most valuable asset we can ever possess.....life.
I have been to train wrecks where body parts were strewn to the extent that they weren't even all recoverable. I would hate to think that some of them could have been prevented by whatever means and weren't. It would take a real low life sob to have that attitude, regardless of which end it was on.

[Anonymous]

On EVERY account I ever had with local rr it was just the opposite! The employees did not want to see myself or anyone else hurt...God forbid killed. Have you ever heard of the saying 'NOT ON MY SHIFT'? This is something I've heard in saftey rings and police deparments MANY times...Why because who wants to be the one who has to knock on your door and give your family the bad news, well..no one here thats for shure!
Lets not forget that most of us are railfans or work the rails. We all had our fair share of near misses and some (as sad as it is)even stared death straight in its face. No one my friend would do this type of thing intentionaly. If there is a dangerous X-ing in your area then contact your local government. If I had to deal with one I know I would, but there is none (localy) that has ever made me nervious enough to do so. It's up to the locals to make it the governments problem, because on man/woman cannot do so by themself! Again Im NOT pointing fingers but saftey is on all sides of the track. This is why OLS was made. Also I noticed that on www.oli.org that they have a list of officials to contact. That shows that there is a government attachment to this delemia. Did any one else put ols on there web pages? I did, will anyone click on the link...I dont know but aleast they have the option! Keep your bodys warm and your heads cool!!
Icemanmike-Milwaukee
If ya like check it out...
[e-mail]/tigger2brandi
Its not much but Im always looking for more links

[edblysard]

Iceman, dude,
dont let this guy get to you, he dosnt live in the real world anyway. Bet you he is a paralegal for that ambulance chaser who's web site he keeps promoting. Weird, that lawyer thinks having Ralph Naders Green Party endorse him is a plus...Hey, you know what a paralegal is, dont you, someone too stupid, or too lazy to pass their states bar exam. They wanted to be lawyers, but just cant hack it. Everytime you respond to his assinine posts, you just offer him the attention he seeks.
He is one of those who feel that everyone else is responsible for his safty, except himself. I bet you if the woman who sued McDonalds hadn't won there, she would have sued the auto maker for not installing a sturdy enough cup holder to prevent her kids from knocking over that cup of unreasonably hot coffee. Dont know about you, but where I come from, cold coffee sucks. All the grown ups here expect coffee to be hot, and I know if I spill it on myself, it will burn me. I also know enough to make my kids behave in the car, and am smart enough to put things like hot coffee, sharp knives, and firearms somewhere where the little kids cant get to them. Notice this guy keeps using lawyers catch phrases like "unreasonably" hot? Thats lawyer speak for, "yes, we know coffee is suppost to be hot, we just want to sue you, thats our business, so the best we could come up with is "unreasonably" hot. So I guess if this coffee was a few degrees colder, there would have been no suit? How hot is "unreasonably" hot? 180*F? 230*F?
Is obvious that this person has adopted the mind set of most religous fanatics, in that hes right, and if you dont agree with him, your wrong and your evil. He gets uptight when someone calls him something he feels is insulting, but didnt he just call all of us railroaders murders? He acts all suprised that I would take offense to that. His actions show that, because he lacks information on both sides of a issue, and only wants to see his side anyway, the only recourse he has is to call you names, he lacks the skill, knowledge, or common sense to debate any issue intelligently, so he resorts to childlish name calling to get the attention he wants. Treat him the same way I treat my fifteen year old, when she acts like a twerp to get attention, ingnore him, it bugs the heck of people like them. As long as you respond to his twerpey, one sided, ill informed and inflammatory drivel, he has a forum to present his fanatical garbage in. If you ingnore him, maby he will go to another site, like Toys 'R' Us, where he really belongs, and pester them about unreasonably, and ultra dangerous toys.
Stay Froast Iceman...
Ed

[Anonymous]

Ed and everyone,
While it would amount to hearsay, this person could use things that are posted here to litigatory advantage, i.e. "This is wht railroaders are talking about". Or it could be used in an adverse public relations ploy. Everyone be careful, I believe this person is watching all these types of posts. He also doesn't mind being provacative or making pointed comments, absurd though they may be. Once again he seems to be using profanity. Ed, your comments to ignore this person, no matter what is said, are still valid.
Regards and have a safe day. gdc

[edblysard]

Point taken, subject closed.
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[MP57313]

I am not with OLS, but a former colleague does work with them in Southern California. He had been displaying a poster will a grouping of snapshots showing risky behavior (man acarrying a bike over a stopped train at a crossing) and fatal results (smashed car and a body covered by a sheet), and several more on the same subject.

