British Railway Operations

[nanaimo73]

Thank you. That clears things up.

[Anonymous]

Nanaimo, I dont know quite where to start with your post. The grouping ocured not long after the first world war when the government merged the railways into THE BIG 4 on 1st January 1923. The big 4 were the LMS, London & North Eastern (LNER), Great Western (GWR) and Southern Railway. The LMS was the largest and ran from London Euston to Birmingham, Liverpool, North Wales, Manchester, Lancashire and Glasgow. In Scotland the situation got somewhat confused as the LMS (The West Coast Route) also ran to Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness which are geographically in the east of Scotland. The LMS also served Licester, Nottingham and Sheffield from London Saint Pancras. The LNER ran from London Kings Cross to Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen. It also ran from London Liverpool Street to Cambridge, Ipswich and Norwich, a territory it had to itself. The GWR ran from London Paddington to Birningham, Bristol, South Wales, Plymouth and the West Country. GWR fans generally have a chip on each shoulder and say things like "there are two ways to do something, the GWR way and the wrong way" Lastly the Southern ran fron several South London termini to places like Dover, Folkstone, Brighton, Hastings, Portsmouth, Plymouth and Exeter and the West Country. The Southern ran what was probably the buisiest suburban network in the world between the wars and in some ways perfected many operating practices that are still current, with regular interval time tables, EMU's for all classes of sevice and continous electrification as a way of uping train miles and cutting operating expenses. There was a core that each railway called its' own but they did overlap at mant places, however where they did overlap they generally served different intermidiate points.

Before the grouping even the smallest railways built thier own locomotives and this carried on during the Big 4 era. There were many private locomotive builders in Britain, but thay only tended to get orders from home railways when the railways own workshops were too busy. In this case they builder would get a complete set of drawings from the railway and build to an exact spec. The two largest private builders were Bayer, Peacock of Manchester and North British Locomotive Co of Glasgow. most of thier products were exported to the British Empire and South America.

In 1948 The Big 4 were nationalised. They had plans for the future involving Deisel Traction in the case of LMS and LNER, Gas Turbines for the GWR and more electrification for the Southern, but apart from a few prototipes ordered before nationalisation nothing was done for a few years after nationalisation to replace steam. The LMS managed to turn out a mainline deisel with LMS on the side, but the GWR's gas turbine locos were not delivered until after nationalisation. The LNER acepted tenders for 32 prototype diesels but thse were cancelled by the government on nationalisation.

I hope that whets your appitite on British Railway History.

[nanaimo73]

Thanks Murphy.
First of all, I'm wondering about the Groupings that took place (1948 ?). From what I understand there were over 100 different companies operating until the 1920s when a bunch of mergers brought the number down to about 30 or 40. I believe after WW2 the Government forced the strong railways to take over the weak resulting in 4 railways. I think they were the Southern, the Great Western, the London, Midland and Scottish and the 4th up through Newcastle. Could someone please tell me the rough geographic areas each covered ?
I am also wondering about how these railways aquired their steam locomotives. In the United States most of the railways designed their own locomotives (along with the builders) and told one of the three builders (Lima, Baldwin or ALCo) what to build. Did the railways in the U.K. build their own steam or were there builders, and who designed the locomotives ? When did the 4 railways stop acquiring steam, and did they stay with Belpaire fireboxes till the end ?
Thanks.

Murphy Siding,
My laziness results from spending 1 or 2 hours a day with this mess-
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44086
Hopefully I'll be done this week.

[Murphy Siding]

I was going to respond to a post that was on here this morning, by nanaimo73,but it's gone now.[:O]. He was asking about whether a couple subjects that interested him had come up in this thread-namely British steam, and the 1948(?) nationalization of the industry. Being too *lazy* (his words-not mine)[;)] to go back and read all 15 pages, he asked whether he should start a new thread.

My answer(s) is(are) this: We've covered a little bit of everything on this thread, from British diesels to outhouses! I've learned a lot on this thread. The British seem to have a railroad system similar to ours,except everything seems to be different.[:)]. There are approximately a dozen British railfans on here that are willing to share with us about their system. I like that they are always willing to answer questions, and are always so polite! (No one has yet to call me any names,or metion that I don't know what I'm talking about.)
As most of my knowledge comes from reading the Railway Series of children's books,and watching Thomas the Tank Engine with my kids, I have a lot to learn.
nanaimo73: please ask lots of questions of our British friends.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

The railways in Wales, Scotland and England are all run as one pretty much. Northern Ireland is a little different as (I think) they may have a different gauge - certainly the railways in the Republic of Ireland (south of the border) are broad gauge. There's no bridge or tunnel across the Irish Sea so any interchange involves either sea or air travel.