He is now forbidden from showing that poster because it could be too disturbing if one of the victim's family members or friends happened to see the pictures.

As for preventing accidents...four quadrant gates could help, but just in the past week a bicyclist rode around these in South L.A. and has hit and seriously injured.

As for railfans getting killed on the right of way...that is rare, but sometimes the unexpected happens. Years ago there was an article (in Trains) where a photographer in double-track territory had set up on one track, expecting the train to come on the other, and they "guessed wrong" because they didn't know the other track was temporarily closed for maintenence.

For changing behavior...good luck! But one thing I noticed in the Denver area, for some spur lines they use normal traffic lights instead of grade crossing signals and gates. Car drivers are more familiar with regular traffic lights so maybe people are more likely to stop for a red light than at a rail crossing.

[wabash1]

and in your opinion you might be right but if you ever get a chance to ever ride up front and see what is going on well then you change your attitude. in your car how many times do you stop when you see someone about to pull out in front of you or does pull out in front of you. ill answer that for you .... never you raise your foot off the gas. and cover the brake. but you didnt stop. do that next time full stops. couse when you get the air on a train that is what will happen a full stop at every crossing. I have not been to train wrecks we dont run trains into each other on our division. but i have been to car vs train and truck vs train and tresspasser vs train. first hand. and after 20 years in transportation no accident is pretty. You insist on thinking as most people do that we have control of they way people are going to act at crossings and that we can stop or steer out of your way, or even get your mode of transportation out of the path of us. in reality we cant. that is why they call them acidents couse someone made a mistake ( the person trying to beat the train) i have never heard of anyone going out and having a on perpose. Now to answer your first statement, yes i have had family mebers killed by drunk drivers. Did i try to shut the breweries down did i have the bars closed down nation wide did i sue all the places that sell this product. No. And it is not the best part of my day when we hit someone at a crossing either. It sucks to be truthful. To me all the people that bash us railroaders are like the people who bash cops who haft to make that life or death choice and shoot someone. the man they are chasing has 7 felonies has a gun and points it at a cop they shoot and kill him. Now the community is outraged couse someone got killed the guys mom is on tv saying " he was a good kid never did anything wrong and the police shoot him, he was running couse he was scared" i be scared to if i was going to jail for killing the clerk at the gas station after robbing him and about to go to prison. Well you judged me and even called me names but before you judge me or anyone else take a ride your eyes will be opened for you.

[wabash1]

Ed and gdc

in regards to the aboved mentioned statements about the coffee and other things. I have come to a conclusion. I just bought a pair of boots and they made my feet hurt. there was no warning in the box that said that until these are broke in that there will be no dicomfort to my feet. I am now looking for a lawyer to take my case for profit against the manufacture of these boots for making my feet hurt and costing me sleep pain and anguish not to mention a day off from work, the possible blisters i might get if i continue to wear them. 1.5 mil should be enough.

[edblysard]

Where did you buy thoses boots, and do they have another pair in the same kind if box?
Ed

[edblysard]

Great idea, sounds like common sense.
Ed

[corwinda]

I know of an interesting crossing setup in Springfield Oregon. A crossing (On the spur to a major paper plant) has normal crossing gates, and the road has an intersection with a traffic light a hundred feet or so on either side of the crosing. At least from the south (I haven't seen the north side when a train is on the crossing) the traffic light for through traffic stays red as long as the gates are down.

[Anonymous]

This is another great and simple soultion to a common problem. That is IF people stop for the red light. At least once a month I almost get clobered by morons FLYING thru red lights in West Allis Wi. Now tell a cop to patrol all the intercetions or rr X-ings....Good luck! At least stop lights work for most of us (the ones with common sense).
Icemanmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

You do have a very valid point in that I haven't seen it through the front window of a loco. And I don't think that you can steer out of the way or control a driver. And I certainly don't bash engineers, I have the highest respects for the ones I know. It seemed to me that you were saying you would continue even IF you could prevent something, that is where I would apply my opinion. Not in a situation where you were 2 feet from a vehicle or nothing COULD be done. In 100% of the collsions ( I don't believe in accidents) I have responded to involving a train, it was the motorists fault; nothing could have been done by the engineer to prevent it. Finally, I wasn't judging you or calling you names. To revise my statement for clarity, would you or would you not agree, that it would take a very callused heart to proceed with an action that is likely to cause serious injury or death, to the person that is at fault to begin with, even if that action could have been stopped and prevented the entire situation?

[Anonymous]

Seems to me the nation wide consensus is that motorists are idiots or their are some very serious issues with rr crossings everywhere except where I live (TN)

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Since drunk drivers came up,I believe that should be the main concern.Drunk Drivers kill more people then the railroads do in a years time and most often then not these murders of the highways goes scott free after paying a small fine or spend very few days in jail.They get out get drunk drive their car/truck/suv and sooner or later they kill again..

[edblysard]

Sadly, society seems to accept such behavior, and the judicial system seems to reinforce such behavior by allowing convicted drunk drivers behind the wheel again. We view the use of a automobile as a right, not the privilege it really is. But, just like I have suggested with rr crossings, if you dont like how the court deals with them, or dont think the laws are correct, then write your elected officals. Get your friends to write them too. Only if we, the private citizen raise our concerns repeatedly to those we elect, key word there, elect, will things change. If you dont like the grade crossing in your neighborhood, write whoever has jurisdiction over it, and complain, complain loud and long, write a letter on your computer and save it, then send one each week until the person gets tired of hearing from you and does something. Ther has been lots of really great ideas brought up here, dont let them be nothing more than notes on a screen, or idle chat. Write that letter, make a phone call, get your wife, your friends, anyone you can think of to get involved. As long as all we do is complain, without taking any action, no matter how small, then nothing will change.
You all stay frosty,
Ed

[wabash1]

Not being able to read your mind or you read mine. (and other post also) you didnt relize i was talking about the gate crashers. I with out hesitation would big hole my train if i saw a child walking on the rails or scared to move couse of fear and could not get out of the way. or someone stuck on the rails and couldnt get off even if ( and this has happened) 2 cars trying to beat me at a crossing have a accedent in my path i will big hole the train and try and stop. But if you are obviously playing checken with me( this does happen) or trying to beat me (most get away with this) then i wont even reach for the brakes. i hope this clears things up.

The problem with writing is you cant tell the emotions or the true meaning of the authors words or statement it is your mind set that makes it what you want it to be.

[wabash1]

Texas..........lol

[wabash1]

Larry since it was brought up and i dont want to take away from the original reason of this post i will only say this, I had to be in court one morning over a minor traffic issue. and while waiting my turn to beg the judge not to fine me( i lost) I had the privladge of listening to the dui cases the one lawyer was pleading this guys case the judge gave him a trial date and the lawyer said he could not make it couse he was to be in court with the same guy and same judge for this guys 3rd dui case. this perliminary hearing was for the guys 8th dui. Then the case before mine was a girl who was getting ready to go to work but had her mom blocked in with her car so she let her sister a 14yr old non lic driver move the car out of her moms way by backing on to the street letting her mom get out and then pulling in. (while she was in the shower) a cop see this and then tickets both girls one for operating a car with out a lics, the other for letting a non lic driver operate her car. and the drunk probley left in there car to go to the bar.

[Anonymous]

J,
Are you sure $1.5 Million is enough? There is apparently a great deal of emotional trauma you must have suffered, which of course is compensatory. Then there's the ramifications of interstate commerce in this terrible tragedy from which you've suffered immeasurably. If the boots came from Texas and you wore them in Illinois ...well, there you go, at least another Million.
Regards and have a safe day! gdc

[Anonymous]

I completely agree with everything you said. And yes it does clear things up. Thank you for being patient and considerate enough to elaborate on what you said without taking offense. It seems some folks on here are just here to start trouble. I am here to get a little more education and to get a few different perspectives, as I try to do with all my interests. I hope you won't take offense if I ask questoins that seem obvious to real rr's, or ask you to elaborate and/or clarify, that's how I learn. Thanks again.
Bud