The Northern Ireland Railways is still a state owned, vertically integrated company, as is Iarnrod Eireann, its counterpart in the Irish Republic. The Irish standard gauge is 5' 3" which was chosen as a compromise between the 4' 8.5" of the Dublin and Kingstown (now Dun Laoghaire) Railway and the 6' 2" of the Ulster Railway. (An official from the Irish Office of the then UK Govt rounded these figures to 4' 6" and 6' and took the average, which is 5' 3". The only other countries where this gauge is found are certain Australia states (Victoria I think) and Brazil, where Irish builders were employed.

The political border between Northern Ireland and the Republic is the border between the two rail companies but the Belfast - Dublin service is operated jointly with NIR crews working thru to Dublin and IE crews to Belfast. Nowadays the two companies not only use the same stock and locos but the stock used is painted in the same livery. The NIR have a large fleet of DMU's used on Belfast commuter services, these also run across the border to Dundalk. Sometimes when a major sporting event takes place in Dublin, particularly a 6 Nations Rugby match, these DMU's will be pressed into service for extra trains and IE sometimes borrow them to put on extra local services.

[Anonymous]

I would be interested in comparing British operations with what has been going on
in Sweden and Norway, for instance, on the mainland Europe, where operations such
as Lynx [Sweden] passenger service appeared. It also was warned about its costs and
operation of passenger trains seemed at one time in jeopardy, though I don't think
that has happened. Have we any Swedish participants who can tell us what the
current state of affairs is there? Theo Sommerkamp [e-mail]

[Anonymous]

The railways in Wales, Scotland and England are all run as one pretty much. Northern Ireland is a little different as (I think) they may have a different gauge - certainly the railways in the Republic of Ireland (south of the border) are broad gauge. There's no bridge or tunnel across the Irish Sea so any interchange involves either sea or air travel. The only problems arise from some of the old GWR lines (and preserved stock). The GWR was originally laid by Brunel as a broad gauge system, when they regauged the lines they took advantage of the extra "elbow room" to build stock to slightly wider dimensions causing chaos when they run on other lines. I know there's one type of DMU that was built recently to similar width (Class 165), there may be other types.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

In my part of the world, "loo" is the name for a little building OUT behind the farm HOUSE.[;)]

In my part of the world i.e. Canada, we call it the "outhouse", "loo"and many less polite names if it's an outdoor cabin affair. "Loo", a very British expression, does indeed have a connection to the outhouse, being a corruption of "Gardez l'eau" from the Norman French (watch out for the water), used in the days when the overnight contents of the thunder pot were heaved out into the street. There's a scene in "Shakespeare in Love" where Geoffrey Rush dashing down a street narrowly misses being showered as the housekeeper upstairs cries "Gardez l'eau".

Interesting how we get off topic on some of these threads!
[:D]
[:D]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

Quick rundown. The Uk is split into two kingdoms (England, Scotland); one Principality (Wales) and one Province (Ulster or Northern ireland). Attached are various Islands (Isle of Man and the Channel Islands) which are self governing and have their own ways in various degrees - i.e. the Channel Islands have a lower and differing tax system then the rest of the UK. The Kingdom as a whole is split into counties which have in many cases thier own identity (although sadly this is trying to be extinguished) and in some cases language and culture.

Cornwall is the county which occupies the peninsular in the far South West of the United Kingdom. It has four basic industries - tourism; farming; fishing and china clay. it is the poorest county in England as a result. The indigenious residents of Cornwall (the Cornish) are a very anti England bunch in some respects. This is because the Cornish, uniquely I think in ENGLAND (emphasis here) have a language; patron Saint and culture (they would argue) then the bunch the other side of the River Tamar. If you are from Cornwall you are Cornish. That is the term. The County town (administrative centre) of Cornwall is Truro (City of) - incidentally you are only allowed to be a city in the Uk by a) havaing a Cathedral and b) by having a Royal Charter. It is relatively isololated in terms of transport from the rest here. The ruling line speed on the Main Line (the only line really) from Penzance to London thru the county is roughly 65 MPH. There are various branches which serve seaside towns like St Ives (famous for its artists); Falmouth (for its boats); Looe (as ealier); Newquay (atlantic surf resort) and Gunnislake ( a branch which a trip on basically tkaes you back 50 years in time). There are various freight branches which serve the China Clay industry as well. Apart from a few isolated pockets of lights; the signalling system is absolute block and semaphore. This is not because we are technologically backward; this is because it is a) cheap and b) will cost far too much to replace and never make a return. Roughly 65 trains per day passenger and 5-10 freight depending on where you are. I my part of the world I see two freight trains per week.