[edblysard]

HA HA HA, and you were warning me???
No, really..
Ed

[Anonymous]

It would appear that Ed has mastered the profanity and insulting remarks. I'm having a little trouble finding mine in my posts. Are you sincere when you say "have a safe day"? Does that apply in all situations?
Mike

[Anonymous]

your arrogance oozes through in your posts. If we were all as brilliant as you then there would be no need for lights or gates we would just know when a train is coming

[Anonymous]

You are over qualified to be an engineer. Please tell me how you read there minds to know if they are playing chicken or just don't see you? I would love to know that. Would you consider emergency blasts of the horn or would that be an unreasonable request? Very interesting.....

[Anonymous]

And yet AGAIN......I get attacked! Thanks for your long distance admeration....I hope the editors enjoy it as much as I do. Why do we let this guy keep ranting and raving about personal issues? Last time I checked there where a set of rules that we have to follow and respect............Please do so.
Icemanmmike-Milwaukee

[Anonymous]

Compared to you and Ed, my posting smells like roses. I just do it out of brotherly love and sadness for your lack of compassion for the people who are not trying to play chicken with a train. I wi***he editors would take notice of the profanity and insulting remarks, but that would keep you guys from posting the pro-railroad point of view. So much for that idea

[Anonymous]

To the Editors and Iceman(measure of compassion?)
Lets flash back to some wonderful statements from Ed:
Iceman, dude,
dont let this guy get to you, he dosnt live in the real world anyway. Bet you he is a paralegal for that ambulance chaser who's web site he keeps promoting. Weird, that lawyer thinks having Ralph Naders Green Party endorse him is a plus...Hey, you know what a paralegal is, dont you, someone too stupid, or too lazy to pass their states bar exam. They wanted to be lawyers, but just cant hack it. Everytime you respond to his assinine posts, you just offer him the attention he seeks.
He is one of those who feel that everyone else is responsible for his safty, except himself. I bet you if the woman who sued McDonalds hadn't won there, she would have sued the auto maker for not installing a sturdy enough cup holder to prevent her kids from knocking over that cup of unreasonably hot coffee. Dont know about you, but where I come from, cold coffee sucks. All the grown ups here expect coffee to be hot, and I know if I spill it on myself, it will burn me. I also know enough to make my kids behave in the car, and am smart enough to put things like hot coffee, sharp knives, and firearms somewhere where the little kids cant get to them. Notice this guy keeps using lawyers catch phrases like "unreasonably" hot? Thats lawyer speak for, "yes, we know coffee is suppost to be hot, we just want to sue you, thats our business, so the best we could come up with is "unreasonably" hot. So I guess if this coffee was a few degrees colder, there would have been no suit? How hot is "unreasonably" hot? 180*F? 230*F?
Is obvious that this person has adopted the mind set of most religous fanatics, in that hes right, and if you dont agree with him, your wrong and your evil. He gets uptight when someone calls him something he feels is insulting, but didnt he just call all of us railroaders murders? He acts all suprised that I would take offense to that. His actions show that, because he lacks information on both sides of a issue, and only wants to see his side anyway, the only recourse he has is to call you names, he lacks the skill, knowledge, or common sense to debate any issue intelligently, so he resorts to childlish name calling to get the attention he wants. Treat him the same way I treat my fifteen year old, when she acts like a twerp to get attention, ingnore him, it bugs the heck of people like them. As long as you respond to his twerpey, one sided, ill informed and inflammatory drivel, he has a forum to present his fanatical garbage in. If you ingnore him, maby he will go to another site, like Toys 'R' Us, where he really belongs, and pester them about unreasonably, and ultra dangerous toys.
Stay Froast Iceman...
Ed

Now there is some positive remarks, still love ya Ed. But please wake up to reality.
Mike

[edblysard]

Think I struck a nerve?
Iceman, do what I am going to do, ingnore him.
Not worth the effort anymore, waste of my time and this forums space to even try, waste of your time too.
Stay Frosty
Ed

[Anonymous]

Trust me you haven't struck a nerve. It will take a lot more than that. Hope you guys at least will be more aware of the possible hazards as you travel across your lines. I noticed quite a few things on the tracks where I live both good and bad. On a positive note someone has acknowledged a sight distance problem at a passive crossing and taken care of it and an intersection that would of required you to stop on the tracks if the light was red was realigned to put the traffic lights before the tracks. Progress, thats all we want, both from the Gov. and the railroad industry. Take care guys and be a positive light in an otherwise dark world.
Mike

[sooblue]

It's to bad that people have to get out their flamethrowers and clutter up a perfectly good forum topic with lots of potential ideas worth exploring. If anyone has kept a list of the ideas presented so far it would be nice to list them in a reply. I don't have enough time to read all the posts and I just as soon not have to waste my time looking through the toasty ones.
There is no way to avoid the "FLAMETHROWER".
I've been crisped more than once, sometimes justly and sometimes unjustly, it's not the end of the world either way. Opinions are welcome but there is no reason to fan flames or to grab your own flamethrower and fight back. Has anyone been witness to "flamethrowers" at 40 paces? duels fought with flamethrowers have no winners only cinders.
That said:
We live in an era that is chock full of innovation that is way above what came out of the "industrial revolution". RRs had a BIG roll in the industrial revolution. You could say RRs are behind the times and need to catch up in a lot of areas. They need to embrace new technology. On the other hand the general public needs to remember that the RRs were here first and this country is still and always will be dependent on them. There isn't a better way to transport the goods of a nation than RRs. They make sense even in the 21 century. Closing Crossings in bad areas should be done, but that can't be done in all areas. If people won't stop for a crossing than they have to be forced to stop. But you can't do that in all areas either.
There will always be those who try to cheat. I feel bad for the train crews because there is nothing they can do but watch. The crews need a weapon to fight back with and the law needs teeth.
The best way in my opinion to deal with crossings is to enforce the law. Video transmitted to the engineer direct who upon seeing someone cheat could make a recording on board identifing the cheater. Light beams that when broken activate video and or spray marking paint that police upon seeing would be able to arrest the cheater.
Impounding the vehicle and comunity service than cru***he car right in front of there face and have a live broadcast each week so everyone can see it happen. Crossings are taken too lightly by the general public that's the real problem.
Sooblue

[Anonymous]

Being the conservative radical I am, I would have to agree with the car crushings. Perhaps for good measure a good lashing could be thrown in. I do happen to have some sniper experience also, perhaps a post near a "high problem" area is in order. I'm also thinking maybe we could just have the engineers personally, at their convenience, drag the law breaker out of their cars and kick the living sh** out of them whilst their children, spouse and parents watch. My services are obtainable for a small fee, usually personal satisfaction in hardhship cases. I can be reached at [e-mail]

[Anonymous]

What wonderful posts. You guys shed such a positive light on the insiders thoughts about the rail crossing problem that I have to wear a welding hood. I presume that you think Mr. Snow is a wonderful choice for the Feds as well. How does your Union feel about this? Same as you? Keep paying those dues...

[edblysard]

Hi Blue,
So far we have, Double arm gates, baricades both in the center line and at the edges of crossings, to prevent drive arounds. Hi intensity leds instead of plain reds lights, lighted amber Xs, also hi intensity, louder horns instead of bells at crossing, elmination of crossing where poss. drop down rods or baracaides on the underside of arms to prevent drive unders. Video surveilance, and citations based on that. Public education, school kids emphasised. All we need now are disposable flamethrower cartridges, in the industrial size. Think Wal Mart has any left?
Ed

[Anonymous]

“There are approximately 160,000 public highway-railroad intersections, of which only 20% have gates. And even when there are audible warning devices, they may 'fail' to meet their objective of alerting motorists to an oncoming train because of highway vehicle design and environmental factors.” As a result, more than 90 percent of all rail-related fatalities involved either grade crossings or trespassers, and of these deaths approximately 60 percent occur at crossings with only passive warning devices.” (NTSB Safety Study, July 21, 1998)
Sounds like everything is being taken care of.
20%, Wow!!!

[mudchicken]

Please add:

(1) For anyone caught running gates or involved in a train-auto while driving and being one of the 99% at fault: 5 year loss of driving priviledges, hit 'em where it really hurts. (Driving is not a "right" even though iceman probably has been mis-informed on this too).