Kingdoms? Principalities? Providenses? and Counties? I would think the country as a whole is run by the central government, with a multitude of smaller, overlapping govenment bodies-like our states.counties, etcetera? Do the railroads have any special difficulties in running between different kingdoms/counties, etcetera, or is it pretty streamlined?

Thanks

[Murphy Siding]

In my part of the world, "loo" is the name for a little building OUT behind the farm HOUSE.[;)]

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Isambard - Looe is the name of a town

Yes, not to be confused with "loo, as in gardez loo (l'eau)", but what's "(as ealier)" reference?

[Tulyar15]

Isambard - Looe is the name of a town

MurhpySiding, the horseshoes were put in to enable the line to get up to the same altitude as the main line. The branch existed before the main line, it used to run even further up the valley to serve some mines. When the main line opened the sharply curved link line was put in.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

I'm surprised that sleeper trains are still run in the UK. What is the schedule for London Penzance? Great Western presumably? How about other overnights out of London?
[:)]

As well as the "Night Riviera" from London Paddington to Penzance, which is operated by Great Western (but may be axed next year when GW's franchise comes up for renewal, though there's a lot of opposition), there's also the sleeper trains to Inverness, Aberdeen and Fort William which run from London Euston and are operated by ScotRail (with locos hired from EWS). These also serve Edinburgh and in the case of the Fort William one, Glasgow too.

Murphy Siding - there are some horseshoe bends on some of the lines in Scotland and Wales. The steepest gradient on the national network is 1 in 27 (3.7%) which is in the Mersey Tunnel between Liverpool (James St) and Birkenhead.

One line which has two 180degree bends is the Liskeard - Looe branch in Cornwall. It starts at Liskeard where the branch platform is at 90 degrees to the main line ones (Liskead is on the main line from Plymouth to Penzance). It then goes round the first 180 degree bend, under the main line then another 180 degree bend to get it to Combe Junction. According to the locals if you miss the branch train after its left Liskeard you can run down the hill and catch it at Combe Junction. There it reverses and carries on down to Looe but there's also a freight only line which carries straight on at Combe and goes under the main line again. This has been upgraded so that class 66's can now run on it but they must screech a lot going round the sharp curves, especially the one which connects the branch to the main line. I should also add that the junction at Liskeard is still controlled by an old fashioned mechanical signal box ("control tower") with semaphore signals.

If the Looe branch did not exist and someone made a model it would be dismissed as unrealistic. But this is one example of reality stranger than fiction!

From the map that nanaimo73 posted, the horseshoe curve looks like it was inserted in the line just for giggles.[;)]. Can't tell from the map,of course, but that must be some very hilly country?.

Thanks

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73
This site as a bloody map of yer horseshoe. Just look down a bit.
http://www.paulcorinmusic.com/

You might like this as well laddy
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Aye![oX)] There it is! (it's difficult to talk with a British accent on a message board)[(-D]. Thanks.



Is there an international terraserver site?

A Norwegian Dakotain meets the Pirates of Penzance.

I think this is it. I don't know how to zoom with this service.
http://www.terraserver.com/imagery/image_gx.asp?cpx=-4.4538608875281165&cpy=50.45413182311072&res=30&provider_id=340&t=pan
Thats the best a United supporter can do.

This site has a picture of a Scottish steamer that came through Nanaimo when I was a wee lad.
http://www.fortsteele.bc.ca/business/main/railway.asp

Looking hard for that steamer at "Fort Steele Stream Railway"! Down by the old mill stream? [:D] Am I missing something?
[:)]

P.S. Hah! Just realized that the Scottish steamer was a locomotive and not a ship seen at the harbour! A truly awful mistake for a dedicated steam locomotive hugger to make.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

cogload: Thanks for the geograpy lesson.[:)]. It sounds like the relationship between Cornwall and England is perhaps similar to the relationship of Quebec and Canada? It sounds like a lot of people there get around on the trains. Is the lack of freight trains because lots gets moved by truck, or because there is not much freight to move?

Thanks

Thanks also to Cogload for a very good summary of the social/political relationship of Cornwall to the rest of England.
Yes, there are some similarities to the Canada/Quebec relationship, except the French language is alive and well in Quebec, whereas the Cornish language (a Celtic language like Welsh) died out from common use in the 1700's. Cornwall was famous for its many tin mines, which dated back to Roman times and which began to peter out in the 1800's. That combined with gold rushes in California, Australia, South Africa and the Yukon resulted in the emigration of thousands of miners and their families to those parts, and to anywhere there was serious mining or tunneling going on.