(2)Public pressure on Congress to fund provisions of TEA-21 (and soon TEA-3) along with dramatically increasing the paltry federal Section 400/402 money that amounts to 2-3 Million a year for Grade Separation and crossing gate monies for each state. At $1.5 Million+ per bridge and $225,000 for a set of 4 quadrant gates, the Section 400 funding does not go far. TEA-21 had provisions for safety upgrades at crossings THAT NEVER WAS FUNDED. What IS really criminal is that monies were allocated on rails-to-trails and beautification. How that equates to "transportation efficiency" in ISTEA in the minds of the wonky politicians of the years since ISTEA came to be is a mystery to most. The money would have been better spent on safety issues.

(3) State transportation departments: change your name back to highway department until you can validly say you are funding the steel wheeled issues proportionately to the rubber tired crowd (i.e. the truck lobby)and you have legitimately trained railroaders (and not just "transit" with all its wannabe's) on staff - 80% can't say that.

(4) For Iceman and his ilk: Please talk to as many OLI presenters as you can (I vote for all). Your misinformed "cheap shots" should start to wear on your conscience after the first few. These folks are legitimately concerned about grade crossing safety, railroaders or not. I work around these folks on a regular basis, they are for real and they just got a new volunteer.

'nuf said,
Mudchicken


PS-the number of tresspassers killed each year is increasing while the number of vehicle accidents and fatalities drops. People continue to get dumber, except they're not behind the wheel anymore. Frightening.....Is the "sign entrapment guy" in the other post next?

[sooblue]

*lol*-laughing out loud-
Can you be a conservative radical?
That means your so conservative that you appear radical to the conservatives...right?

What topic would you like? OH! I just remembered I have a topic! An update on welded rail.
Sooblue

[sooblue]

Hi Ed,
Now I'm not just *lol* I'm clapping as well!!
I dawn gortex myself.

You could add a ultra high intensity noise that would have the same effect as fenceless dog control does, for walk arrounds. The noise would be so loud that the drivers waiting at the crossing would get out of their cars and smack the offender.
I think each of the Ideas that you listed are worth trying. I wonder how much it would cost. You could say it would be worth it if just one life and the crew trama associated with that death would be eliminated. Maybe crossings are what the government should help pay for... OH OH!
Sooblue

[edblysard]

I agree. Most crossings are not the property of the railroad anyway, we dont like things on the tracks, except trains. They belong to the local or state agency that supervises and designs streets. They do get federal funds for their projects, but fail to spend it on grade crossings. The FRA has a grade seperation and crossing closeure program, but its woefully underfunded also. In essence, the crossing belongs to the public who uses it, and if they dont like what devices are present, they should grip and complain to their elected represenitives. And so far, I have managed to get by with wet bath towels, after all, why bring gortex to a girl scout marshmellow roast?
Stay Frosty,
Ed

[sooblue]

Hi,
You sound like you are informed and have done your homework. I tend to agree with you on points 1,2,and 3. I won't get into point 4.

In point one you mentioned "driving is not a right" Boy I hate that saying. Unless you live and work in downtown whatever and can walk every where driving isn't a right it's a necessity.
In 1903 it was a horse and buggy, in 2003 it's a car or truck. Money well spent would be for a much better driver ed. program, one that turns the student into a professional. Skid school even!
When you’re done with the course you ARE a professional. If you can't pass the full course than you get a restricted license.

Point 2, I used to make the steel pedestals for quadrant gates at a business called RR accessories
in Mpls. They don't cost that much to make or install, But they do when "government money" is involved. When the "government" finally stands up and says, "this is what the PEOPLE will pay and no more" than suddenly the cost overruns will magically disappear. If the "big boys" refuse to bid on a project screw them and give one of the small shops a chance. The "big boys" will come back on board.

Point 3, two thumbs up! However, until all forms of transportation are worked together to compliment each other there will only be more headbutting/buttheading *smile*

Everyone has their own agenda; working together should be the first agenda!

Sooblue

[sooblue]

*lol*
Oh! The Girl Scouts burned down their clubhouse next door to my aunts house during a weenie roast.