I read somewhere on this forum that China clay is exported to Scotland (another very independent minded entity) in slurry form, maybe some of those freight trains seen by Cogload? It would be interesting to see what these cars look like.

I'm not sure wot Cogload is referring to in "Looe (as ealier)". Maybe eels the fishy things or---? [:)]

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73
This site as a bloody map of yer horseshoe. Just look down a bit.
http://www.paulcorinmusic.com/

You might like this as well laddy
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Aye![oX)] There it is! (it's difficult to talk with a British accent on a message board)[(-D]. Thanks.



Is there an international terraserver site?

A Norwegian Dakotain meets the Pirates of Penzance.

I think this is it. I don't know how to zoom with this service.
http://www.terraserver.com/imagery/image_gx.asp?cpx=-4.4538608875281165&cpy=50.45413182311072&res=30&provider_id=340&t=pan
Thats the best a United supporter can do.

This site has a picture of a Scottish steamer that came through Nanaimo when I was a wee lad.
http://www.fortsteele.bc.ca/business/main/railway.asp

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Neat! I'll have to try and find that on terraserver. Liskeard is the name of the town? I take it that's in England,not Scotland?

Thanks

Murphy: If you find it please post the link. It sounds like an interesting layout possibility!
[:)]

Here's a good link for UK maps: http://www.multimap.com/map/home.cgi?client=public&lang=&advanced=&db=GB

I'm searching.[:)] I'm not smart enough to post a link, but if I find it, maybe I can get nanaimo73 to link it for me.[:)]

When you find the website its http//www address should appear in the address bar of your internet browser bar. Using the usual edit routine swipe over the complete address and copy it to the clipboard. Then paste the address from the clipboard wherever you want in the message being posted. Voila, link posted!
[:)]

You truly overestimate my computer capabilities. nanaimo73 did find something about it, and posted it on the horseshoe curve post.

[Murphy Siding]

cogload: Thanks for the geograpy lesson.[:)]. It sounds like the relationship between Cornwall and England is perhaps similar to the relationship of Quebec and Canada? It sounds like a lot of people there get around on the trains. Is the lack of freight trains because lots gets moved by truck, or because there is not much freight to move?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Quick rundown. The Uk is split into two kingdoms (England, Scotland); one Principality (Wales) and one Province (Ulster or Northern ireland). Attached are various Islands (Isle of Man and the Channel Islands) which are self governing and have their own ways in various degrees - i.e. the Channel Islands have a lower and differing tax system then the rest of the UK. The Kingdom as a whole is split into counties which have in many cases thier own identity (although sadly this is trying to be extinguished) and in some cases language and culture.

Cornwall is the county which occupies the peninsular in the far South West of the United Kingdom. It has four basic industries - tourism; farming; fishing and china clay. it is the poorest county in England as a result. The indigenious residents of Cornwall (the Cornish) are a very anti England bunch in some respects. This is because the Cornish, uniquely I think in ENGLAND (emphasis here) have a language; patron Saint and culture (they would argue) then the bunch the other side of the River Tamar. If you are from Cornwall you are Cornish. That is the term. The County town (administrative centre) of Cornwall is Truro (City of) - incidentally you are only allowed to be a city in the Uk by a) havaing a Cathedral and b) by having a Royal Charter. It is relatively isololated in terms of transport from the rest here. The ruling line speed on the Main Line (the only line really) from Penzance to London thru the county is roughly 65 MPH. There are various branches which serve seaside towns like St Ives (famous for its artists); Falmouth (for its boats); Looe (as ealier); Newquay (atlantic surf resort) and Gunnislake ( a branch which a trip on basically tkaes you back 50 years in time). There are various freight branches which serve the China Clay industry as well. Apart from a few isolated pockets of lights; the signalling system is absolute block and semaphore. This is not because we are technologically backward; this is because it is a) cheap and b) will cost far too much to replace and never make a return. Roughly 65 trains per day passenger and 5-10 freight depending on where you are. I my part of the world I see two freight trains per week.

[martin.knoepfel]

Cornwall is a peninsula in the south-west of the British islands. I you look at a map of Britain, it is located at bottom left (North ist up).

[Murphy Siding]

Ignorant American here: What is Cornwall? And, does that make you a Cornwallian?[:)]

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Steady know steady. I live and work in Cornwall..........

Cheers Railroading Brit - Kington is very pleasant.