Sooblue

[Anonymous]

Ah...I think your targeting the wrong person. I actualy drive for my job, not one to brag but I driven aprox 100,000 miles in the last 3 years 70,000 miles in my own car. Im the LAST person who looks at driving as a right. I had to wait till I was 18 to get my licence while all the lil punks where driving momys Explorer. What kind of moron would take driving as a privilage?

As for OLI I acualy put a link directly to their web sight on my own webpage....Acualy I thought of that idea and brought this thought to THIS discuision. I highly recomend every one in this discuision to visit their website - www.oli.org !!
Please go back, read this extremly long post and see how many good post there was. And yes it does get alittle ugly in parts, but this post was made (by ED) to bring out ways we can help. Now do you have any ideas or do you plan on attacking me some more?
Icemanmike-MILWAUKEE

[Anonymous]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CIV
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 1995 [phone]
TDD [phone]



CSX PAYS U.S. $5.9 MILLION TO SETTLE MISCHARGING CLAIMS

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- CSX Transportation Inc. will pay the
United States $5.9 million to settle claims the company
overcharged the government millions of dollars for railroad
crossing signals installed under a federal safety program, the
Department of Justice announced today.
Assistant Attorney General Frank W. Hunger, in charge of the
Civil Division, said the agreement settles claims that CSX
Transportation inflated labor hours for wiring signal houses;
failed to obtain the lowest price possible from third-party
vendors for parts; and overcharged for certain parts by selling
them at a profit to third-party vendors, then repurchased the
parts and charged the United States the higher repurchase price.
Funds for the railroad signal crossing equipment, which were
installed primarily in southeastern states, were provided under
the Rail Highways Crossing Program administered by the Federal-Aid
Highway Program of the Department of Transportation. The
federal government provides 90 percent of the money for the
program with the states providing 10 percent in matching funds.
Hunger said A. David Nelson, a former employee of CSX
Transportation, brought the matter to the government's attention
in February 1993, then filed a qui tam suit March 17, 1994, in
U.S. District Court in Jacksonville, Florida, under the False
Claims Act, 31 U.S.C.  3729.
A two-year investigation by the Department of
Transportation's Office of Inspector General and Florida
Department of Transportation confirmed the allegations.
In April 1993, CSX Transportation voluntarily refunded $2.1
million to 18 states as an adjustment to amounts billed for the
construction of signals at grade crossings and on January 11,
1995, CSX Transportation agreed to pay Florida and 11 of the 18
states $1.4 million for adjusted costs related to grade crossing
signals.
In addition to the money CSX Transportation has paid the
United States and the states, the company also must absorb all of
its expenses, including legal and accounting costs incurred in
this matter.
The settlement resolves any potential claims by the United
States against CSX Transportation under the False Claims Act for
fraud and under common law concerning allegations of cost
mischarging to the Rail Highways Crossing Program.
Pursuant to the False Claims Act, Nelson will receive
$1,180,000 of the settlement.
#####
95-520

[edblysard]

Humm, guess they didnt read the handbook on fire safty, or attend weenie awarness week. Maby they should sue the weinee maker for making ultra dangerous and unreasonably hot and flammable weeines.
Fire? what fire? dont need gortex anymore, the delete button works better.
Stay frosty, (pun intended)
Ed

[sooblue]

POWER TO THE PEOPLE !!
Now we just need to get back our money from the other 100,000+ theifs.

Sooblue

[wabash1]

it is not hard to do. if a tresspasser is standing facing you ready to bolt away and does so then its chicken if he is walking away from you and doesnt look back to see you couse he never heard you or the warning blast becouse they had ear phones on then its not chicken. as far as cars goes when the see you comming becouse they are driving right beside you and race you for the crossing that is stupid. if they are comming up the road and lights are flashing and they drive right up to the tracks look both ways and then stair at you judging your speed then take off that is stupid, and one other observation is they stare at you as they drive in front of you and leave they do see you its hard not to. but i dont exspect you to take my word for it. as your mind is made up we are all mean people that kill people at road crossings. have a good day.

[wabash1]

Well i am not sure now. ill let my lawyers figure that out for me. im sure we can find a jury somewhere that can be lead to believe my story.lol