Tony - a succinct/ pithy translation.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Neat! I'll have to try and find that on terraserver. Liskeard is the name of the town? I take it that's in England,not Scotland?

Thanks

Murphy: If you find it please post the link. It sounds like an interesting layout possibility!
[:)]

Here's a good link for UK maps: http://www.multimap.com/map/home.cgi?client=public&lang=&advanced=&db=GB

I'm searching.[:)] I'm not smart enough to post a link, but if I find it, maybe I can get nanaimo73 to link it for me.[:)]

When you find the website its http//www address should appear in the address bar of your internet browser bar. Using the usual edit routine swipe over the complete address and copy it to the clipboard. Then paste the address from the clipboard wherever you want in the message being posted. Voila, link posted!
[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Neat! I'll have to try and find that on terraserver. Liskeard is the name of the town? I take it that's in England,not Scotland?

Thanks

Murphy: If you find it please post the link. It sounds like an interesting layout possibility!
[:)]

Here's a good link for UK maps: http://www.multimap.com/map/home.cgi?client=public&lang=&advanced=&db=GB

I'm searching.[:)] I'm not smart enough to post a link, but if I find it, maybe I can get nanaimo73 to link it for me.[:)].

[Isambard]

QUOTE: [i]
But the people are a tad inbread though (the kid from Deliverance could easily be Cornish).

Ah, now there's a provocative statement! Although I've not seen Deliverance I can imagine that the kid is not a Mensa member.
You are speaking of the land of my paternal ancestors! Invidious comments like that are grounds for provoking an uprising by the people of Kernewack heritage !
[:D]

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Neat! I'll have to try and find that on terraserver. Liskeard is the name of the town? I take it that's in England,not Scotland?

Thanks

Murphy: If you find it please post the link. It sounds like an interesting layout possibility!
[:)]

Here's a good link for UK maps: http://www.multimap.com/map/home.cgi?client=public&lang=&advanced=&db=GB

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

While I'm fairly certain there are no horseshoe curves or loops in Britain, (?) I'm guessing that the grades are pretty flat. Trains with one freight engine don't strike me as hill climbers. What are some of the steeper grades still in use?


Thanks

To my shame, I have to admit I haven't yet "done" our Ffestiniog Railway, so I have to ask my UK co-corrrespondents whether they can confirm the Dduallt diversion on that line qualifies as a loop.

PS Dduallt is Black Hill in Welsh.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Neat! I'll have to try and find that on terraserver. Liskeard is the name of the town? I take it that's in England,not Scotland?

Thanks

Liskeard is a town in Cornwall,, it's that bit the sticks out to the left at the bottom if you look on a map. It kinda looks like a claw. It's a nice place, lovely scenery etc.. But the people are a tad inbread though (the kid from Deliverance could easily be Cornish).

[Murphy Siding]

Neat! I'll have to try and find that on terraserver. Liskeard is the name of the town? I take it that's in England,not Scotland?

Thanks

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

I'm surprised that sleeper trains are still run in the UK. What is the schedule for London Penzance? Great Western presumably? How about other overnights out of London?
[:)]

As well as the "Night Riviera" from London Paddington to Penzance, which is operated by Great Western (but may be axed next year when GW's franchise comes up for renewal, though there's a lot of opposition), there's also the sleeper trains to Inverness, Aberdeen and Fort William which run from London Euston and are operated by ScotRail (with locos hired from EWS). These also serve Edinburgh and in the case of the Fort William one, Glasgow too.

Murphy Siding - there are some horseshoe bends on some of the lines in Scotland and Wales. The steepest gradient on the national network is 1 in 27 (3.7%) which is in the Mersey Tunnel between Liverpool (James St) and Birkenhead.

One line which has two 180degree bends is the Liskeard - Looe branch in Cornwall. It starts at Liskeard where the branch platform is at 90 degrees to the main line ones (Liskead is on the main line from Plymouth to Penzance). It then goes round the first 180 degree bend, under the main line then another 180 degree bend to get it to Combe Junction. According to the locals if you miss the branch train after its left Liskeard you can run down the hill and catch it at Combe Junction. There it reverses and carries on down to Looe but there's also a freight only line which carries straight on at Combe and goes under the main line again. This has been upgraded so that class 66's can now run on it but they must screech a lot going round the sharp curves, especially the one which connects the branch to the main line. I should also add that the junction at Liskeard is still controlled by an old fashioned mechanical signal box ("control tower") with semaphore signals.

If the Looe branch did not exist and someone made a model it would be dismissed as unrealistic. But this is one example of reality stranger than fiction!